Large Scale Warfare - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Large Scale Warfare

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
nightwalker450
Oct 08, 2008 12:58:51 I'm plotting a larger scale assault, that I want the characters to take part in. There will be troops on both sides, potentially hundreds on either side. So for this encounter, I'm changing some things to allow for this. Give me your feedback...

Scaling of Time and Space: First we scale things back to show this scope:
One square is 50 feet
One round is 1 minute
Speeds stay the same, since both time and space scaled the same.
All figures are effectively medium sized, and there is no reach.
All ranges/blasts are divided by 10 (rounded down,minimum 1).
All bursts are divided by 10 (rounded down).

Mostly Swarms: Creatures are converted to swarms using the following conversions:
Swarm Resistance (half damage from non area attacks)
Speed -1
All melee attacks change to burst (or close blast) when burst +2 attack, +2 damage
Having an allied swarm between you and the enemy does apply partial concealment that you can maintain stealth with

The Few Figure Heads: Characters and other important figures, can join into an allied swarm, and gain the following benefits:
Synching movement to swarm. Spend your move action to move with the swarm. If the swarm moves, you move with it. If the swarm is forced to move, and you are not, you may choose to move with the swarm.
You gain Full Concealment, or Partial Concealment if the swarm is bloodied. Note this doesn't protect you from other swarms, since they make area attacks. Just makes it harder for someone to pick you off from the crowd
You do not provoke Opportunity Attacks
Any attack against the swarm uses the same attack (no new roll) against you.
Attacks against the swarm (including area attacks) that damage you, deal reduced damage based on health of swarm:
swarm > 3/4 health - 0 damage
swarm > 1/2 health - 1/4 damage
swarm > 1/4 health - 1/2 damage

#2
nightwalker450
Oct 08, 2008 12:59:21 Using this system, it will allow me to easily convert any monster into a swarm of monsters. Characters can choose whether to remain within the safety of a swarm, or they can choose to try their own luck.

Allied swarms, you'll probably want to scale their damage down slightly (so as not to overshadow players since players will only be dealing 1/2 damage). I'd recommend choosing allies who have some nice forced movement affects.

This could work without allied swarms as well, but if you take them out you'll want to choose lower level enemies. Since I'm relying on the defensive bonuses (and extra attacks) of the allies, to balance up the power increase on the enemies.

Some might complain that with most everything being swarms powers will be significantly reduced. They are, but think when you pull off your daily you're not hitting one monster, you're hitting practically hundreds of monsters. These are though wizard spotlight battles, since they will be able to deal full damage (though only on a single target).

I especially am proud of the Full Concealment within the swarm. This allows for you to place your BBEG in the middle of a swarm, and they can try to pick him off (if they can spot him) but with a -5 penalty to their attack.

This seems like amazingly few rules to adjust the scale of battle... So I'm sure there's got to be something that I'm missing.
#3
nightwalker450
Oct 08, 2008 13:00:26 reserved2
#4
ff6shadow
Oct 08, 2008 13:05:37 I think it has interesting potential, but I'll wait till you flesh it a bit more before deciding.
#5
the_jew
Oct 08, 2008 13:14:22 sounds interesting, I have some forms I have used for massive battles, one is of course the swarm strategy which is where you use the existing swarms to write up swarms of creatures such as goblins, and then make the troops on your side except for the pc's and hero's of war who are normally built and the other side will have their own groups of course.
In 3e I used to literally just build the army although the army was normally either NPC classes or low level character classes, except for commanding units.
I think it would be interesting to try this method using minion class monsters in the current incarnation of dungeons and dragons.
#6
nightwalker450
Oct 08, 2008 13:22:31 I'm not sure if minions should be converted using these rules to a swarm. They would mostly just be there to provide flavor as they are tore apart, since having the damage reduction doesn't protect them from any adventurer bringing down the whole swarm.

A swarm as I see it is already considered to be a horde of minion monsters, each point of damage is another minion that falls.

I'd also probably keep Elite's and Solo's as figureheads. Giving creatures with bonus hp 1/2 damage reduction just sounds like ridiculous trouble.
#7
matthewswift
Oct 08, 2008 18:16:13 Minion swarms have hp equal to half the number of minions...

what about formations? Would that count as "defensive fighting"?

This is a really useful idea. 4th edition actually seems to convert a little better than 3rd (the 4 defenses for mass tactics, "just add more enemies" mentality) except for one thing: forced shifts. That and I don't see a lone hero taking on a swarm of monsters/men unless they are signifigantly better. Perhaps a PC can only attack if he is part of a swarm of troops (then the troops gain his/her stats?) Cinematically, I'm all for Regdar killing 25+ goblins in 5 minutes but really...

1/2 damage just doesn't seem gimping enough for lone pcs compared to the single attack of swarms. I dunno if anyone would survive a minute round if they're surrounde by enemies, but with this it's potentially a regular occurance for a PC. perhaps a damage multiplier against lone targets?
#8
doomsought
Oct 08, 2008 18:29:36 1/4 damage.
if a figure head is INSIDE an enemy swarm, all its defenses are cut in half.
#9
nightwalker450
Oct 08, 2008 19:43:51 Part of the swarms being able to attack as bursts/blasts is to give them a leg up on lone fighters.

So their melee attacks, can be performed as a burst 1, or blast 1. This allows a swarm to handle multiple opponents easier.

If it chooses the burst 1, then it will get bonuses (this reflects a single swarm, or a lone player). If they perform blast then they don't receive any bonuses, but they can handle flanking easier.

Also alot of these require the thought that this is happening over the course of a minute, so you're dealing 1/2 damage against the swarm, and it took you a minute to do that. Not real important if time isn't an issue, but sometimes it will be. (Converting monsters to swarms is almost the equivilant of making them elites)

Forced movement works as well, as your entire unit being trained to push the opposing force. How about converting the minotaur into a swarm? It rushes the human forces with a goring charge knocking the the force into such disarry they are considered prone. Personally I like those pictures, and that will be the key of these battles more. Not the damage, but rather the effects that are placed on large units of troops. Your character is in a way inspiring the allied swarms as well. The group is invigorated as you shield bash an opposing lieutenant off of his mount, surging forward and pushing the entire unit back (Tide of Iron).
#10
GlimmTheGnome
Oct 08, 2008 19:57:14 Assuming that the PCs aren't commanding one side, I'd advise taking a different approach and not trying to represent the entire battle with mechanics. I think you'll likely get a better result using D&D's normal scale and using the clashing armies as a backdrop.

For example, let's say that the PCs are part of the force attacking a fortress. The PCs side is mostly composed of human soldiers while the opposing force is composed of skeletons. You could come up with a few encounters where the PCs are instrumental to the battle (defeating the monstrous brute guarding the front gate, breaching an enemy strongpoint, destroying a siege weapon, saving their commander from an ambush, etc) and then throw in a few easy encounters with skeletal minions and always have a few friendly soldier minions on the battlegrid.

I think that way you'll have smoother gameplay that allows the abilities of the PC's to shine while still giving them the sense of a large battle. If you try to represent the fight on a x10 scale, then the interesting powers of the characters become hard to deal with and I think you'll end up with a slow-moving and potentially dull fight as all movements and ranges will practically be reduced to 1 square.
#11
nightwalker450
Oct 08, 2008 20:04:50 movements aren't reduced. just ranges and areas. Since the time scale changes by x10 as well. I just don't want archers/ranged attacks going 2000 feet (40 squares at 50 ft), so they'll only be able to shoot 4 squares (longbow).

I plan on mixing standard encounters in here as well. This is a way to mix things up, and have the players thinking in a different form of tactics.
#12
doomsought
Oct 08, 2008 20:18:59 Yes, this method is meant to avoid the "backdrop method" for something that is a bit more cinematic, but still earns XP.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 nightwalker450 Oct 08, 2008 12:58:51	I'm plotting a larger scale assault, that I want the characters to take part in. There will be troops on both sides, potentially hundreds on either side. So for this encounter, I'm changing some things to allow for this. Give me your feedback... Scaling of Time and Space: First we scale things back to show this scope: One square is 50 feet One round is 1 minute Speeds stay the same, since both time and space scaled the same. All figures are effectively medium sized, and there is no reach. All ranges/blasts are divided by 10 (rounded down,minimum 1). All bursts are divided by 10 (rounded down). Mostly Swarms: Creatures are converted to swarms using the following conversions: Swarm Resistance (half damage from non area attacks) Speed -1 All melee attacks change to burst (or close blast) when burst +2 attack, +2 damage Having an allied swarm between you and the enemy does apply partial concealment that you can maintain stealth with The Few Figure Heads: Characters and other important figures, can join into an allied swarm, and gain the following benefits: Synching movement to swarm. Spend your move action to move with the swarm. If the swarm moves, you move with it. If the swarm is forced to move, and you are not, you may choose to move with the swarm. You gain Full Concealment, or Partial Concealment if the swarm is bloodied. Note this doesn't protect you from other swarms, since they make area attacks. Just makes it harder for someone to pick you off from the crowd You do not provoke Opportunity Attacks Any attack against the swarm uses the same attack (no new roll) against you. Attacks against the swarm (including area attacks) that damage you, deal reduced damage based on health of swarm: swarm > 3/4 health - 0 damage swarm > 1/2 health - 1/4 damage swarm > 1/4 health - 1/2 damage
#2 nightwalker450 Oct 08, 2008 12:59:21	Using this system, it will allow me to easily convert any monster into a swarm of monsters. Characters can choose whether to remain within the safety of a swarm, or they can choose to try their own luck. Allied swarms, you'll probably want to scale their damage down slightly (so as not to overshadow players since players will only be dealing 1/2 damage). I'd recommend choosing allies who have some nice forced movement affects. This could work without allied swarms as well, but if you take them out you'll want to choose lower level enemies. Since I'm relying on the defensive bonuses (and extra attacks) of the allies, to balance up the power increase on the enemies. Some might complain that with most everything being swarms powers will be significantly reduced. They are, but think when you pull off your daily you're not hitting one monster, you're hitting practically hundreds of monsters. These are though wizard spotlight battles, since they will be able to deal full damage (though only on a single target). I especially am proud of the Full Concealment within the swarm. This allows for you to place your BBEG in the middle of a swarm, and they can try to pick him off (if they can spot him) but with a -5 penalty to their attack. This seems like amazingly few rules to adjust the scale of battle... So I'm sure there's got to be something that I'm missing.
#3 nightwalker450 Oct 08, 2008 13:00:26	reserved2
#4 ff6shadow Oct 08, 2008 13:05:37	I think it has interesting potential, but I'll wait till you flesh it a bit more before deciding.
#5 the_jew Oct 08, 2008 13:14:22	sounds interesting, I have some forms I have used for massive battles, one is of course the swarm strategy which is where you use the existing swarms to write up swarms of creatures such as goblins, and then make the troops on your side except for the pc's and hero's of war who are normally built and the other side will have their own groups of course. In 3e I used to literally just build the army although the army was normally either NPC classes or low level character classes, except for commanding units. I think it would be interesting to try this method using minion class monsters in the current incarnation of dungeons and dragons.
#6 nightwalker450 Oct 08, 2008 13:22:31	I'm not sure if minions should be converted using these rules to a swarm. They would mostly just be there to provide flavor as they are tore apart, since having the damage reduction doesn't protect them from any adventurer bringing down the whole swarm. A swarm as I see it is already considered to be a horde of minion monsters, each point of damage is another minion that falls. I'd also probably keep Elite's and Solo's as figureheads. Giving creatures with bonus hp 1/2 damage reduction just sounds like ridiculous trouble.
#7 matthewswift Oct 08, 2008 18:16:13	Minion swarms have hp equal to half the number of minions... what about formations? Would that count as "defensive fighting"? This is a really useful idea. 4th edition actually seems to convert a little better than 3rd (the 4 defenses for mass tactics, "just add more enemies" mentality) except for one thing: forced shifts. That and I don't see a lone hero taking on a swarm of monsters/men unless they are signifigantly better. Perhaps a PC can only attack if he is part of a swarm of troops (then the troops gain his/her stats?) Cinematically, I'm all for Regdar killing 25+ goblins in 5 minutes but really... 1/2 damage just doesn't seem gimping enough for lone pcs compared to the single attack of swarms. I dunno if anyone would survive a minute round if they're surrounde by enemies, but with this it's potentially a regular occurance for a PC. perhaps a damage multiplier against lone targets?
#8 doomsought Oct 08, 2008 18:29:36	1/4 damage. if a figure head is INSIDE an enemy swarm, all its defenses are cut in half.
#9 nightwalker450 Oct 08, 2008 19:43:51	Part of the swarms being able to attack as bursts/blasts is to give them a leg up on lone fighters. So their melee attacks, can be performed as a burst 1, or blast 1. This allows a swarm to handle multiple opponents easier. If it chooses the burst 1, then it will get bonuses (this reflects a single swarm, or a lone player). If they perform blast then they don't receive any bonuses, but they can handle flanking easier. Also alot of these require the thought that this is happening over the course of a minute, so you're dealing 1/2 damage against the swarm, and it took you a minute to do that. Not real important if time isn't an issue, but sometimes it will be. (Converting monsters to swarms is almost the equivilant of making them elites) Forced movement works as well, as your entire unit being trained to push the opposing force. How about converting the minotaur into a swarm? It rushes the human forces with a goring charge knocking the the force into such disarry they are considered prone. Personally I like those pictures, and that will be the key of these battles more. Not the damage, but rather the effects that are placed on large units of troops. Your character is in a way inspiring the allied swarms as well. The group is invigorated as you shield bash an opposing lieutenant off of his mount, surging forward and pushing the entire unit back (Tide of Iron).
#10 GlimmTheGnome Oct 08, 2008 19:57:14	Assuming that the PCs aren't commanding one side, I'd advise taking a different approach and not trying to represent the entire battle with mechanics. I think you'll likely get a better result using D&D's normal scale and using the clashing armies as a backdrop. For example, let's say that the PCs are part of the force attacking a fortress. The PCs side is mostly composed of human soldiers while the opposing force is composed of skeletons. You could come up with a few encounters where the PCs are instrumental to the battle (defeating the monstrous brute guarding the front gate, breaching an enemy strongpoint, destroying a siege weapon, saving their commander from an ambush, etc) and then throw in a few easy encounters with skeletal minions and always have a few friendly soldier minions on the battlegrid. I think that way you'll have smoother gameplay that allows the abilities of the PC's to shine while still giving them the sense of a large battle. If you try to represent the fight on a x10 scale, then the interesting powers of the characters become hard to deal with and I think you'll end up with a slow-moving and potentially dull fight as all movements and ranges will practically be reduced to 1 square.
#11 nightwalker450 Oct 08, 2008 20:04:50	movements aren't reduced. just ranges and areas. Since the time scale changes by x10 as well. I just don't want archers/ranged attacks going 2000 feet (40 squares at 50 ft), so they'll only be able to shoot 4 squares (longbow). I plan on mixing standard encounters in here as well. This is a way to mix things up, and have the players thinking in a different form of tactics.
#12 doomsought Oct 08, 2008 20:18:59	Yes, this method is meant to avoid the "backdrop method" for something that is a bit more cinematic, but still earns XP.