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Large scale battle in 4e?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Namagem
May 11, 2009 0:28:37 As the level of play gets higher, people are likely to get armies and troops to do fighting for them.
My question is, are there any existing vanilla/homebrew rules for this kind of thing? I could think of a way to do it, but I'm curious about if there are any already made.
#2
gregt_314
May 11, 2009 0:42:57
As the level of play gets higher, people are likely to get armies and troops to do fighting for them.

Not in 4th Ed. This was an assumption in earlier editions but it's not a good assumption. D&D is a game about individual heroes from beginning to end - it stays about dungeons and about dragons (literally or metaphorically), and really shouldn't devolve into Generals & Grunts or Warmongers & Wastelands. There are other games that do that.

The sort of stories you're doing should be stories that benefit from the direct agency of the players, rather than from their executive management of an organisation that considers the exploration of dungeons and the slaying of dragons as part of its core business.

So... resist the temptation to make your players generals. If they're generals, they're in the "General Han Solo" in Star Wars sense, where they're really still leading the charge and undertaking the special missions.

That's not to say you won't want to play with armies from time to time. Leading an army for one session and one session only can be kind of neat, or you might want players to be doing something in the midst of a mass battle. You can do it as a skill challenge - think of "Bluff" and "Intimidate" used at a giant, tactical scale, if your players are commanding.

Or you can do it as a series of individual representative encounters - on the field of battle, your players find a skilled champion and his platoon; if they defeat him, the tide of battle in that sector of the battlefield swings in the players' favour. Or they might get a chance to intercept a group of trolls carrying a battering ram, or to rally a group of faltering soldiers to take a nearby fortification, or what have you.

Don't let too many mechanics get in the way. Remember it's the story of your players, not the story of the other soldiers and generals. We ultimately only care what happens in the battle so far as it affects the players, and we only care what the players do so far as it affects their own stories.

If you and your players are really desperate to actually recreate a battle in full, just tack in an existing wargaming system such as Warhammer or Chronopia or something. It's an inelegant solution to a non-existent problem but it will get the job done.
#3
Sinasilver
May 11, 2009 6:49:06 I ran a tower defense/siege defense not that long ago for my players. I gave them their defenses... Threw a LOT of minions at them.. And a few non-minions to serve as generals.. When a minion died, I had them respawn at the back of the battle field on their former initiative. If one of the others died, it stayed dead.

I also declared, "There are a lot more guys than this on the field. but this is what you care about." So they had even more fun imagining their area effects trashing entire swathes of enemies they didn't have to worry about attacking back.

They really loved it.
#4
AbdulAlhazred
May 12, 2009 16:52:27 There is no specific 4e mass combat system on the market right now AFAIK.

If you want a mass combat tabletop sort of mechanics then you have 2 choices, homebrew it (or find someone else's) or use/adapt an existing system. There are oodles of commercial systems that have been published over the years, both DnD specific and otherwise. Chain Mail is the oldest (the core mechanics of old DnD are basically chain mail). It will work, with some suitable tweaks to the various troops. There was also AD&D Battlesystem which was published back in the early 90's for 2e. It is pretty much Chain Mail with a more specifically DnD specific rules. I could probably list a few dozen others, but those are ones that have been published specifically for earlier editions that I am familiar with.

All that being said the question really is, is a mass combat system what you want? It will be great if your players would like to play out an epic sized battle of some kind and move armies around, but it is rather different from standard RPG play.
#5
Goober4473
May 12, 2009 22:23:43 You might be interested in something I wrote a little while ago. It has some rules for larger scale combat. Nothing amazingly specific, but it's a system to work off of, if you want. It's part of a group of things I wrote about monsters. I'll post my follow-up as well, in case anyone's interested, but it doesn't concern large scale battle.

Monster Relativity: http://www.edanet.com/goober/Monster_Relativity.pdf
More on Scaling Monsters: http://www.edanet.com/goober/Scaling_Monsters.pdf
#6
belakrefip
May 13, 2009 15:42:01 You should check out today's Ruling Skill Challeges article. It looks like it's dealing with exactly what you are looking for.
#7
xiahouxu
May 13, 2009 16:17:30 I'd do it as a series of encounters where the PCs are doing important things (Sneaking in and taking supply routes, maybe. Or sabotaging the enemy's siege weapons, or defeating an elite platoon)
Then, the results of those encounters determines a modifier on a comin skill challenge. Perhaps even set a round limit, so they start to take negative modifiers if they aren't fast enough.

Make it tense, and make them feel things are going on around them they aren't entirely in control of.
#8
That_Blasted_Somoflange
May 14, 2009 15:01:13 There's always the method of, as a DM, determining who you want to win because of the story, and have the outcome not be a result of dice rolls, but the outcome of what furthers the plot. The PC's affect the outcome of the battle by trying to defeat certain foes/siege engines, etc. etc. and if they are successful the heroes side doesn't lose as many soldiers, if they fail, then the battle is won but has a higher number of casualties - the battle is one, but a higher cost, perhaps making defense of area impossible.

Of course if you want random large scale battles, why don't you just play warhammer and paint your hq or leader mini like your D&D character.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Namagem May 11, 2009 0:28:37	As the level of play gets higher, people are likely to get armies and troops to do fighting for them. My question is, are there any existing vanilla/homebrew rules for this kind of thing? I could think of a way to do it, but I'm curious about if there are any already made.
#2 gregt_314 May 11, 2009 0:42:57	As the level of play gets higher, people are likely to get armies and troops to do fighting for them. Not in 4th Ed. This was an assumption in earlier editions but it's not a good assumption. D&D is a game about individual heroes from beginning to end - it stays about dungeons and about dragons (literally or metaphorically), and really shouldn't devolve into Generals & Grunts or Warmongers & Wastelands. There are other games that do that. The sort of stories you're doing should be stories that benefit from the direct agency of the players, rather than from their executive management of an organisation that considers the exploration of dungeons and the slaying of dragons as part of its core business. So... resist the temptation to make your players generals. If they're generals, they're in the "General Han Solo" in Star Wars sense, where they're really still leading the charge and undertaking the special missions. That's not to say you won't want to play with armies from time to time. Leading an army for one session and one session only can be kind of neat, or you might want players to be doing something in the midst of a mass battle. You can do it as a skill challenge - think of "Bluff" and "Intimidate" used at a giant, tactical scale, if your players are commanding. Or you can do it as a series of individual representative encounters - on the field of battle, your players find a skilled champion and his platoon; if they defeat him, the tide of battle in that sector of the battlefield swings in the players' favour. Or they might get a chance to intercept a group of trolls carrying a battering ram, or to rally a group of faltering soldiers to take a nearby fortification, or what have you. Don't let too many mechanics get in the way. Remember it's the story of your players, not the story of the other soldiers and generals. We ultimately only care what happens in the battle so far as it affects the players, and we only care what the players do so far as it affects their own stories. If you and your players are really desperate to actually recreate a battle in full, just tack in an existing wargaming system such as Warhammer or Chronopia or something. It's an inelegant solution to a non-existent problem but it will get the job done.
#3 Sinasilver May 11, 2009 6:49:06	I ran a tower defense/siege defense not that long ago for my players. I gave them their defenses... Threw a LOT of minions at them.. And a few non-minions to serve as generals.. When a minion died, I had them respawn at the back of the battle field on their former initiative. If one of the others died, it stayed dead. I also declared, "There are a lot more guys than this on the field. but this is what you care about." So they had even more fun imagining their area effects trashing entire swathes of enemies they didn't have to worry about attacking back. They really loved it.
#4 AbdulAlhazred May 12, 2009 16:52:27	There is no specific 4e mass combat system on the market right now AFAIK. If you want a mass combat tabletop sort of mechanics then you have 2 choices, homebrew it (or find someone else's) or use/adapt an existing system. There are oodles of commercial systems that have been published over the years, both DnD specific and otherwise. Chain Mail is the oldest (the core mechanics of old DnD are basically chain mail). It will work, with some suitable tweaks to the various troops. There was also AD&D Battlesystem which was published back in the early 90's for 2e. It is pretty much Chain Mail with a more specifically DnD specific rules. I could probably list a few dozen others, but those are ones that have been published specifically for earlier editions that I am familiar with. All that being said the question really is, is a mass combat system what you want? It will be great if your players would like to play out an epic sized battle of some kind and move armies around, but it is rather different from standard RPG play.
#5 Goober4473 May 12, 2009 22:23:43	You might be interested in something I wrote a little while ago. It has some rules for larger scale combat. Nothing amazingly specific, but it's a system to work off of, if you want. It's part of a group of things I wrote about monsters. I'll post my follow-up as well, in case anyone's interested, but it doesn't concern large scale battle. Monster Relativity: http://www.edanet.com/goober/Monster_Relativity.pdf More on Scaling Monsters: http://www.edanet.com/goober/Scaling_Monsters.pdf
#6 belakrefip May 13, 2009 15:42:01	You should check out today's Ruling Skill Challeges article. It looks like it's dealing with exactly what you are looking for.
#7 xiahouxu May 13, 2009 16:17:30	I'd do it as a series of encounters where the PCs are doing important things (Sneaking in and taking supply routes, maybe. Or sabotaging the enemy's siege weapons, or defeating an elite platoon) Then, the results of those encounters determines a modifier on a comin skill challenge. Perhaps even set a round limit, so they start to take negative modifiers if they aren't fast enough. Make it tense, and make them feel things are going on around them they aren't entirely in control of.
#8 That_Blasted_Somoflange May 14, 2009 15:01:13	There's always the method of, as a DM, determining who you want to win because of the story, and have the outcome not be a result of dice rolls, but the outcome of what furthers the plot. The PC's affect the outcome of the battle by trying to defeat certain foes/siege engines, etc. etc. and if they are successful the heroes side doesn't lose as many soldiers, if they fail, then the battle is won but has a higher number of casualties - the battle is one, but a higher cost, perhaps making defense of area impossible. Of course if you want random large scale battles, why don't you just play warhammer and paint your hq or leader mini like your D&D character.