1. We had six players, to only five pregens. I threw in the DDXP Warlock to our sixth player, and added an extra monster to each encounter. No real issues so far(haven't had to advance the Warlock with the powers from the KotS Wizard yet).
2. After running a few demo battles and one night of KotS, it seems to be that the most helpful DM skill is going to be organization. Having minis, markers for various conditions, a "cup of dice" with a fixed order to read the dice in (1-red, 2-blue, 3-green...) for monster initiative and area attacks, putting little dots in paint or whiteout on minis so you can keep track of which kobold as taken 10 damage, ect. One thing I missed is I definitely need to print out initiative sheets, or find some other way to handle that.
3. There is a small learning curve to this game. The funny thing is that the people who were "good" at 3E had more problems than our newer players.
4. One of our players, who hasn't been sold on 4E, had a negative attitude coming in. I didn't put up with him trying to be disruptive and being silly, and after a player/DM spat over resolving a situation that could have happened in any system, I ended up running his character while he just paged through my White Wolf books for the rest of the night.
5. Fighters and Paladins are tough, Rogues dart around and tear things to shreads, the Wizard has the biggest guns, and the Cleric gets to actually do stuff(to the surprise of us all). Its amazing how things work the way they are supposed to in this game. To be more specific:
Fighter--I think he took as much damage as the rest of the party combined. He was played with no regard whatsoever for his own safety, and was rewarded for it. The more aggressive he was, the more impact he had on the game.
Paladin--20AC was tough, and the Paladin was never in the danger the Fighter seemed to find himself in. Our least "optimized" 3E player had the Paladin, and was the only one to use every power on his sheet and IMO used his character to its peak than anyone else. With Dragon Breath, his divine strength thing, and a few other things the Paladin had a lot of combos.
Rogue--Not surprisingly dealt a lot of damage. Since he was almost universally flanking, he tended to have +10 to his attack rolls and rarely missed. Really got going once he realized that between Artful Dodger and being a halfling he could pretty much go wherever he wanted without consequences. He once walked through three Kobolds, took three AoOs, two misses and a crit, used his Halfling dodge against the crit which then missed, then hit with sly flourish and sneak attack dropping something. Having two defenders marking things around him also helps a lot.
Wizard--Scorching Burst wasn't always available, but nasty when it was. The Wizard suprisingly was more brittle than I expected. I was mean and had enemies hit her whenever possible since she looked squishy. She could take a hit, but definitely not three. The Wizard was actually most safe two to three squares away from the main melee, since defenders had the enemies marked and vulnerable to AoOs, while providing cover against enemy ranged attackers. Farther away and she got shot full of holes. Most impressive was the Burning Hands power, used by a player brave enough to move in real close for it to go off.
Cleric--I absolutely love what they've done with this class. For all the joy that is 4E defenders, its just amazing that the Cleric seems to be able to do everything it needs to do while beating on things to the same degree everyone else seems to.
Warlock--The cranky player had this, and really was just going through the motions. He just used Eldritch blast every turn without even bothering to use Warlock's Curse. The Warlock didn't get interesting until I started controlling it. During a fight where the combat didn't start immediately, the Warlock walked straight up to the enemies ahead of everybody else. He said he was Eldritch Blasting the enemy leader just as I was going to order the attack. I made everybody roll initiative, with only him, the enemy leader, and the enemies who acted after the leader able to attack that round. He rolled a 1 for initiative and got angry(he didn't know or believe me that I was about to attack) and pretty much stopped playing at that point. Since he everyone else was further behind, he got swarmed during the first round though he survived. The defenders made it in for round two, and along with Scorching Burst clearing out the minions, during round two the now controlled by me Warlock moved six squares away from the combat(he was no longer threatened by anyone not marked by the Paladin), cursed something, Witchfired and killed it, and teleported three squares on top of a ledge.
6. We had time for three battles. Two characters went unconscious, once for the Fighter and once for the Wizard. The Wizard was KOed during mop up time with little impact, while the Fighter after a moment of sadness and regret by his player got a Lay on Hands and Healing Word seconds after being KOed and barely missed a beat.
7. The Cleric ended up being Mr. Killsteal, much to the shock of us all. He also rolled a 20 on every Religion check which gave us all a funny feeling.
8. The game lasted four hours. We got in three fights, which were noticably slowed by our lack of familiarity. We still spent nearly an hour and a half just roleplaying, talking to townsfolk and amongst ourselves.
Leading up to the big finish...
Using pregens lessened the effect of this, but even if we were using characters we ourselves created, I think this would still be true. 3E was a game of character creation, and the entire game revolved around character creation. Even while the game was being played, character creation and its consequences was a bigger deal than what you were doing at the table. While we were playing last night, the most important thing was dealing with the situation at hand, using the tools we had available. Character creation may have got us to that point, but after that we were on our own. It didn't come with us.
BIG FINISH
My biggest impression of the night was that this seriously is a completely new game. There was a noticable disconnect from the games we have been playing up to this point. It wasn't a bad one(with the aforementioned exception), as everyone liked having fun new things to do, and the emphasis on tactical strategy and finding the best way to use things. People really liked how things worked the way they were supposed to(Fighter/Paladin being in your face tough guys, Rogue being a whirling zephyr of death, the Wizard being "one of the guys" instead of "Mr. Rocket Tag" and the particularly Cleric not being everybody's *****). I can see where the "this isn't D&D comes from". If you have a negative attitude going in, that would be how I would expect the disconnect and novelty of the game to be interpreted.
I'm going to go out on a limb here, and bring up 2E again. While this game in no way looks anything like 2E in terms of combat, the feel is there. 2E was enough fun just making attacks and moving around that it worked as tabletop wargame independantly of its roleplaying side. It made playing combat in the context of a roleplaying session fun. In 3E, this was less true, as having your character "optimized" properly tended to have more of an effect on outcomes than actually playing the game while the rules tended to slow down at times to the point where it didn't seem like a well designed "game". While entirely different, 4E feels more like 2E where combat is a "game within the game" that is as fun as the roleplaying.
a few issues on the points:
2 - how much/long pre-combat prep time was needed?
3 - what issues were most prevalent in the learning curve?
combat:
how long do you expect it to take for each round if you and your group were more familiar with the game?
while the resource management game is different in 4th compared to 3rd, can you give an estimate on how much resources were used each fight (how much HP lost, action pts burned, encounter/daily powers used)?
speaking of action points, did you notice their effect in play?
While we were playing last night, the most important thing was dealing with the situation at hand, using the tools we had available.
this warmed the cockles of my black, black, heart.
this is the kind of review i like to hear.
a few issues on the points:
2 - how much/long pre-combat prep time was needed?
3 - what issues were most prevalent in the learning curve?
combat:
how long do you expect it to take for each round if you and your group were more familiar with the game?
while the resource management game is different in 4th compared to 3rd, can you give an estimate on how much resources were used each fight (how much HP lost, action pts burned, encounter/daily powers used)?
speaking of action points, did you notice their effect in play?
this warmed the cockles of my black, black, heart.
2. The pre-combat prep takes about the same amount of time as it did in 3E. The real trick is to be prepared before the game even starts, with materials and a plan on how to deal with keeping track of things. It isn't difficult, but it does require a plan. Doing nothing I would expect to make things difficult and bog down an otherwise smooth running the game. I chose to come prepared, and it helped, though I saw new tricks that I need to use in the future(a better way to track initiative).
3. Just not making the most out of what characters can do. Not moving, going an entire battle without using your encounter power, not a single action point used during the whole session, the uninterested Warlock player never using Warlock's Curse. That sort of thing.
Familiarity--I think the time spent on a given combat can be cut in half. If that were the case, three major combats in a 4hr game become six. That is a big improvement.
Resources--HP were pretty easy to manage. Dealing with HP is obvious, and it is fairly intuitive. As for limited powers, people seemed shy about using them, even the encounter powers. All three battles featured at least one character who never used their encounter power. I'd say only three or four dailies were used over two days(1 extended rest) of adventuring among six characters, and nobody ever used an action point.
Action Points--As I mentioned twice before, nobody used one.
"While we were playing last night, the most important thing was dealing with the situation at hand, using the tools we had available."
I bolded this in the OP, and it bears saying again. This simply was rarely true of 3E. It was more important to have a character built, equipped, and the right spells cast/memorized than it was important to deal with the current situation in a smart tactical manner.
i guess i won't have much difference in prep time for 4th then i already do for 3rd. ever since one of our players (a dm) began bringing it, we use a whiteboard or part of my laminated battlemap when he's not there to track initiative and i'm sure i can use that to track marking & ongoing effects.
i am saddened to hear no action points were used. i played in an eberron campaign a long time ago and i loved the implementation of APs. while if memory serves, their uses is diminished in 4th, i am curious on their overall effect on gameplay.
if the reduced combat time is as you say it is, my group will love it. i found that in 3.5 combat tends to be a speed bump that we like between the RP, but it does take a while sometimes, even in fights that should not be significant. glad to hear that the time should be cut down once the players become familiar.
i might not have been clear enough on the HP issue: how battered were the PC's towards the end of a combat? were they usually in bloodied status or generally above the 1/2 hp threshold?
i guess i won't have much difference in prep time for 4th then i already do for 3rd. ever since one of our players (a dm) began bringing it, we use a whiteboard or part of my laminated battlemap when he's not there to track initiative and i'm sure i can use that to track marking & ongoing effects.
i am saddened to hear no action points were used. i played in an eberron campaign a long time ago and i loved the implementation of APs. while if memory serves, their uses is diminished in 4th, i am curious on their overall effect on gameplay.
if the reduced combat time is as you say it is, my group will love it. i found that in 3.5 combat tends to be a speed bump that we like between the RP, but it does take a while sometimes, even in fights that should not be significant. glad to hear that the time should be cut down once the players become familiar.
I would guess that for the average combat, at least half the party ended the battle bloodied. I think we had one battle with five bloodied characters, though forgive me, I was the DM and I wasn't the person keeping track of this.
People did get bloodied all the time, and the Cleric who had four powers that could trigger healing surges(and used them frequently) complicated things in that regard.
I'd have to ask my players to really get a good answer for this, but it seemed like they were getting kicked around something fierce from where I was standing.
A) no harm done to the players
B) "tactical" reteat and full heal, hoping to get better prep this time around (ie: we just got our collective butts handed to us, thank pelor we managed to survie. except Sebastian. poor Sebastian)
as long as there is a real threat, without going overboard, i am pleased. the fact that the cleric was kept busy with his healing word (and that some were still at below half) means a lot, 4th does not seem like a cakewalk.
Is it ok to photocopy NPC stat boxes to help manage things?
as for photocopying NPC stats, if you can't photocopy them, put it on a cheat sheet or recipe card. i would only recommend this for major and/or combat NPC's only.
The current organization scheme has Monster Name, current hit points, initiative order, bloodied, and a note for which mini it's tied to. The bulk of the space on the card is used to jot notes for marked targets and ongoing conditions.
I can get away with re-using each card 2-4 times, using a different colour pen for each combat, before the card is too much of a mess and gets flipped. When both sides are a mess it's off to the recycle bin.
I've been using copious amounts of index cards to keep track of my initiative stack.
The current organization scheme has Monster Name, current hit points, initiative order, bloodied, and a note for which mini it's tied to. The bulk of the space on the card is used to jot notes for marked targets and ongoing conditions.
I can get away with re-using each card 2-4 times, using a different colour pen for each combat, before the card is too much of a mess and gets flipped. When both sides are a mess it's off to the recycle bin.
i may switch to that, over the years i find my notebook paper methods sometimes get messy
I've been using copious amounts of index cards to keep track of my initiative stack.
The current organization scheme has Monster Name, current hit points, initiative order, bloodied, and a note for which mini it's tied to. The bulk of the space on the card is used to jot notes for marked targets and ongoing conditions.
I can get away with re-using each card 2-4 times, using a different colour pen for each combat, before the card is too much of a mess and gets flipped. When both sides are a mess it's off to the recycle bin.
I think the next logical step to this process is to have dry-erase-friendly monster cards, and use dry-erase markers for this. I know that WotC is already planning to sell power cards like these; I wonder if they'll do monster cards as well?
also, just from this initial run, how adaptable do you feel the rules may be to homebrews? can you make that call yet? i'm interested in knowing how this aspect may be.
if you could, i'd like to hear more about your experiences with the role-playing aspects of the game, as well as any (if there where any) skill challenges and other such mechanics. you mentioned that a good part of the 4hrs was roleplaying and such, i'd like to hear some more details on that aspect and whether or not if felt natural, etc.
also, just from this initial run, how adaptable do you feel the rules may be to homebrews? can you make that call yet? i'm interested in knowing how this aspect may be.
The role playing aspects of the game were much as you would see in just about any game. People acting in character, socializing with other party members, and talking to the citizens of Winterhaven. The 4E system didn't seem to have any sort of negative impact on pure roleplaying. Being forced to use pregenerated characters did have a bit of a negative impact on roleplaying, but that is to be expected.
There were a few quirks to our roleplaying experience, the most notable would be the following story. The Dwarf Fighter had a morbid obsession with playing with dead bodies. After the first battle, he procured a severed enemy head which he carried in a bag from that point on(he said he was going to use it in a stew). He later tried to write the F-Word on the side of the road in dead kobolds. There weren't enough kobolds for that, to which he asked "What if I chop them up..."
As for skill challenges and that sort, the module is a little short on them, I would think due to the fact that they aren't covered in the quick start rules. There are some later on, but we haven't gotten there yet. The biggest thing on skills was how much people liked Detect Magic being a trained use of the Arcana skill.
I didn't notice anything that would really intefere with a homebrew. I'm planning on starting my own as soon as I get the core books.
http://www.openmindgames.com/omg_products_cp_large.htm
If WotC is smart, then they will produce something like this on their own as well as chips of different colors in 1", 2", and 3" diameters to use as markers.
...
8. The game lasted four hours. We got in three fights, which were noticably slowed by our lack of familiarity. We still spent nearly an hour and a half just roleplaying, talking to townsfolk and amongst ourselves..
That point sounds pretty good to me.
Normally in my group our 3rd edition combats last about 45 minutes to an hour each, and that's with three to five player characters fighting a handful of monsters. In a normal session we play for about five or six hours and only do two combats with a lot of roleplaying in between. So the fact that your combats only took about 50 minutes each but involved more combatants (five players instead of 3-4, and lots of monsters instead of a couple) is great! And that's using a system that was basically new to everybody. Presumably combats will take you even less time once you're used to the system.
Which sounds like a good omen to me. It means that, if my group has similar results, we'll be able to do more combats with more opponents in the same amount of real time or less per game session. Which also means the combats should can be a little faster paced and hopefully more exciting, and it also means we have a little extra time to squeeze in more roleplaying or get further along the stories.
Thanks for the review. Good stuff.
From the start, I only had a few hours to read it. Due to the way our group meets I decided that we would randomly draw the characters, and no one could use a character class that they were planning on using during our "real" campaign that will start once the books come out. We only had 4 hours to run anything and most of my group is new to roleplaying in general, so it was a good test. We only went as far as the first combat and then into the town,
after that I had them bed down for the night, they got drunk and barely missed getting into a drunken bar brawl with the local authority, I wasn't expecting that.
There were two of our number that weren't supposed to show, but found a way to... so I had only 2 hours to figure out what to do, I used the D&DXP warlock and ranger to fill out the one day shows, since they wouldn't level anyway. The first encounter is very easily scaled, and you couldn't tell that it was monkeyed with at all.
The Fighter and Paladin were played by long time MMORPG players, but very inexperienced roleplayers. The Wizard was played by my wife, who has about 3+ years of RP experience, mostly with 3.5, and only once did she play a spellcaster before. The Cleric was played by a girl who has only about 3 3.5 games under her belt, and she's still learning, she played a Rouge for the 3.5 game; this is important later. The Rouge was played by a dude with a lot of 3.x experience, he basically started playing in 2002ish, however he can't roll well to save his life. The Ranger's player had about the amount of experience that the Cleric did, and the Warlock had a few games under his belt of 3.x. I was DMing and have over 23 years of experience.
Combat flowed well, and was relatively easy to handle.
The Paladin took the most damage, as he should have, he was completely surrounded and went down to single digit HPs by the second turn, but the party and the cleric especially kept him up for the whole fight.
The Cleric by the second round figured out how to best utilize her character and kicked but. The Wizard figured out what to do and when to do it quickly and smoothly. The fighter used his character more like a striker until the end of the combat.
We had two uses of action points and they turned the tide of the battle, it was awesome.
There were a few encounter powers used, but my players seemed to be afraid to use them like the OP. So watch for that in your groups.
Conclusion:
This is a great game. Everyone had fun, it was easy and intuitive. The players got into their roles relatively easily. The roleplay wasn't hampered or lessened. In fact I'd say we did a bit more than any of our earlier attempts. The players were a little more comfortable in their characters.
Granted I did not like 3.x, not in the least, but with that thought, I really love 4E, and I'm eager for the books to come out so we can fully immerse in the system.
Cons: There were some problems that I had to rule with 3.x, such as if there is line of sight/effect through friendly/nonfriendly and I can't remember the other one, but The few pages you get in KoSF are not entirely robust, but we were able to rule and move along in moments.
Cons: There were some problems that I had to rule with 3.x, such as if there is line of sight/effect through friendly/nonfriendly and I can't remember the other one, but The few pages you get in KoSF are not entirely robust, but we were able to rule and move along in moments.
According to the new D&D Miniatures game, allies don't block line of sight or line of effect (well, they don't block arrows and stuff). Enemies do, providing cover (-2?) (And there's no penalty for shooting into melee).
That's not necessarily true of 4e, but it's probably closer than 3.x.
I got one of these to help me keep track of initiative:
http://www.openmindgames.com/omg_products_cp_large.htm
If WotC is smart, then they will produce something like this on their own as well as chips of different colors in 1", 2", and 3" diameters to use as markers.
This was the best spent money on a game supplement I ever bought. Now I need to buy the expansion with more of the magnets...Or perhaps I'll just buy a second one.
PS: If WotC doesn't print cards, I'll be happy to print full sets of these at my friends print shop for the cost of ink+card stock+shipping.
