Divine powers are called "Prayers."
Martial powers are called "Exploits."
So what will Ki powers be called? I'm gonna follow the trend of designing a few Ki origin classes, but calling the powers a certain thing is kind of important to me, flavor-wise.
So do we know what they plan on calling them? If not, I think I might go with "Mantras" or "Chakras", or simply "Techniques".
Help?
I'm hoping for Techniques, to prevent any limitation by culture association.
Um... if you're using Ki powers, chances are you're not worried about culture association.
Um... if you're using Ki powers, chances are you're not worried about culture association.
Seconded.
Maybe, "Insights"? Doesn't have to remain supernatural at that point, just your insightful of your opponent, or the universe, or youself- whichever.
Damn, I really like "Jutsu". If it's going to be "Ki" origin, and not "Chi", I feel that using a Japanese word fits in perfectly. Now, do I say "Level 1 Daily Jutsu" out of respect for correctness, or do I bastardize it and use "Jutsus".
Depends. Jutsu is singular, jutsus is plural. I have no idea what plural jutsu is in Japanese, or if they even apply plural/singular directly to nouns.
Depends. Jutsu is singular, jutsus is plural. I have no idea what plural jutsu is in Japanese, or if they even apply plural/singular directly to nouns.
There is a way to designate a plural noun in Japanese, but it's generally not used.
Personally I just hope its not going to be exclusive asian. Its an insult to the ancient world's beliefs (most of which based around the power of the soul) and an insult to non-buddihist-shinto beliefs in Asia.
It's not an insult to anyone. It's just flavor is all.
Basically when you reduce any culture to one term 'ki/soul' you insult them. No culture is one ideal.
After all to cover the archtypes of western world we have three (Martial/Divine/Arcane) most of which could cover into other cultures.
In fact this is the standard I have for ALL other power sources: No one sterotype of any kind, not racial, not culture, not literature style. I want the later power sources to be as unique and varied as Martial/Divine/Arcane.
Apology for what was here orginally, it was a quick quip that was a bit more aggrersive and mean then I meant.
Basically when you reduce any culture to one term 'ki/soul' you insult them. No culture is one ideal.
After all to cover the archtypes of western world we have three (Martial/Divine/Arcane) most of which could cover into other cultures.
In fact this is the standard I have for ALL other power sources: No one sterotype of any kind, not racial, not culture, not literature style. I want the later power sources to be as unique and varied as Martial/Divine/Arcane.
When you use a term like Ki, you're referring to a particular style of power, popularly from Asia. If not for the Asian flavor, abilities chalked up for the Ki power source would probably end up in either arcane or martial. It's no more insulting that saying that Chakra is Japanese-style magic.
Jutsus has too much connotation with ninjas, methinks (although we don't NEED ninjas. We got Rogues who can be ninjas. GAH.)
When you use a term like Ki, you're referring to a particular style of power, popularly from Asia. If not for the Asian flavor, abilities chalked up for the Ki power source would probably end up in either arcane or martial. It's no more insulting that saying that Chakra is Japanese-style magic.
Yeah..uh, actually no. Ki is roughl equilivent to 'soul' its actually a chinese term for energy flow (translates literally as breath but thats neither here or there), a term that as far back as the Ancient greeks, in particular early Pythagerians (who were vegans), and Hippocratus, was known and followed. Even in modern times Jominian military theory exhibits a pull for the 'will' (another synonym for soul poower) over the enemies.
And as a side note, Chakra isn't a Japanese-style Magic. Its insulting to their annimist style Shinto beliefs AND to Hinduism to call it such, maybe Insulting isn't the best term, but its uh. Not RIGHT to do it. It would be like saying there is no diffrence from Jehovah to Zeus.
Edit> Essentially its this: Naming power sources after culture types (which Asia isn't a culture its a freaking huge contient that has very little to do with each other other than geographic closeness and some overlap in religion) implies somehow that a warrior from an asian culture is 'diffrent' from one from the Western cultures. There is plenty both ancient and modern thought process in the West that relies on the soul. There is no need to force Asia's peg into the square hole of Ki.
implies somehow that a warrior from an asian culture is 'diffrent' from one from the Western cultures.
Er, that would be correct. They are different.
Don't even try to tell me that a samurai is the same as a knight. Or that a Tao priest is the same as a cleric. Or that an onmyoji is the same as a wizard,
Er, that would be correct. They are different.
Don't even try to tell me that a samurai is the same as a knight. Or that a Tao priest is the same as a cleric. Or that an onmyoji is the same as a wizard,
Fine, I'm telling you.
They are. :P
I submit that sincere belief in Anything (even the unamed object of Taoism) results in similar fantacism for your belief.
given that the DnD wizard has no real tie to wizards as they were, and druids haven't been done yet, the last one is Meh thing. But even then, I submit that someone who manipulates some 'force' around them be they Jedi Wizard Onmyoji or Shaman are in fact, similar enough that one class can handle them with Flavor changes creating the diffrences.
This is not to suggest that Ki power shouldn't be around, but to make it exclusive to one contients people is a form of bigotry.
Either A). Asian are superior to Westerns and its presented through Ki classes being inherantly superior to the Martial/Divine/Arcane classes, B). Asians are 'Diffrent' from Europeans are therfor need their own special classes because they use the term Ki not the term 'Soul, Willpoower, Chutzpah' for the internal drive of a person to accomplish something.
I perfer C). All cultures have icons that are driven through willpower to achieve what isn't noramlly achiavable.
Actually I submit that regardless of cultural of ideological diffrences someone who spends from age of 7 to a later point perfecting themselves at stabbing stuff with Swords, is in fact Similar enough to orginate in the same class and be diffrenated in how they are RP'd.
I submit that sincere belief in Anything (even the unamed object of Taoism) results in similar fantacism for your belief.
given that the DnD wizard has no real tie to wizards as they were, and druids haven't been done yet, the last one is Meh thing. But even then, I submit that someone who manipulates some 'force' around them be they Jedi Wizard Onmyoji or Shaman are in fact, similar enough that one class can handle them with Flavor changes creating the diffrences.
This is not to suggest that Ki power shouldn't be around, but to make it exclusive to one contients people is a form of bigotry.
Either A). Asian are superior to Westerns and its presented through Ki classes being inherantly superior to the Martial/Divine/Arcane classes, B). Asians are 'Diffrent' from Europeans are therfor need their own special classes because they use the term Ki not the term 'Soul, Willpoower, Chutzpah' for the internal drive of a person to accomplish something.
I perfer C). All cultures have icons that are driven through willpower to achieve what isn't noramlly achiavable.
Could you give us any examples of Ki-type characters outside of "Asian culture?"
This isn't a challenge as a way to contradict you-- I'd honestly like some examples.
Could you give us any examples of Ki-type characters outside of "Asian culture?"
This isn't a challenge as a way to contradict you-- I'd honestly like some examples.
Spartan Warriors. Yes they could be done to a degree with the fighter class, but the spartans presented in 300 aren't really Martial, they could Easily be in 'ki' as the greeks orginated the idea of life blood in the west.
Stav fighters. For those who don't know Stav is a form of unarmed combat founded in Norway, it claims heritage back to the 500's, but has deffiantly been around since at least the 1400's.
Hippocratic healers. Hippocractus believed that imbalances in the flow of life blood is what lead to illness, and treated it a holistic manner.
Dervishes. Really all Sufic tradition in Islam could be attested to Ki more then divine, but as Dervishes predated islam, they are the ones I will point to for Middle Eastern culture.
Spartan Warriors. Yes they could be done to a degree with the fighter class, but the spartans presented in 300 aren't really Martial, they could Easily be in 'ki' as the greeks orginated the idea of life blood in the west.
Stav fighters. For those who don't know Stav is a form of unarmed combat founded in Norway, it claims heritage back to the 500's, but has deffiantly been around since at least the 1400's.
Hippocratic healers. Hippocractus believed that imbalances in the flow of life blood is what lead to illness, and treated it a holistic manner.
Dervishes. Really all Sufic tradition in Islam could be attested to Ki more then divine, but as Dervishes predated islam, they are the ones I will point to for Middle Eastern culture.
All your post proves is that there have been martial artists in nearly every society on Earth throughout history. And as though the name was not clear enough, yes, they have all been martial in nature.
Besides, if truly believe any of this matters, you are going to be sorely disappointed when the azn power source arrives and fuels monks, samurai, shugenja, and wu jen. I also have high hopes for a magical girl leader and a kaiju defender. ;)
Resign yourself. The stupidity, it approaches.
I also have high hopes for a magical girl leader and a kaiju defender. ;)
Oh oh oh, you've really brought some crazy ideas... I love 'em! Those are so awesome.
Oh oh oh, you've really brought some crazy ideas... I love 'em! Those are so awesome.
Wait until you see my sentai builds -- one for each role!
All your post proves is that there have been martial artists in nearly every society on Earth throughout history. And as though the name was not clear enough, yes, they have all been martial in nature.
Besides, if truly believe any of this matters, you are going to be sorely disappointed when the azn power source arrives and fuels monks, samurai, shugenja, and wu jen. I also have high hopes for a magical girl leader and a kaiju defender. ;)
Resign yourself. The stupidity, it approaches.
I can Always hope it won't this time. I doubt it will, but I can hope. And Hope I do.
Edit> And if they actually use gender as a seperation for class, I may stop playing DnD. benign biogtry I have come to expect, blatant sexism is another matter.
Though I will add I am still amused that class that is tied into a pact and an oath has a name which dervies from 'oath breaker', so I rarely expect any sort of historical semi-accuracy.
So I don't expect the ki power source to become a dumping ground for everything remotely Oriental-flavoured.
Stav fighters. For those who don't know Stav is a form of unarmed combat founded in Norway, it claims heritage back to the 500's, but has deffiantly been around since at least the 1400's.
No, it hasn't.
Though I will add I am still amused that class that is tied into a pact and an oath has a name which dervies from 'oath breaker', so I rarely expect any sort of historical semi-accuracy.
And that's the reason you don't expect historical accuracy? Because one of the warlock's pact's name is derived from 'oath breaker'? (Btw, which one, how so, and from what language-being a linguistics guy, I'm rather curious)
It's that that makes you not expect it, and not oh, I don't know, say...EVERYTHING? Not the dragons, wizards, lizardfolk, giants, tieflings, clerics, oozes, aberrations, and elves? No, that doesn't stop you from expecting historical accuracy, it's a particular pact's ironic name derivation?
Also, Aluman, the Ki power source is different. Where the Martial characters wield brute strength and physical training as the source of their abilities, the Ki characters (or so we've heard from the dev blogs) gain their powers from practiced control of their bodies and the flow of energies through their bodies.
Martial- Practice, practice, practice
Divine- Just keep praying
Arcane- Manipulate forces from beyond
Ki- Be the power you wield
The 'Asian' aspect is there because, when you look at a medieval European society (which D&D is based on, no matter how much you'd like to deny it), you don't find anything that resembles Ki. In Asian cultures, however (yes, I just said 'Asian cultures'- they do, in fact, share a lot in common with each other. Cultures in close proximity tend to do that, especially when they all share very common roots), you do find people talking about ki, their inner power, the power of the world around them that lies in all things and can be tamed and utilized with the proper methods. At the same time in Europe, you had people being burned as witches. Very different.
Again, though, you can't demand that a game with ELVES AND DRAGONS be historically accurate: after all, could William the Conquerer and his warlock army really have defeated the Elven Dragontamers at the Battle of Hastings in 1066? Methinks not, good sir!
There is absolutely, positively no need for some sort of crappy, thematically questionable "ki" power source.
Absolutely EVERYTHING that you would stick under this "ki" power source is one of three things
1) Ridiculously orientalized versions of Far Eastern cultures of things that would be better represented by a class that ALREADY EXISTS. Ninja=Rogues, Samurai=Fighters-- deal with it!!
2) A technique or powers whose fluff, if you open your mind up just a little bit, CLEARLY falls under Martial (well practiced fighting techniques learned from a master of combat), Divine (drawing power from spiritual energy/life), Psychic ("reading" someone and predicting where they will be in a couple seconds, closing your eyes and leaving your body) or Arcane (doing a bunch of random, weird hand motions while mumbling magic words and summoning up a wall of fire or similar magical effects).
3) Something that so utterly and completely defies the whole cosmology of D&D that you actually have to go back and remove, or at least SERIOUSLY alter and erode, existing power sources in order to simply group everything concievable under a single heading. In other words, if you were creating a campaign world with that drew its inspiration from Indian, Vietnamese, Chinese, Japanese, Mongollian and Korean legends and military, would you end up throwing out all power sources in D&D and simply grouping everything under "ki"?
Find me an example, ANY example, just ONE, that you can come up with in the entire breadth and depth of your creativity that does not fall under one of these categories. Just one, somewhere, somehow... find an excuse, just a small one, to have any such power source... anything at all...
And assume you aren't blinded by your Japanimation worship and can actually think clearly and critically and put any example that initially seems good to the test of the above three nullifications, you'll find that there is no good reason to have such a power source and thus you don't need a name for its powers.
OK, so what about a "Ki Blast," is it arcane? Is it Divine? Psychic? Martial?
Martial is out because it is beyond the physical limits of the body (some people may say that the high level exploits are too... but all the training with a sword in the world WON'T let you do the Windscar)
Divine... Not really seeming to fit thematically. (Though it may be possible to make a power similar.)
Arcane.... Close fit I suppose. But maybe it functions in a null-magic zone (I'm sure there are some around her) if it does then it, by definition, can't be arcane.
Psionic... Depends on the portrayal. This perhaps comes closest to actually being Ki. However if it assaults the body directly, while leaving the mind unscathed, it can't be Psionic.
Ki would seem to represent the medium between Martial and Psionic. It surpasses physcal limitations of the body through being in tune with oneself. I don't care about power sources. In the end a power source is a name to thematically tie powers and classes together.
Arguing over something that has yet to exist gets you nowhere. Yet you do it anyway... I'm never going to understand this obsession with tiy little details.
Play the game and enjoy it. If you don't like something change it.
Psionic... Depends on the portrayal. This perhaps comes closest to actually being Ki. However if it assaults the body directly, while leaving the mind unscathed, it can't be Psionic..
Not necessarily. Things like telekinesis and pyrokinesis can be psionic, but definitely only affect the body/physical objects.
Ki could mean somethning that isn't quite defined. A Wu Jen need not be Arcane or divine, maybe it's something in between.
I mostly hate argument for the sake of argument. And this thread has devolved intpo that. If you want to discuss do it. If you want to argue over whether something is realistic join debate.
YES. KI IS ASIAN. GET OVER IT. It is Asian in the same way that Clerics are European: Sure, they're inspired by historically accurate warrior-monks in full battle armor, but the fantasy version is based off of some old European legends. In the same way, Monks (NOT Ninjas and Samurai- I really doubt that those will be Ki powered) are inspired by- surprise, surprise! stories from China and Japan about warriors who used a single weapon and the strength of their soul to focus energies within themselves and unlock their inner powers. That doesn't really happen in European mythology (we get warriors with a magic weapon, yes, but then they beat people up and God helps them be super-strong).
But...yeah. Get over it. If you don't like it, change the flavor. It's all just fluff anyways.
In other news, here's to hoping they call them techniques!
If you want to argue the fact that because it's called "Ki" it should be limited to Asian cultures, then please follow your logic to its logical conclusion and rephrase your statement to say that they should limit Ki classes explicitly and solely to Japanese concepts. Anything else is hypocritical and betrays your bias.
Thank you for your time.
Also, Ki is a spiritiual ability. You use your own spirit energy to become stronger, turn invisible, transform, jump, etc. Since arcane calls on external forces, divine on the gods, and martial on your muscle, this makes the most sense.
Martial is out because it is beyond the physical limits of the body (some people may say that the high level exploits are too... but all the training with a sword in the world WON'T let you do the Windscar)
Go take a look at a LOT of the things under Fighter, Ranger, Rogue and ESPECIALLY Warlord with that same attitude. Seriously. No.. look.
You realize if you had to absolutely get rid of every one of these things that wasn't physically possible then you'd have to get rid of a good section of all of these lists, in fact... you'd leave Warlord with very little at all as per a class. Their powers create little forcefields around people, magically heal their wounds from afar, cause others to move twice as fast as they could normally and give them eyes in the back of their heads. Rogues can effectively turn invisible, teleport, switch places with monsters and even mind control for a turn, though they are explained in other ways.
All of these can fall under Martial. If "ki blast" is the ONLY skill that the class you are talking about has that isn't a matter of natural training, skills, tactics and body mastery then your class is a Martial class. Monk, as it was written in 3/3.5E, was a Martial class.
Divine... Not really seeming to fit thematically. (Though it may be possible to make a power similar.)
Ki means soul. You are talking about channeling the energy that souls are made from, the same energy wielded by angels and gods, and such. You gather up this soul energy, no doubt visually bright and giving off light, and then thrust it. This is quite close, if not identical, to a lot of the powers that Clerics and Paladins have. If your class is very much focused on doing this then it would fall under divine.
So if you have some sort of mystic light energy warrior then it is effectively just a Divine power source character. They may fall typically under the category of a Divine power source character with no particular dedicated god or goddess, but that theme is already covered and acceptible for a Divine power source character. Even if they don't draw it from the gods, you are using the same exact type of energy.
Arcane.... Close fit I suppose. But maybe it functions in a null-magic zone (I'm sure there are some around her) if it does then it, by definition, can't be arcane.
When I mention Arcane I am not referring to the light energy thrower like described above, but rather to those who have watched WAY too much Naruto and think that ninjas throw fireballs, control sand, create water copies of themselves, etc. by doing a bunch of really quick hand motions and mumbling an incantation. All those "jutsu" are just spells, those "ninja" would fall very neatly under the category of Arcane Strikers. They don't need some special "Asian" category to fall under.
Psionic... Depends on the portrayal. This perhaps comes closest to actually being Ki. However if it assaults the body directly, while leaving the mind unscathed, it can't be Psionic.
This would work just as well as Divine. If you are talking about mind over matter, you are affecting things with sheer force of will, and you
Ki would seem to represent the medium between Martial and Psionic. It surpasses physcal limitations of the body through being in tune with oneself. I don't care about power sources. In the end a power source is a name to thematically tie powers and classes together.
Okay, by your logic here we need a unique power source for Paladins because they aren't 100% reliant upon divine energy and in fact use Martial tactics as well. So we need to give Paladins a power source that we will call "Hero" power source that will represent the medium between Divine and Martial. It surpasses physical limitations of the body through being in tune with your cause.
Furthermore we need a unique power source for all types of Warlocks, because none of them call upon the elements as explained by the Arcane power source. From this point on Warlocks with the Infernal pact use the power source "demonic" which calls upon demons rather than elemental chaos in order to cast their spells, the Feypact Warlocks will have the Power Source "Wild" which means that they draw their power from the Feywild and they are more similar to Druids than to demonic Warlocks and so thematically it is quite important to seperate the two. Furthermore we need another power source for Star Warlocks because they are clearly neither elemental like Arcane nor are they demonic nor are they draw from nature-- the closest thing we have to them is perhaps the Shadow power source (which has been confirmed and covers things like Illusion, Necromancy, etc.). While we are at it, we may as well put the Rogue under this Shadow power source because CLEARLY a lot of the Rogue's abilities defy physical possibilities in order to make them more shadowy.
On top of this, as I noted above, we cannot possibly consider Warlord to be a martial power source because a lot of their powers have nothing to do with their own bodies. There is no other power source that explains the ability of one to affect others in supernatural ways using their voice and personality and so we will call this power source "Commander" power source. It is a power source that surpasses the limitations of the physical body and the natural affects of personality in order to affect others in supernatural ways.
Or... perhaps one can choose NOT to be nit-picky about things falling 100% under the category and NOT create a unique, different power source for every single class in the game simply because they differ in some minute way.
You ASSUME that Power Sources are nothing but meaningless fluff because they do not currently have an effect in the game. You can just as well ASSUME that there are no natural animals in the D&D world because, other than horses (briefly) they are not mentioned or statted anywhere in the currently available books. We can also assume that the forementioned horses have either infinate or zero AC, defense and hitpoints because they are not given proper stats anywhere in the book.
Or maybe, just maybe, we can rethink what seems silly conclusions to jump to and realize that perhaps not every rule imaginable was stuffed into the first three books. In the case of power sources, this may well mean that while there are currently no rules that directly interact with this particular feature of classes that this does not mean that in the future there will never be rules that interact with this class feature.
We may well begin seeing feats and abilities that have prerequisites or are based off of certain power sources once books are released that focus on this aspect of the game (which we are slated to do).
So besides the silliness of making super-powered versions of all the classes with an Asian flavor and grouping them all under the heading "ki", you can actually consider which of the power sources that are currently or will soon be available that they best fit under and use them.
In case you forgot which ones have been officially mentioned or alluded to they are Martial, Divine, Arcane, Wild/Nature, Psionic and Shadow.
Just choose the one that fits the closest to the concept and go with it.
And that's the reason you don't expect historical accuracy? Because one of the warlock's pact's name is derived from 'oath breaker'? (Btw, which one, how so, and from what language-being a linguistics guy, I'm rather curious)
No Warlock itself, dervives from wærloga in Old English which means literally 'oath breaker'. The class that makes an oath (pact whatever) with Something, is in fact an Oath Breaker. that's really just one of three easily at hand cases of DnD and its lack of historical accuracy.
Druids: Were Statesmen more then Priests.
Paladins: Were servants of secular leaders, due to Song of Roland a overtune of religion was there, and this has become the Paladin we see now in DnD.
It's that that makes you not expect it, and not oh, I don't know, say...EVERYTHING? Not the dragons, wizards, lizardfolk, giants, tieflings, clerics, oozes, aberrations, and elves? No, that doesn't stop you from expecting historical accuracy, it's a particular pact's ironic name derivation?
Most games (Palladium, GURPS for example) when they use historical terms, tend to have historical representative items. DnD has a track record of the opposite.
Also, Aluman, the Ki power source is different. Where the Martial characters wield brute strength and physical training as the source of their abilities, the Ki characters (or so we've heard from the dev blogs) gain their powers from practiced control of their bodies and the flow of energies through their bodies.
I never denied that, limiting it to the SOLE area of 'eastern' cultures is what I have issue with. In fact...
Martial- Practice, practice, practice
Divine- Just keep praying
Arcane- Manipulate forces from beyond
Ki- Be the power you wield
Monks spend YEARS training their body, why with your statement of what the power source means should they be Ki? Ki by your definition doesn't take training it Just IS.
The 'Asian' aspect is there because, when you look at a medieval European society (which D&D is based on, no matter how much you'd like to deny it), you don't find anything that resembles Ki. In Asian cultures, however (yes, I just said 'Asian cultures'- they do, in fact, share a lot in common with each other. Cultures in close proximity tend to do that, especially when they all share very common roots), you do find people talking about ki, their inner power, the power of the world around them that lies in all things and can be tamed and utilized with the proper methods. At the same time in Europe, you had people being burned as witches. Very different.
The poor knights of the temple of solomon and Christ (That is to say the Templars), were a religious order who often ignored the church itself (excluding them from paladinship especially given their occult ties) Who had a lot of spirtualism, ie Soul uses.
Then you have the various vestigal faiths that wouldn't really be clerics as Lithuanian pagans didn't have Priests of their gods, as they didn't need them. but did have spitural style leaders who again would/should fall under either Ki or Divine, but as their powers didn't dervive from a belief in Something but rather their own will, I would say Ki.
Then you have Dervishies and other sufic traditions. Oh and all followers of Hippocratus which means the herablists who were the mainstay bone patches in the mederatian.
Yeah your right, NO soul/energy archtypes in Medival Europe.
Again, though, you can't demand that a game with ELVES AND DRAGONS be historically accurate: after all, could William the Conquerer and his warlock army really have defeated the Elven Dragontamers at the Battle of Hastings in 1066? Methinks not, good sir!
Um actually given in history there was strong belief in Elves and Dragons (Wales, Georgia, et cetra) Why can't there be a degree of accuracy in so much as 'Oh in Europe No One Used ENERGY, They were all Dumb to it, but in Orient EVERYONE did.'
To everyone saying "DON'T ADD KI BECAUSE IT'S ASIAN AND KI ISN'T ASIAN":
YES. KI IS ASIAN. GET OVER IT. It is Asian in the same way that Clerics are European:
Little Note: Clerics as polythestic priests are not european. Pagans in Europe had religion continually, it wasn't dictated or handed by holy men, it just was. runecasters and such were often seen more as hedgewizards then 'priestly' as we would see it.
Sure, they're inspired by historically accurate warrior-monks in full battle armor, but the fantasy version is based off of some old European legends. In the same way, Monks (NOT Ninjas and Samurai- I really doubt that those will be Ki powered) are inspired by- surprise, surprise! stories from China and Japan about warriors who used a single weapon and the strength of their soul to focus energies within themselves and unlock their inner powers. That doesn't really happen in European mythology (we get warriors with a magic weapon, yes, but then they beat people up and God helps them be super-strong).
I think perhaps you are misinterpreting myself and others saying Ki shouldn't be just Asian. I don't care if there is a class (or two) that is Asian themed that is Ki powered, I don't want to see every class that is Ki to be Asian. to me that would be a form of benign bigotry against both western and eastern culture as it effectively says 'they only know how to channel their souls' and 'they don't know how to channel their souls' at the same time. I won't speak for SC and others, but for me it would be a mild travesty if after the clear divorcing of old concepts they have done, they fall back on 'ki means asian'.
Also side note: Monks as unarmed warriors aren't really exclusive to Asia, the most well known came from Asia, but aren't exclusive (why they remained there longer is a long lecture on iron prevlance and changing cultures and early gunpowder weapons that isn't needed here), Russian SAMBO, Cornish Wrestling and other European Martial Arts had unarmed warriors behind them.
But...yeah. Get over it. If you don't like it, change the flavor. It's all just fluff anyways.
In other news, here's to hoping they call them techniques!
I'm with Techniques, or whater so long as its not: Kata, Jutsu, Kung fu (though they would get credit for realizing in China Kung Fu just means 'good at' ) or anything else overtly Asia in origin. Yes it means something western in origin, but as most of us are in the west and the book is made in the west is less bigoted that way.
And while the classes get some amazing stuff it's all in how you think about it. A rogue is adept at avoiding notice. A Warlord uses rallying cries to help their allies fight. Things like that aren't arcane, though you could accomplish the same effect. Just because it pushes the limits of what the human/elven/mythical creature's body can do doesn't make it impossible. In the world of DnD the physical forces differ a little from here. Thay'd have to to allow some of the creepier creatures to exist (giant spiders for example).
I have little else to say I suppose. I'm just going to point out that no matter how much you guys fight it won't change whether Ki gets printed or not. And in the end it doesn't really matter.
If you want to argue the fact that because it's called "Ki" it should be limited to Asian cultures, then please follow your logic to its logical conclusion and rephrase your statement to say that they should limit Ki classes explicitly and solely to Japanese concepts. Anything else is hypocritical and betrays your bias.
What do you want them to call it, the ki/qi/chi power source? Ki is Asian in the same sense that schadenfreude is European. Yes, it's German. Germany is in Europe. Just because you're not German doesn't mean you can't have schadenfreude. For that matter, just because you're not European doesn't mean you can't have schadenfreude (trust me on this one, I should know).
I repeat that Wizards certainly _could_ have non-Asian classes based on the ki power source. But they won't. The only reason for such a thing to exist is to provide dungeon masters with an easily excised chunk of game if they don't want Asian-themed classes in their campaign. Otherwise, they'd just be martial classes.
Little Note: Clerics as polythestic priests are not european. Pagans in Europe had religion continually, it wasn't dictated or handed by holy men, it just was. runecasters and such were often seen more as hedgewizards then 'priestly' as we would see it.
D&D clerics are rarely if ever polytheistic. There are rules for playing pantheistic priests, this is true, but they are by no means the standard. Your typical D&D cleric worships a single god and is granted powers by that god. The class is and has always been based on the Christian crusaders of the European middle ages, whether they worship Pelor or the Raven Queen. Choice of god impacts a cleric's play mechanics very little.
So, now that that is settled, who is up for a schadenfreude power source? That sounds awesome.
I have little else to say I suppose. I'm just going to point out that no matter how much you guys fight it won't change whether Ki gets printed or not. And in the end it doesn't really matter.
Er.. I don't think anyone is disputing whether or not Ki will get printed. It's pretty common knowledge that it will, and it's even common knowledge that the Monk will be released as a Ki Striker. I'd expect Ki in PHB3.
What do you want them to call it, the ki/qi/chi power source?
Ki is fine. I'm not disputing what it should be called. I'm saying that if you follow the logic that because it is called Ki it must strictly be Asian in flavor, then you must follow that logic to its logical conclusion and state that because it is called Ki it must be explicitly Japanese in flavor.
I'm not making the claim that it must be Asian/Japanese in flavor just because it's called Ki. I'm saying it doesn't have to be limited to Asia. In fact:
Ki is Asian in the same sense that schadenfreude is European. Yes, it's German. Germany is in Europe. Just because you're not German doesn't mean you can't have schadenfreude. For that matter, just because you're not European doesn't mean you can't have schadenfreude (trust me on this one, I should
THIS is the point I'm trying to make!
Schadenfreude is European in the same sense that Ki is Asian. Yes, it's Japanese. Japan is in Asia. Just because you're not Japanese doesn't mean you can't use Ki. For that matter, just because you're not Asian doesn't mean you can't use Ki (trust me on this one, I should know).
See what I did, there?
I repeat that Wizards certainly _could_ have non-Asian classes based on the ki power source. But they won't.
We aren't talking about what they will or won't do but rather what we hope that will or won't do. And either way, we'll just have to wait and see. Aluman and I aren't hurting you or anyone else by simply hoping that WotC will release Asian classes in non-Ki power sources and non-Asian classes in the Ki power source, so I don't understand why everyone is getting butt-hurt about it.
The only reason for such a thing to exist is to provide dungeon masters with an easily excised chunk of game if they don't want Asian-themed classes in their campaign. Otherwise, they'd just be martial classes.
If they would just be martial classes, WotC shouldn't have made the Ki power source in the first place; I'm with Aluman on that one: that's bigotry (unintentional perhaps but still there).
D&D clerics are rarely if ever polytheistic.
WHAT?? Classic D&D clerics live in worlds were multiple gods undoubtedly exist. How is that not polytheistic?? Even the traditional non-cleric classes are polytheistic in typical campaigns! Take Forgotten Realms for example; nearly every character in the game is a polytheist (i.e. they believe in more than one god).
There are rules for playing pantheistic priests, this is true, but they are by no means the standard.
So? Great weapon fighters aren't the standard fighter either, but that doesn't mean you never see them.
Your typical D&D cleric worships a single god and is granted powers by that god. The class is and has always been based on the Christian crusaders of the European middle ages, whether they worship Pelor or the Raven Queen. Choice of god impacts a cleric's play mechanics very little.
...Point?
So, now that that is settled, who is up for a schadenfreude power source? That sounds awesome.
I'd like "Awesome" as a power source!
See what I did, there?
Yes, I see what you did there. You said that ki should be exclusively Japanese because it isn't exclusively Asian, and then you said ki shouldn't be exclusive at all. I suspect that you may have been wearing a funny hat and capering as you were doing this, but I can't be certain.
We aren't talking about what they will or won't do but rather what we hope that will or won't do. And either way, we'll just have to wait and see. Aluman and I aren't hurting you or anyone else by simply hoping that WotC will release Asian classes in non-Ki power sources and non-Asian classes in the Ki power source, so I don't understand why everyone is getting butt-hurt about it.
I'm not butt-hurt, I just don't agree. I personally hope that Wizards doesn't release non-Asian classes for the ki power source, because a non-Asian ki-based class might as well be called a martial class.
If they would just be martial classes, WotC shouldn't have made the Ki power source in the first place; I'm with Aluman on that one: that's bigotry (unintentional perhaps but still there).
It's not bigotry. It's not bigotry to divide a large group into smaller groups by culture. It's not bigotry to talk about the Latino vote as a subset of American voters, for instance, or Mayan ruins as a subset of pre-Columbian Mexican artifacts. I just think it's stupid.
WHAT?? Classic D&D clerics live in worlds were multiple gods undoubtedly exist. How is that not polytheistic??
...I'm gonna take a pass on this one in favor of the next one so the discussion doesn't get ugly.
Even the traditional non-cleric classes are polytheistic in typical campaigns! Take Forgotten Realms for example; nearly every character in the game is a polytheist (i.e. they believe in more than one god).
There is a big difference between clergy and laypersons. Can you show me evidence in D&D canon of a priest devoted to one god praying to a different god?
So? Great weapon fighters aren't the standard fighter either, but that doesn't mean you never see them.
::sigh::
That's not how this argument goes.
Vadin: "It [Ki] is Asian in the same way that Clerics are European."
Aluman: "Clerics as polythestic priests are not European."
Aluman's argument is that D&D clerics are polytheistic and are therefore not European, because European polytheisms did not have priests like D&D clerics. I know, it sounds circular, but it isn't.
I disagreed with Aluman's logic, because the D&D cleric is obviously designed to emulate the medieval European Christian crusader in equipment and behavior (and by Gary Gygax's own admission). Part of that behavior is that, by and large, they are not intended to be polytheistic. D&D worlds are polytheistic, yes -- so was medieval Europe. Laypersons on these worlds can be and often are undoubtedly polytheistic -- European peasants celebrated heathen holidays right alongside Christian feast days for centuries. But clerics, far and away, get their powers from a single divinity in a world's pantheon. Even in the Planescape setting, where all gods are known to exist, clerics are still predominantly monotheistic.
Using polytheism as an example of how clerics are not European in flavor makes sense on the face of things (Aluman's assessment of European polytheistic religions is spot on, for the most part), but in the end it is just not true. D&D clerics are European -- it's D&D religions that aren't. Frankly, D&D religions, even the ones based on real Earth religions, have never existed outside of fantasy.
What's to stop you from changing it yourselves? Wizards of the Coasts provide some mechanical rules and guidelines, but past that it's all just flavor anyways. If you want to make guys who use Ki and are knights, what's to stop you?
er, Ki. whatever.
What do you want them to call it, the ki/qi/chi power source? Ki is Asian in the same sense that schadenfreude is European. Yes, it's German. Germany is in Europe. Just because you're not German doesn't mean you can't have schadenfreude. For that matter, just because you're not European doesn't mean you can't have schadenfreude (trust me on this one, I should know).
Actually I would rather use european names for everyhting but that's neither here nor there, they have selected Ki, just because it has an Asian origin (of Sino/Nippon to be exact) doesn't Mandate it has to be Asian for all the classes,
I repeat that Wizards certainly _could_ have non-Asian classes based on the ki power source. But they won't. The only reason for such a thing to exist is to provide dungeon masters with an easily excised chunk of game if they don't want Asian-themed classes in their campaign. Otherwise, they'd just be martial classes.
Actually Ki and Martial are not synonyms in my mind any more than Divine or Arcane are. Both deal with internal focusing of Self, one through spirtual means (Ki) the other through training.
D&D clerics are rarely if ever polytheistic. There are rules for playing pantheistic priests, this is true, but they are by no means the standard. Your typical D&D cleric worships a single god and is granted powers by that god. The class is and has always been based on the Christian crusaders of the European middle ages, whether they worship Pelor or the Raven Queen. Choice of god impacts a cleric's play mechanics very little.
I think you need to look up 'polythestic'. Polythestic just means belief if many gods. A priest of pelor accepts the exsitance of Raven Queen. For instance Nordic traders often had crosses in their gear even though they didn't follow Christ. At best most clerics are monastic-polytheists, but even that is a stretch as most recognize holy days for other churches/gods so kinda sorta worship many even if they specalize in one.
Edit> Also, the crusaders were not clerics from DnD, at least as far the military orders (Templars, Hospitalers, Teutonic, et cetra) go, Clerics from DnD were based on rules handed to the friscian and other wandering priest orders who were given specific rules to avoid bloodshed (Thats why 1/2E weren't allowed anything but blunt weapons and 3/4E aren't trained in weapons like a fighter), Templars, Hospitalers and Teutonics (and the various smaller knight orders) were as highly trained as a standard european knight.
So, now that that is settled, who is up for a schadenfreude power source? That sounds awesome.
Meh. Taking misfortune from others is an Evil thing, so not really in my book for players.
No Warlock itself, dervives from wærloga in Old English which means literally 'oath breaker'. The class that makes an oath (pact whatever) with Something, is in fact an Oath Breaker. that's really just one of three easily at hand cases of DnD and its lack of historical accuracy.
D&D is fantasy, not history, of course. But, seriously, warlock /might/ be derrived from an archaic word for 'oath breaker' - as a wicca guy once insisted to me, as a reason for calling himself a 'witch' - but it's what the word means in modern english, that matters for a game published in modern english. And, since modern english meanings for things no longer believed in by the mainstream of native speakers - like magic and spirits - are more than a little vague, a game has a /lot/ of leeway when going there.
Me, I'm in the camp that doesn't want 'monks' (unless they're into illuminating manuscripts) or 'ki' in the game /because/ it's too asian, rather than because it's not asian enough.
Before this discussion goes any further, riddle me this:
What's to stop you from changing it yourselves? Wizards of the Coasts provide some mechanical rules and guidelines, but past that it's all just flavor anyways. If you want to make guys who use Ki and are knights, what's to stop you?
So its ok to be racist as long as I can change flavor text right.
So slaves should all be african-mythology based, as it can be changed in the Flavor text. Right.
Yes, I see what you did there. You said that ki should be exclusively Japanese because it isn't exclusively Asian, and then you said ki shouldn't be exclusive at all. I suspect that you may have been wearing a funny hat and capering as you were doing this, but I can't be certain.
You're not worth discussing anything with at all if you're going to blatantly lie like this.
I'm done here. Good bye.
How's Ki racist? Is it derogatory? Is it prejudice? I dig dwarf monks... I mean do they need to be asian to be monastic or introspective in their journeys? Ki = the self's spirit energy. It has nothing to do with purely asian classes by any means, It's merely the name of a power source. Everyone has Ki, just like anyone has access to a book of magic, or prayers.
It's not inherently racist, by itself, and in fact with your final sentence you show exactly how it can be used without being racist.
It only becomes racist when you insist that only Asian classes can use the Ki source and that all Asian classes must use the Ki power source.
It's subtle, but it's there. It's fine to have monks using the ki power source (heck, monks aren't even necessarily Asian by themselves!), but what would be wrong is making it so that every single Ki class is Asian, and every single Asian class is Ki.
Now, we already have Kensei as Martial, so I'm hoping that trend continues.
EDIT: Think of it as segregation and you should get the picture. It's like telling Asians they have to use a different bathroom than everyone else. Only bathroom, in this case, is "Power Source."
Does it make sense why some of us think it's a little "racist" now? I do agree it is subtle and DEFINITELY would be unintentional if WotC went ahead and made Ki = Asian, but it's still there. I just hope they make the right choice.
There's nothing wrong with calling it "Ki." There's only something wrong with saying that Asian and Ki are one and the same, and require each other. It's separating Asians from everyone else, who get to take any piece of the pie they want, other than Ki of course, which is restricted to Asians.
Think of it that way also, in fact. You have 8 cakes at 8 table. Each cake represents a Power Source (Arcane, Divine, Martial, Primal, Shadow, Elemental, Psi, and Ki). You have a variety of ethnic groups in the room, ranging from white/cacausian, latino, black, asian, etc. Everyone except Asians can have a piece of whatever cake they want, except the 8th cake (Ki). Asians can only have a piece of the 8th cake, they aren't allowed to touch any of the other 7.
It unnecessarily separates Asians from everyone else, pointing them out as "different." It's a little racist.
D&D is fantasy, not history, of course. But, seriously, warlock /might/ be derrived from an archaic word for 'oath breaker' - as a wicca guy once insisted to me, as a reason for calling himself a 'witch' - but it's what the word means in modern english, that matters for a game published in modern english. And, since modern english meanings for things no longer believed in by the mainstream of native speakers - like magic and spirits - are more than a little vague, a game has a /lot/ of leeway when going there.
somehow I missed this earlier, I was using Warlock as a simple statement as to why DnD has always failed the history checks, most Games do on Warlock in truth, but thats not here or there. I don't see what this has to do with the debate, I pointed out that DnD has always failed History because of classes like Warlock, Druid, and Paladin (though this to a lesser extent as in the early church a warrior of god didn't need to be strictly fully serving the church, it was still a more generic term for 'servant of' then anything else).
Me, I'm in the camp that doesn't want 'monks' (unless they're into illuminating manuscripts) or 'ki' in the game /because/ it's too asian, rather than because it's not asian enough.
Funny.
Templars - Warrior Monks
Hospitalars - Warrior Monks
Teutonic - Warrior Monks
Frasicans and Dominicans had monk orders taht were wanders and capable of defending themselves.
The idea that 'monk' means 'scholar' is as lame as Ki meaning Asian.
How's Ki racist? Is it derogatory? Is it prejudice? I dig dwarf monks... I mean do they need to be asian to be monastic or introspective in their journeys? Ki = the self's spirit energy. It has nothing to do with purely asian classes by any means, It's merely the name of a power source. Everyone has Ki, just like anyone has access to a book of magic, or prayers.
To help explain (expounding on earlier statments)
Racism is whenever you seperate groups of cultures/people/races. It doesn't matter if one is shown inherantly better or not, implying that humans from Asia are the only ones that know how to use their soul is a racist statement, as is stating that humans from asia can only use their soul.
Actually Ki and Martial are not synonyms in my mind any more than Divine or Arcane are. Both deal with internal focusing of Self, one through spirtual means (Ki) the other through training.
Of course, because Asian martial artists never train. They learn all of their techniques from spirits, and by meditating on the truth of the sword. They can also fly, and have blades that cut through stone.
Edit> Also, the crusaders were not clerics from DnD, at least as far the military orders (Templars, Hospitalers, Teutonic, et cetra) go, Clerics from DnD were based on rules handed to the friscian and other wandering priest orders who were given specific rules to avoid bloodshed (Thats why 1/2E weren't allowed anything but blunt weapons and 3/4E aren't trained in weapons like a fighter)
Your knowledge of history is good; possibly better than Gygax's. Gygax stated that the blunt weapons thing was born wholly of his own logic as a nod to class balance, since otherwise clerics would have been fighters with spells. His reasoning was the same -- priests shouldn't shed blood -- but he said that it was (to his knowledge) not based in historical fact.
Of course, because Asian martial artists never train. They learn all of their techniques from spirits, and by meditating on the truth of the sword. They can also fly, and have blades that cut through stone.
Thus why I don't think Ki should be exclusive Asian, or inclusive Asian. Really going pure historical Ki doesn't bleong, but allowing for legends, Monks for sure, depending on how 'ebil' they make Shadow maybe Ninjas. Samurai are fighters. until someone can demostrate to me that somehow their training was Diffrent from westerns in ways beyond just 'diffrent weapons' A western knight (even excluding the various orders) was highly trained, not just with the lance and sword as demostrated but with shortbows, picks, maces, daggers, and spears. Most had some inkling of large scale tatical warfare too, to say that because the West changed with the times when Japan didn't (Japan was exposed to chemically fired weapons (guns, et cetra) in a failed attempt at conquering Korea) somehow the West's training was inferior is akin to saying that because techophiles change with the time, luddites are better.
Your knowledge of history is good; possibly better than Gygax's. Gygax stated that the blunt weapons thing was born wholly of his own logic as a nod to class balance, since otherwise clerics would have been fighters with spells. His reasoning was the same -- priests shouldn't shed blood -- but he said that it was (to his knowledge) not based in historical fact.
Wandering priests of all kinds were armed, mostly due to the general lawlessness of the time, most had vows against shedding blood, but not vows on crushing bones. Gygax though wasn't a historian (I'm not either I just love it) he probably could tell you a lot about how various chivalric orders differed on the battlefield.
How about Ki as taking much stuff from Incarnum(? Incarnatum ?) and we drop the ugly retorts?
That's a great idea actually, and since Incarnum isn't listed as a power source they may do exactly that. Of course I never played in a game with incarnum so I don't know much about it, but just from the WotC page on it, it seems to fit, and would make sense, especially considering that's what they've done in a few areas already (merged different concepts into one, such as Goliath/Half-Giant, Drow/Dark Elf, etc).
To help explain (expounding on earlier statments)
Racism is whenever you seperate groups of cultures/people/races. It doesn't matter if one is shown inherantly better or not, implying that humans from Asia are the only ones that know how to use their soul is a racist statement, as is stating that humans from asia can only use their soul.
D&D's been doing that for a long time. 3rd Edition's racial prestige class restrictions were exactly this. If you weren't ticked that only elves could be Bladesingers or only Dwarves could be Defenders, then you shouldn't be ticked if only Monks use Ki.
D&D's been doing that for a long time. 3rd Edition's racial prestige class restrictions were exactly this. If you weren't ticked that only elves could be Bladesingers or only Dwarves could be Defenders, then you shouldn't be ticked if only Monks use Ki.
1. Dwarves/Evles aren't real.
2. I don't care if Monks use Ki. If only asian classes use it, and only Ki is used by asian themed classes, its racism. Real racism. I don't care about 'oh elves and humans are different' as they aren't real. Asian people and European People have both made similar observations about things, infact the folded steel technicque people are so hyped about with Japanese blades, was used by the Norse (It is suspected), at the same time, the belief in the soul is universal, the belief that someone who is filled with desire can achieve something is universal. To make it exclusive to one culture (asian) is to say they are fundamentally different. And they aren't.
Europeans do the crusades...
Asians meditate...
Do we see a little bit of difference here? I mean ity is a very broad generalization, but that doesn't make it less valid. Ki is an extension of Asian religions (at leat that's how I see it...) whereas European religion is... Well... Catholic. (That last remark is actually humorous... I couldn't find an adjective...)
Well the approach to certain things is vastly different between cultures.
Europeans do the crusades...
Asians meditate...
Actually the wide spread bloodshed in tibet when buddhism spread there says they didn't do things That differently. The bloodshed at every turn in Asia (similar to Europe) proves that they don't.
Do we see a little bit of difference here? I mean ity is a very broad generalization, but that doesn't make it less valid. Ki is an extension of Asian religions (at leat that's how I see it...) whereas European religion is... Well... Catholic. (That last remark is actually humorous... I couldn't find an adjective...)
Actually, Ki isn't an extension of All asian religions (which is part of my beef with Asia= Ki) and by that statement it means that Martial is an extension of Western Religion, which is flagrantly wrong.
Buddhism (especially Tibeaten) and Taoism and Shintoism are the main driving force of Ki in one form or another
Confucism, Most forms of Hinduism (Tantra and Krishnian are exceptions to them), Anmisim all do not have Ki as strong elements (or other soul powered) at least not to a degree beyond western religion.
And I realize martial isn't an extension of any religion. Divine is.
Ki is all but guaranteed as a power source. As for what powers are called... I don't care. I'll end up just calling them powers anyway.
Humanity has a single undercurrent: Violence. It's everywhere. Human beings are some of the most dangerous things on the planet. We make most of those things we call "monsters" seem tame and kind. However that is neither here nor there.
Ki is rooted in Asian culture. Whether openly or not. Tied into ritiuals of honor, or quiet meditation. Of course you could use a less culture-specific term, If I had one I would. There are massive differences in cultures, "Ki" as a power source illustrates the difference of these cultures.
Yhough in truth it need not be tied into just asian culture. Rather any culture which derives strength from inner calm.
I'll give you a hint... The cultures of Europe most definitely do not meet that criteria. Well most of them anyway.
I'm not a history buff. I'm not a culture buff either. My point was focused more on the fact that Ki is an extension of some of the religions.
And I realize martial isn't an extension of any religion. Divine is.
Thats the thing though If Ki is used solely for Asian classes and Asian classes are solely Ki they have effectively said Arcane/Divine/Martial are European. Its not just wrong, its insulting to both side.
Ki is all but guaranteed as a power source. As for what powers are called... I don't care. I'll end up just calling them powers anyway.
Humanity has a single undercurrent: Violence. It's everywhere. Human beings are some of the most dangerous things on the planet. We make most of those things we call "monsters" seem tame and kind. However that is neither here nor there.
Ki is rooted in Asian culture. Whether openly or not. Tied into ritiuals of honor, or quiet meditation. Of course you could use a less culture-specific term, If I had one I would. There are massive differences in cultures, "Ki" as a power source illustrates the difference of these cultures.
Yhough in truth it need not be tied into just asian culture. Rather any culture which derives strength from inner calm.
I'll give you a hint... The cultures of Europe most definitely do not meet that criteria. Well most of them anyway.
Um, actually most of them do have deep thinkers be it in the form of medicant and cenobite (not the Hellraiser kind) monks of their own to the quiet calm of acceptance to the many others. Ki has nothing to do with Sereneness though
Ki is japanese for Qi which is chinese thats is a type of energy flow.
Hippocratius, Pythagerous, Zeno (two of three I know) and several other Greek philosophers pontificated to no end about energy flows (indeed up through pasteur's experiments all illness was thought to be the body not having proper flow because of pasteur, and even after pasteur holes were drilled in the heads of mentally ill poeple to relieve pressure).
Zorastor and Mitherism both deal with energies.
There is no reason for 'ki' and soulpowered (which is what they are calling ki) clases to have a racial type thrust upon them.
Understanding the energy flow within one's own body requires introspection.
It doesn't force an Asian flavor, but it does hit on the "search the soul" feeling of certain religions.
Let me put it this way...
Ki is Asia's Arcane. Really. Or perhaps it's Asia's Divine... I'm not quite sure... Seems Arcane simply because it isn't (aleays) religious.
Would it be Racist to say that "Arcane Magic" is a European thing? I think of Asia and I think mysticism, Chants, Mantras, etc. Arcane magic reminds me of Witches and European religion, potions, brews, spells, etc.
Would that be acceptable? A different way of harnessing the basic energies of the Arcane. Ki representing using the body's natural energy to perform the impossible rather than using formula to direct those events (differeing from Sorceror in that Sorcerors don't use their own energies). Divine would exist in "Asian" classes as recieved from "higher power," martial would remain a thing of training.
Well...
Understanding the energy flow within one's own body requires introspection.
It doesn't force an Asian flavor, but it does hit on the "search the soul" feeling of certain religions.
I'm sorry, are you implying that Medicant monks don't search the soul? Or cloistered benedicatians? Or Zorastorians? Or how about the Cathars who entire heresy was based around it?
Let me put it this way...
Ki is Asia's Arcane. Really. Or perhaps it's Asia's Divine... I'm not quite sure... Seems Arcane simply because it isn't (aleays) religious.
Would it be Racist to say that "Arcane Magic" is a European thing? I think of Asia and I think mysticism, Chants, Mantras, etc. Arcane magic reminds me of Witches and European religion, potions, brews, spells, etc.
Yes, it would be.
Arcane as a power source has nothing to do with Europe
Ki as a power source has nothing to do with Asia.
Making cultures that simulate Asia and forcing them into the Ki hole is racist
Allowing only european feudalistic societies to have Arcane is stupidly and ridiculously racist.
Would that be acceptable? A different way of harnessing the basic energies of the Arcane. Ki representing using the body's natural energy to perform the impossible rather than using formula to direct those events (differeing from Sorceror in that Sorcerors don't use their own energies). Divine would exist in "Asian" classes as recieved from "higher power," martial would remain a thing of training.
This here is the problem, Mystery religions have exsisted for eons in both Europe and Asia. ITs not all practioners of Buddhism that deserve Ki, but by your logic, bacchian priests don't exsist, neither does Pythagoreans, Eleusian, Orphic beliefs, and that's just a mild searching for ancient mystery religions and excludes the dozens of varieties of gnosticism and Kabbal and Mithraism and Zor Astor. There is no reason ANY of these aren't valid builds for westernized characters, but limiting Ki to JUST asia, forces them out as viable, as the Cleric isn't a cotemplative type, he is an agressor, and the Paladin is an armed solider as well, which while I could make it work for Mithra's style, what about a Pythagorean one of the people who believe in sacred numbers and yet at the same time refuses to eat meat and does his best not to harm others?
And what about all the herbalists who subscribe to Hippocratic Theory which is profoundly similar to chi flow in ancient Chinese remedies?
Frankly, I don't give a **** about religion. I think religion is absolutely useless.
Here is the concept...
A Ki user uses enegry flow within themself to manipulate tthings outside themself. (Not in the same way as Psionic power...)
An Arcane user uses formulae to manipulate the undercurrents of reality.
This is not in any way attached to any religion or culture. It just so happens that many aspects of Asian culture lend themselves to Ki. However there are some aspects of Asian culture that are Arcane.
Arcane is power hungry. Unrestricted. Fast. It is much more prevalent in the European cultures. Not to say that there are no Ki cultures in Europe.
I never suggested limiting. You inferred it fro an implication I made. Guess what? It just so happens that "Ki" cultures are more common in the orient. Just like unscrupulous, bloodthirsty, gluttonous cultures are more common in the west.
Would it be Racist to say that "Arcane Magic" is a European thing?
Yes.
Particularly when you consider that Wu Jen have always been (and always should be) Arcane, not Ki. Also, some Ninja concepts are also Arcane (although I'm hoping the 4e Ninja is Shadow).
Finally, some previous edition non-Asian classes that would suit the Ki power source are: Incarnate, Swordsage, Warblade, and even Knight.
Some Asian concepts might work better under other power sources:
Ninja (Shadow)
Samurai (Martial)
Shugenja (Divine)
Sohei (Divine)
Wu Jen (Arcane)
Of those, Samurai seems most likely to get the Ki treatment, with Ninja being another possibility. I highly, highly, highly doubt that Shugenja, Sohei, and Wu Jen will be treated as Ki. It just doesn't make any sense at all.
So even if all three of Monk, Ninja, and Samurai get shoved into Ki (which I personally doubt), that leaves 1 spot left-- likely to be filled by Swordsage or something similar.
If Wu Jen get anything other than Arcane, they're doing it wrong. (Well, I suppose Elemental can slide, depending on how they play it.)
Just like unscrupulous, bloodthirsty, gluttonous cultures are more common in the west.
You are looking through rose-colored glasses if you think the Orient is nothing but peace-loving people.
The **** of Nanking immediately comes to mind, one of the bloodiest atrocities ever seen by man (right up there with the Holocaust).
Don't forget that Japan was the one that bombed Pearl Harbor.
Just look at the issues between North Korea and South Korea, or Vietnam, or between China and Japan.
Or heck, just read up on the Great Wall.
I'm not saying the East is worse than the West by any means, but to say that they aren't bloodthirsty and unscrupulous "like the west" is very, very, very wrong. They're human, just like people in the west are human.
The west has nearly wiped out how many races? 2 at the lest... Or at least tried...
I don't think of the Orient as filled with peace-lovers. I'm saying that the west produced monsters that exist only to ruin everything they lay hands on. I'm serious.
The Nordic people were bred for battle. So too were Romans and Spartans. It's easy to commit one of the bloodiest atrocities of history when you have some of the highest population in history. Hell the West managed to commit some of the most jeinous acts in history without having a particularly high population.
I personally dislike culture, race, and any other form of marker. It's idiotic. It's useless. But it's there and it's a marker that shows a rather large gap between east and west.
I'm referring to concepts here.
Frankly, I don't give a **** about religion. I think religion is absolutely useless.
Here is the concept...
A Ki user uses enegry flow within themself to manipulate tthings outside themself. (Not in the same way as Psionic power...)
An Arcane user uses formulae to manipulate the undercurrents of reality.
*sigh*
Ok let me spell it out for you
The Mystery Religions all have a style that are like, Braachian/Demeter cults are very much into sensation of all kinds (indeed braachian was synonyms with hedonism for a long long time) They are not Arcane and are not Divine. Not Psi.
should be Ki, but if we limit it to just Asia, nope.
The Orphean myteries relate to Orpheus who wasn't even a god, but a king in thrace.
Pythegoreans also are not a religion (indeed in many of their practices
mirrored Buddhism which wouldn't be around for many centuries later). Again though, despite belieiving in sacred geometery they felt it was as much an internal geometery as external, so Arcane by your definition doesn't fit.
And you get right down to it, the group wizards are based on wouldn't fit either as they weren't formulatic.
Hippocraties - Again not religion, infact he is the father of modern medicine that wasn't based on the idea of gods hating us.
This is not in any way attached to any religion or culture. It just so happens that many aspects of Asian culture lend themselves to Ki. However there are some aspects of Asian culture that are Arcane.
Arcane is power hungry. Unrestricted. Fast. It is much more prevalent in the European cultures. Not to say that there are no Ki cultures in Europe.
I never suggested limiting. You inferred it fro an implication I made. Guess what? It just so happens that "Ki" cultures are more common in the orient. Just like unscrupulous, bloodthirsty, gluttonous cultures are more common in the west.
Mongols, Tartars, Huns, Magyrs, The First chin emperor, the Turkic people.
All these groups are horribly bloodthirsty and gluttonous. Hell I haven't even touched the Indian groups like the thuggee cult (you know where we get Thug from), Do you know Chinese refer to anyone not Chinese as? Demons. Do you know that its ok to kill Demons? Do as you will with them?
Japan is similar, if you are not Japanese you are not worthy of being mentioned in their mind.
If you honestly think that the West has a stranglehold on unscrupulous behavior, read up on the Nogano Olympic games and the controversy that surrounds it as they bought it essentially
Oh and look up Yakuza, tell me how any culture that has gangsters in their upper echelon of goverment is in ANY way scrupulous?
Does the west have simliar problems? Yes. That's immaterial, believing the East is some how a santified holy ground of deep thinks is wrong.
Anyway... Keep in mind that the very fact that the White race exists is the result of just about mass genocide and complete destruction of more than a few species and you'll get the idea.
2000+ years of war in the west. Think about it... Over a chunk of useless desert no less. At least most of asia ia fertile enough to support life.
I suppose we could catalogue every war in both sides of the world and the total death tally... We'd have to include the fact that Europe subjugated two entire continents (OK maybe more like ~4). Actually technically that was a combination of Spain, Britain and France. So three (small) countries subjugated ~4 continents. How much did the asian cultures get to?
Gladiators... Atom Bomb... Holocaust... The complete destruction of the Native American people...
The west has nearly wiped out how many races? 2 at the lest... Or at least tried...
Ainu Burakumin
Dungan Revolt
Ended in Chinese killing off the Hui people they could get to (the rest fled to Russia)
Oh and then there is Tibet.
All this horrible treatment is just in the past three centuries.
In the thirteenth century the Mongol warriors deceimeated the areas we know as Afghistan and Pakistan, leaving behind no one but their turkic allies.
Again I am not going to India with their endless bloodshed.
It simply is not possible to have a more wrongful view of E/W in terms of humanity treatment.
As a further note, Native American population are around, and in fact there are four states (New Mexico, Arizonia, Wyoming, Alaska) with significant populations, and many more with pluraities of them (South Dakota, north Dakota), in case you haven't seen all the indian casino signs in almost every state.
I don't think of the Orient as filled with peace-lovers. I'm saying that the west produced monsters that exist only to ruin everything they lay hands on. I'm serious.
Read the first chin emperor's exploits
Read the Thugge Cults
Read about the Mongols.
Read about the Japanese/korean wars.
We produce monsters they produce monsters. Keep in mind that technically Turkic people have an asianic origin.
The Nordic people were bred for battle. So too were Romans and Spartans. It's easy to commit one of the bloodiest atrocities of history when you have some of the highest population in history. Hell the West managed to commit some of the most jeinous acts in history without having a particularly high population.
Heh, so uh, the Nordic people who perfected a way of sailing we are only now beginning to understand, who explored the new world at least four centuries possibly closer to a millenia before Columbus they are only bred for battle? Why because they accepted the world would end in blood shed? New term for you: Kali Yuga.
Spartans were actually originally peace niks of the Grecian groups, then a slave revolt that they barely survived and they changed their outlook.
I personally dislike culture, race, and any other form of marker. It's idiotic. It's useless. But it's there and it's a marker that shows a rather large gap between east and west.
No actually the gap exsists only when you do not look at things with open eyes. Or without studying the history of something. Actually let me be more blunt, when you allow prejudice of any kind to taint your view.
Well... I don't see it as sanctified holy ground. I see it as a bit more rigidly defined than the west actually.
Anyway... Keep in mind that the very fact that the White race exists is the result of just about mass genocide and complete destruction of more than a few species and you'll get the idea.
2000+ years of war in the west. Think about it... Over a chunk of useless desert no less. At least most of asia ia fertile enough to support life.
Its clsoer to forty centuries to be honest, probably roughly from Mesopatimia times, but then we still don't know what happened to the Ghanges river people, or about a dozen other groups in Asia that were wiped out in prehistory. We do know that from its beginning the east has matched the west in bloodshed and war.
You give me 2000+ years over desert, I give 3000+ years over mountain passes.
I give two countries whose civil conflicts are of such they have entire periods known as the warring states era.
I give you a coutnry who had a period known as the five kingdoms and three emperors.
I suppose we could catalogue every war in both sides of the world and the total death tally... We'd have to include the fact that Europe subjugated two entire continents (OK maybe more like ~4). Actually technically that was a combination of Spain, Britain and France. So three (small) countries subjugated ~4 continents. How much did the asian cultures get to?
AGain
Mongols Killed an entire region of people
conqured up through Muscovy.
conquered Arabia
Looted Constanople.
One region so in hospitabile its population today is less than a tenth of the US, Destroyed a region and conquered to the largest continous empire in history and second largest empire period.
One nation who was at the time predomiantly Buddhist. (is now too I think, though I know muslims have been making inroads).
Britian/France/Spain did it over four hundred years
Genghis did it in a single generation
Kubali Khan did it again
Britian conquered india by getting its native people to support her
Ganghis did it through killing any who stood in his way.
As for Genghis Khan...
I love that guy. He should have been European. Then Rome wouldn't have fallen...
The Nordic people were bred for battle.
Stereotyping much? Read up on Peter Sawyers, Gwynn Jones and Lars Lönnroth, amongst others, and you'll learn how false that statement was.
Think of it that way also, in fact. You have 8 cakes at 8 table. Each cake represents a Power Source (Arcane, Divine, Martial, Primal, Shadow, Elemental, Psi, and Ki). You have a variety of ethnic groups in the room, ranging from white/cacausian, latino, black, asian, etc. Everyone except Asians can have a piece of whatever cake they want, except the 8th cake (Ki). Asians can only have a piece of the 8th cake, they aren't allowed to touch any of the other 7.
It unnecessarily separates Asians from everyone else, pointing them out as "different." It's a little racist.
Except, if you would stop insisting on things for a minute, you'd realize that
a) you and the other people saying 'KI IS RACIST' are the only ones introducing racism into the picture
b) WotC hasn't said that about Ki AT ALL
and c) this thread should be locked for excessively racist comments before things get waaaay too out of hand
I don't make intentionally racist comments. I just say things the way I see them. But before long I'll prolly start to step on some major toes.
Except, if you would stop insisting on things for a minute, you'd realize that
a) you and the other people saying 'KI IS RACIST' are the only ones introducing racism into the picture
b) WotC hasn't said that about Ki AT ALL
and c) this thread should be locked for excessively racist comments before things get waaaay too out of hand
And if you'd stop insisting on things yourself you'd realize that
a) I never said "Ki is racist" or even implied it, and saying I'm the one bringing racism into the picture is like saying Lincoln brought racism into the picture when he emancipated blacks (and that before that point there was no racism);
b) I know WotC hasn't said anything about Ki, in fact they've implied that there will be non-Asian classes using the Ki power source and Asian classes using a different source (in fact we already have Kensei) so I don't know what you're throwing a fit about, all I've said is that I hope they continue this trend;
c) I don't see anyone being blatantly racist, and this same discussion is taking place on the Future Releases board (where Awesome_Dude is making the same arguments that Aluman and myself are here) so they'd both have to be blocked, which I'm not entirely against anyhow.
I've tried to be respectful in this thread and the irony is that I'm the one against racism and I've faced some rather harsh remarks just for hoping for sensitivity on WotC's part. It's not like I've accused anyone of being racist (I haven't, and I don't think anyone here is racist anyway). Race is a sensitive subject and I think it would be in WotC's best interest to avoid it by simply allowing Asian-flavored classes access to other power sources and to likewise allow non-Asian-flavored classes access to the Ki source. Should make everyone happy.
Depends. Jutsu is singular, jutsus is plural. I have no idea what plural jutsu is in Japanese, or if they even apply plural/singular directly to nouns.
Wrong. AMA and MLA formatting, the two most respected forms of using english both state when borrowing words from a foreign language use the original language's pluralization rules. Since Japanese uses no pluralization modifiers on words, Justus is not an appropriate pluralization.
1. Dwarves/Evles aren't real.
2. I don't care if Monks use Ki. If only asian classes use it, and only Ki is used by asian themed classes, its racism. Real racism. I don't care about 'oh elves and humans are different' as they aren't real. Asian people and European People have both made similar observations about things, infact the folded steel technicque people are so hyped about with Japanese blades, was used by the Norse (It is suspected), at the same time, the belief in the soul is universal, the belief that someone who is filled with desire can achieve something is universal. To make it exclusive to one culture (asian) is to say they are fundamentally different. And they aren't.
Unless your game world has a continent called 'Asia' and 'Europe', and takes place with some degree of historical accuracy, you're still dealing with things that don't exist. It's the EXACT same thing.
Frag, we can't even prove KI exists in the real world. Why is this a big deal? The only power source that confirmably exists in the real world is Martial, because people hit other people with things.
Ergo:
If I have a contitent filled with dark skined humans who hunter/gathers and I give them -2 INT its racist, as they are clearly based on Africans.
If I have a contitent filled with yellow skin shorter people with dark hair who all use Ki and have no other power source except maybe martial, its Racist as they are based on Asians (in particular East Asians)
If I have a contitent with white skinned folks who have only one god they worship, and they have any kind of modifer or special note its racist as they are clearly based on europeans.
So If Ninjas, Monks, Samurai, Wu Jen, Yogis, Taoists, Imperial Guard, and Ronin all use Ki, its safe to presume that Asians are depciated as only using Ki source power, and only asians using Ki power. Which would be racist.
Except, if you would stop insisting on things for a minute, you'd realize that
a) you and the other people saying 'KI IS RACIST' are the only ones introducing racism into the picture
Actually if you stop and think about it, you would realize that it would be racist whether we said it was or wasn't. Seriously, look it up.
Racism, by its simplest definition, is the belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities.
Thus: If a power source is limited on cultural identity it is racist, as the primary determinant of who can use this power source to have powers is based on Race.
Does this mean that technically elven and dwarven only classes are racist? Yes. But as there are no real elves or dwarves (in the fantasy species living underground sense) this racism doesn't matter.
b) WotC hasn't said that about Ki AT ALL
and c) this thread should be locked for excessively racist comments before things get waaaay too out of hand
Nope, they haven't, everyone on this thread and the others that have cropped have, I don't feel like digging through and pointing them all out right now, but general consensus is that Ki = Asian, which is what SC, Myself and some others are saying is a load of balgona. As to it being locked it probably should to be honest I am reaching a point where I am not likely to continue posting on this thread, as my points are just having to be repeated over and over again, which is basically non productive.
Ki=Pneuma. There. Cosmos as in Saint Seiya perhaps.
It's not racism per se, at worse stereotyping. On se calme?
I don't know what the big deal is. None of us can force WotC to do things our way, on either side of the fence.
All I said initially was that I hope they don't limit Ki to just Asian concepts. Why is that a big deal to everyone? Why do you care what I personally hope WotC does? Why do you have to jump all over me for that? It doesn't make any sense.
I guess I just don't understand why this had to be turned into a "fight" (using the term loosely) by those who want to restrict Ki to just Asian concepts.
As the debates continued on I tried to present my points respectfully and politely.
Well, whatever then. I was polite, I wasn't given respect in turn-- that's enough for me, then.
Consider the discussion dropped.
Damn, I really like "Jutsu". If it's going to be "Ki" origin, and not "Chi", I feel that using a Japanese word fits in perfectly. Now, do I say "Level 1 Daily Jutsu" out of respect for correctness, or do I bastardize it and use "Jutsus".
Wizards of the Coast doesn't know the difference.
Other Ki using classes could include the Spirit Whisperer, Shaman, Soulknife (if it uses the power of the individual soul instead of the mind), or Grey Guard's to an extent. Not one of those is strictly asian. Monk's are certainly not strictly asian. Ninja's are now so bastardized that they are no longer strictly asian (I've seen blonde haired ninjas in orange jumpsuits. All is lost).
This is ridiculous, and only racist if you make it that way. A fantasy environment can be whatever the hell you want it to be. Ki is just an idea: Call it Soul Power or something if it makes you feel better. (Pneuma sounds pretty tight actually)
Shenanigans! Ki is a name for a power source not a people or a representation of a people. It may be the product of a certain culture, but it is certainly not a wholesale representation by any means.
Other Ki using classes could include the Spirit Whisperer, Shaman, Soulknife (if it uses the power of the individual soul instead of the mind), or Grey Guard's to an extent. Not one of those is strictly asian. Monk's are certainly not strictly asian. Ninja's are now so bastardized that they are no longer strictly asian (I've seen blonde haired ninjas in orange jumpsuits. All is lost).
This is ridiculous, and only racist if you make it that way. A fantasy environment can be whatever the hell you want it to be. Ki is just an idea: Call it Soul Power or something if it makes you feel better. (Pneuma sounds pretty tight actually)
Sigh. I know I said I dropped the discussion but I just want to address this really quickly because I think Matthew's position here sums up the misconception many people have of the arguments Aluman and I (and others) are making.
We are not calling Ki racist. In fact, our arguments look incredibly similar to Matthew's points here. In further fact I have to say I agree with Matthew 100%. 100%.
Does that clear up any confusion?
I vote techniques as an over arching Ki name. It's just broad enough to keep things from involving race, and just specific enough to describe what Ki does: Wiktionary= "a way of accomplishing a task that is not immediately obvious."
Unless you can see souls, a ki user's technique's wouldn't be immediately obvious. Now let's see how many interesting Ki using classes we can cook up before WoTC, then see how many need some sort of revision, after.
Soul Power!!! Shall we have a trinity of power in mind, body, and soul?