Keepers as PC race - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 burritoalpastor Feb 16, 2009 22:47:04	I have a deep-seated, long-standing affection for the Keepers, and I'm mostly satisfied with their 4e implementation. (They're on page 134 of the Manual of the Planes.) Their new art sucks (figures, the one time WOTC doesn't reuse old art...), but it's ok, because they're now like Dabus (Dabuses? Dabii?), except malevolent and even more inscrutable. What I miss, however, are Keeper PCs. Keeper was the most awesome seven ECLs you could take in 3rd edition, and it's disappointing (although understandable) that they didn't make the 4e jump, but that's nothing that can't be easily fixed, right? KEEPER Racial Traits Height: 6' Weight: 145 lb., including trenchcoat and goggles Ability Scores: +2 Dexterity, +2 Charisma Size: Medium Speed: 6 squares Vision: Blindsight 20 Languages: Common, Keeper Skill Bonuses: +2 Arcana, +2 History Shadow Origin: Keepers are native to the Shadowfell, so you are considered a shadow creature for the purpose of effects that relate to creature origin. Additionally, you are treated as having the Shapeshifter keyword for effects relating to keywords. Inscrutable: If you are using a holy symbol implement, you do not need to be holding or displaying it - it merely needs to be in your possession and on your person. Additionally, all other characters take a -10 penalty to Insight checks regarding you or your activities. Shadow Affinity: You gain resist 5 necrotic and +1 damage to powers with the Necrotic keyword. At 11th level, these increase to 10 and +2 respectively, at 21st level, they increase to 15 and +3 respectively. Dissolution (Keeper Racial Power) As per the Keeper power (MotP 134), except daily instead of Recharge 5+.
#2 vebrandsson Feb 16, 2009 23:19:34	If Dissolution even as a daily is a little much for a PC racial power with out a doubt. You'd have to weaken it to something like the Genasi Swiftcurrent power to get away with it. Dissolution's healing plus the ability to sustain powers with minor actions and the +5 to all defenses is just way too much, then you throw on the climb and swim speeds and you've got something extreme. If you just throw out the healing and make it something that requires a minor action to sustain then that may work as a daily but so far all official races (and I don't consider the npc race templates official races) have encounter powers save the dwarf and human.
#3 burritoalpastor Feb 16, 2009 23:56:05	Dissolution as written is almost certainly OP, but I didn't really feel like editing it down for balance. :D As far as actual balance goes, how about this? Baseline, it would be an encounter power, making you immune to the restrained and immobilized conditions, and let you ignore difficult terrain, but not give the climb/swim, +defenses, or healing. Racial feats would then add those - climb/swim as one or two heroic feats, defenses and healing as paragon feats, maybe? I'm also uncertain about how well-adjusted they are in terms of their non-power racial traits; Blindsight in a PC race is more or less unprecedented so far, and without playtesting I think it would be hard to say exactly how powerful that is.
#4 vebrandsson Feb 17, 2009 10:54:35	As far as blindsight goes, its not what it used to be. If you read the Monster Manual it defines blindsight as: A monster with blindsight can percieve creatures and objects within the stated number of squares, making perception checks as Normal. The creature automatically fails perception checks to notice things outside the range of its blindsight. So blindsight no longer lets you see invisible things anymore making it less overpowered as a PC sight. Basically a race with blindsight has darkvision out to a limited extend (making it actually worse than darkvision) but gives them immunity to blindness at the same time, so its about as borderline overpowered as normal darkvision if you ask me.
#5 doomsought Feb 17, 2009 19:48:51	Sight rules are almost never used; its about as broken as a Irish knot is strait.
#6 vebrandsson Feb 18, 2009 18:53:36	Sight rules are almost never used; its about as broken as a Irish knot is strait. I am going to disagree with you on both points there. Sight rules are used more often than you may realize and its far from broken.
#7 doomsought Feb 18, 2009 20:16:07	Depends on the DM, but I have never played a game where the DM tracked sight since 2ed.

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

burritoalpastor

Feb 16, 2009 22:47:04

I have a deep-seated, long-standing affection for the Keepers, and I'm mostly satisfied with their 4e implementation. (They're on page 134 of the Manual of the Planes.) Their new art sucks (figures, the one time WOTC doesn't reuse old art...), but it's ok, because they're now like Dabus (Dabuses? Dabii?), except malevolent and even more inscrutable.

What I miss, however, are Keeper PCs. Keeper was the most awesome seven ECLs you could take in 3rd edition, and it's disappointing (although understandable) that they didn't make the 4e jump, but that's nothing that can't be easily fixed, right?

KEEPER
Racial Traits
Height: 6'
Weight: 145 lb., including trenchcoat and goggles

Ability Scores: +2 Dexterity, +2 Charisma
Size: Medium
Speed: 6 squares
Vision: Blindsight 20

Languages: Common, Keeper
Skill Bonuses: +2 Arcana, +2 History
Shadow Origin: Keepers are native to the Shadowfell, so you are considered a shadow creature for the purpose of effects that relate to creature origin. Additionally, you are treated as having the Shapeshifter keyword for effects relating to keywords.
Inscrutable: If you are using a holy symbol implement, you do not need to be holding or displaying it - it merely needs to be in your possession and on your person. Additionally, all other characters take a -10 penalty to Insight checks regarding you or your activities.
Shadow Affinity: You gain resist 5 necrotic and +1 damage to powers with the Necrotic keyword. At 11th level, these increase to 10 and +2 respectively, at 21st level, they increase to 15 and +3 respectively.

Dissolution (Keeper Racial Power)
As per the Keeper power (MotP 134), except daily instead of Recharge 5+.

vebrandsson

Feb 16, 2009 23:19:34

If Dissolution even as a daily is a little much for a PC racial power with out a doubt. You'd have to weaken it to something like the Genasi Swiftcurrent power to get away with it. Dissolution's healing plus the ability to sustain powers with minor actions and the +5 to all defenses is just way too much, then you throw on the climb and swim speeds and you've got something extreme. If you just throw out the healing and make it something that requires a minor action to sustain then that may work as a daily but so far all official races (and I don't consider the npc race templates official races) have encounter powers save the dwarf and human.

burritoalpastor

Feb 16, 2009 23:56:05

Dissolution as written is almost certainly OP, but I didn't really feel like editing it down for balance. :D

As far as actual balance goes, how about this? Baseline, it would be an encounter power, making you immune to the restrained and immobilized conditions, and let you ignore difficult terrain, but not give the climb/swim, +defenses, or healing. Racial feats would then add those - climb/swim as one or two heroic feats, defenses and healing as paragon feats, maybe?

I'm also uncertain about how well-adjusted they are in terms of their non-power racial traits; Blindsight in a PC race is more or less unprecedented so far, and without playtesting I think it would be hard to say exactly how powerful that is.

vebrandsson

Feb 17, 2009 10:54:35

As far as blindsight goes, its not what it used to be. If you read the Monster Manual it defines blindsight as: A monster with blindsight can percieve creatures and objects within the stated number of squares, making perception checks as Normal. The creature automatically fails perception checks to notice things outside the range of its blindsight.

So blindsight no longer lets you see invisible things anymore making it less overpowered as a PC sight. Basically a race with blindsight has darkvision out to a limited extend (making it actually worse than darkvision) but gives them immunity to blindness at the same time, so its about as borderline overpowered as normal darkvision if you ask me.

doomsought

Feb 17, 2009 19:48:51

Sight rules are almost never used; its about as broken as a Irish knot is strait.

vebrandsson

Feb 18, 2009 18:53:36

Sight rules are almost never used; its about as broken as a Irish knot is strait.

I am going to disagree with you on both points there. Sight rules are used more often than you may realize and its far from broken.

doomsought

Feb 18, 2009 20:16:07

Depends on the DM, but I have never played a game where the DM tracked sight since 2ed.