Large Sized PC Races? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Large Sized PC Races?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
vebrandsson
Jan 15, 2009 20:58:07 I'm wondering if you can make a Large sized race that wasn't unbalanced and if so how would you all suggest balancing it?
#2
Einlanzer
Jan 15, 2009 21:18:34 I've thought about writing rules for large and tiny races. One thing to keep in mind though...how large are you wanting to make a race? Medium actually covers everything in the large medium range...
"large" really is for stuff that takes up more than 1 square.

If you were to do it, no reason to not keep it simple. Give them the ability to use large versions of weapons and give them a 2 reach. That's really all that's needed. They'll be tight in a lot of dungeons and it might create problems for the party. Just keep their racials minor so that they wouldn't be too imbalanced.
#3
darth_serenous
Jan 15, 2009 21:22:24 Well..my first idea would to inspire myself from existing large creatures. You could actually create half-trolls this way

I think of Half-Trolls like somekind of barbarian like race.

+2 Strength, +2 Constitution (bonus in the same defense is more balanced)
Low-light vision
Languages : Common, Troll
+2 Nature, +2 Perception
Large : You can use two-handed weapon at one hand. You also consider versatile weapon like off-hand.

etc...

Its around midnight for me so I can't think for the rest..but you have a picture. I think that you just do the opposite of the halfling for the size rule.
#4
tylara67
Jan 15, 2009 21:25:15 Just remember that using weapons larger than normal size makes certain weapons vastly more powerful (consider the Execution Axe for example: brutal 2 is a much more useful property on a 2d6 weapon than on a 1d12 weapon). If they can take the epic destiny that lets you wield weapons one size larger than you, it gets even more powerful.
#5
vebrandsson
Jan 15, 2009 21:35:14 Well p 220 of the PHB gives you the rules for creatures, weapons, and size. It boils down to this:

A creature cannot use a weapon desigined for a creature larger than it.

A creature can use a two handed weapon desigined for a creature one size smaller than it as a one handed weapon.

A creature can not use a one handed weapon desigined for a creature one size or more smaller than it

Weapons with the reach property add 1 to the creatures natural reach.

but the increase in damage, plus the fact that they could use a glave and gain reach with one hand (or if they were a two blade ranger they could use two glaves and get the reach advantage on both weapons). Plus according to these rules they could wield a great bow with one hand (and actually if you want to be a rules lawyer the two blade ranger style doesn't specify that it applies only to melee weapons so you could actually wield two greatbows). Given all this can a balanced race actually be done on the large size, even if it doesn't have extra reach?
#6
vebrandsson
Jan 15, 2009 21:37:41
If they can take the epic destiny that lets you wield weapons one size larger than you, it gets even more powerful.

Which epic destiny is that? I'm not familiar with that one.

Edit: Never mind, I found it.
#7
Einlanzer
Jan 15, 2009 21:57:37 yeah the brutal property kinda throws a wrench in the balance of oversize weapon usage, which is i'm sure why it's in the mm for minotaurs but removed in the full write up.
#8
darth_serenous
Jan 16, 2009 8:23:11 For every of these reasons, I suggest that your large size race don't have a racial power (like the dwarf)
#9
EmpactWB
Jan 16, 2009 12:44:00 TD pointed out an interesting problem with Large races when I tried making one. They can use Medium reach weapons 1-handed, so a Fighter with a glaive and a shield, with HBO, Polearm Gamble, Spear Push, and Tide of Iron, gets an opportunity attack every time an enemy moves adjacent, and can then push the creature 2 squares on a hit. There's some PP or something that knocks creatures prone when you push them at least 2 squares, so that would kill the enemy's ability to keep moving toward you. It essentially creates a character that is immune to melee combat.

Trying to balance that is way above my level of skill at game design.

RE: Brutal property and oversized: I'm actually pretty sure the problem was stacking oversized type properties. There's an ED in the Martial Power book that gives you the same thing. So you get treated as a Large creature with the oversized racial ability if you are a Medium creature with the oversized racial ability, which is just broken. Taking it away from the PC races in Heroic was probably deemed more balanced overall than removing the stacking in Epic.
#10
vebrandsson
Jan 16, 2009 13:22:34 Actually as written the epic destiny feature that lets you use larger weapons would NOT stack with oversized. And the race I am trying to make I want to be large because of the size of the creature. I have debated giving them an "undersized" property that makes them function as medium creatures in reguards to the weapons they can use. I think that may be the only way to make it work. I don't have a copy of AV handy to check the wording on brutal, so I don't honestly know exactly how a 2d6 weapon with that property would actually work, weather its min damage would be 4, or still 2 (if it had the brutal 2 property). As far as the polearm gamble and all combined. That whole trick only works untill you miss.
#11
EmpactWB
Jan 17, 2009 1:50:46
Actually as written the epic destiny feature that lets you use larger weapons would NOT stack with oversized.

"Godlike Stature (24th level): Your size doesn’t change, but your height and weight increase to 25 percent and 100 percent above the normal range for your race, respectively. You can wield weapons as if you were one size larger, and if you are normally Medium or larger, your melee reach increases by 1 square."
"Oversized: You can use weapons of your size or one size larger than you as if they were your size."
Sorry, you are correct. I thought it used the same wording.

Actually, nevermind. Godlike Stature is broken all on it's own. Wielding a Medium reach weapon like a Large creature does? That's one-handed: the same problem we just had. Never realized that before.

And the race I am trying to make I want to be large because of the size of the creature. I have debated giving them an "undersized" property that makes them function as medium creatures in reguards to the weapons they can use.

I've seen something similar before. It does seem to handle it nicely, yes.

I think that may be the only way to make it work. I don't have a copy of AV handy to check the wording on brutal, so I don't honestly know exactly how a 2d6 weapon with that property would actually work, weather its min damage would be 4, or still 2 (if it had the brutal 2 property).

Minimum damage is 6, because you reroll any [W] die result equal or lower than the brutal value. So any die that comes up 3 or more is kept.

As far as the polearm gamble and all combined. That whole trick only works untill you miss.

True enough, but basic optimization (not even absurd optimization like the Apocalypse Twins or the Dwarbizard with the -17 penalty to saves, but just basic optimization) is about making you hit more often. If it works 9 times out of 10, and that 10th time you just shift back a square... It's still broken.
#12
aluman
Jan 17, 2009 3:12:46 As far as the Excutioner's Axe goes, while it seems impressive, the DPR increase is actually less than a maul's with oversize.

(Excutioner's Axe goes from 3-12 or 7.5 to 6-12 or 9. A maul goes 2-12 or 7 to 2-16 or 9).

The only concern is the minimum output.
#13
Skanvak
Jan 17, 2009 4:52:42 It is impressive but using rule like oversized weapon or Godlike staure like rule is the best. If you make a vreature of size large it will need strength and constitution in range with other large creature which mean thing like around +6 to both. Good luck to make something balanced.
#14
Undrhil
Jan 17, 2009 14:32:41
I'm wondering if you can make a Large sized race that wasn't unbalanced and if so how would you all suggest balancing it?

Take a look at the Minotaur write-up in Dragon. Or are you saying it's unbalanced?
#15
aluman
Jan 17, 2009 15:27:42 Too bad the minotaur in Dragon is 'medium' sized not 'large' sized.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 vebrandsson Jan 15, 2009 20:58:07	I'm wondering if you can make a Large sized race that wasn't unbalanced and if so how would you all suggest balancing it?
#2 Einlanzer Jan 15, 2009 21:18:34	I've thought about writing rules for large and tiny races. One thing to keep in mind though...how large are you wanting to make a race? Medium actually covers everything in the large medium range... "large" really is for stuff that takes up more than 1 square. If you were to do it, no reason to not keep it simple. Give them the ability to use large versions of weapons and give them a 2 reach. That's really all that's needed. They'll be tight in a lot of dungeons and it might create problems for the party. Just keep their racials minor so that they wouldn't be too imbalanced.
#3 darth_serenous Jan 15, 2009 21:22:24	Well..my first idea would to inspire myself from existing large creatures. You could actually create half-trolls this way I think of Half-Trolls like somekind of barbarian like race. +2 Strength, +2 Constitution (bonus in the same defense is more balanced) Low-light vision Languages : Common, Troll +2 Nature, +2 Perception Large : You can use two-handed weapon at one hand. You also consider versatile weapon like off-hand. etc... Its around midnight for me so I can't think for the rest..but you have a picture. I think that you just do the opposite of the halfling for the size rule.
#4 tylara67 Jan 15, 2009 21:25:15	Just remember that using weapons larger than normal size makes certain weapons vastly more powerful (consider the Execution Axe for example: brutal 2 is a much more useful property on a 2d6 weapon than on a 1d12 weapon). If they can take the epic destiny that lets you wield weapons one size larger than you, it gets even more powerful.
#5 vebrandsson Jan 15, 2009 21:35:14	Well p 220 of the PHB gives you the rules for creatures, weapons, and size. It boils down to this: A creature cannot use a weapon desigined for a creature larger than it. A creature can use a two handed weapon desigined for a creature one size smaller than it as a one handed weapon. A creature can not use a one handed weapon desigined for a creature one size or more smaller than it Weapons with the reach property add 1 to the creatures natural reach. but the increase in damage, plus the fact that they could use a glave and gain reach with one hand (or if they were a two blade ranger they could use two glaves and get the reach advantage on both weapons). Plus according to these rules they could wield a great bow with one hand (and actually if you want to be a rules lawyer the two blade ranger style doesn't specify that it applies only to melee weapons so you could actually wield two greatbows). Given all this can a balanced race actually be done on the large size, even if it doesn't have extra reach?
#6 vebrandsson Jan 15, 2009 21:37:41	If they can take the epic destiny that lets you wield weapons one size larger than you, it gets even more powerful. Which epic destiny is that? I'm not familiar with that one. Edit: Never mind, I found it.
#7 Einlanzer Jan 15, 2009 21:57:37	yeah the brutal property kinda throws a wrench in the balance of oversize weapon usage, which is i'm sure why it's in the mm for minotaurs but removed in the full write up.
#8 darth_serenous Jan 16, 2009 8:23:11	For every of these reasons, I suggest that your large size race don't have a racial power (like the dwarf)
#9 EmpactWB Jan 16, 2009 12:44:00	TD pointed out an interesting problem with Large races when I tried making one. They can use Medium reach weapons 1-handed, so a Fighter with a glaive and a shield, with HBO, Polearm Gamble, Spear Push, and Tide of Iron, gets an opportunity attack every time an enemy moves adjacent, and can then push the creature 2 squares on a hit. There's some PP or something that knocks creatures prone when you push them at least 2 squares, so that would kill the enemy's ability to keep moving toward you. It essentially creates a character that is immune to melee combat. Trying to balance that is way above my level of skill at game design. RE: Brutal property and oversized: I'm actually pretty sure the problem was stacking oversized type properties. There's an ED in the Martial Power book that gives you the same thing. So you get treated as a Large creature with the oversized racial ability if you are a Medium creature with the oversized racial ability, which is just broken. Taking it away from the PC races in Heroic was probably deemed more balanced overall than removing the stacking in Epic.
#10 vebrandsson Jan 16, 2009 13:22:34	Actually as written the epic destiny feature that lets you use larger weapons would NOT stack with oversized. And the race I am trying to make I want to be large because of the size of the creature. I have debated giving them an "undersized" property that makes them function as medium creatures in reguards to the weapons they can use. I think that may be the only way to make it work. I don't have a copy of AV handy to check the wording on brutal, so I don't honestly know exactly how a 2d6 weapon with that property would actually work, weather its min damage would be 4, or still 2 (if it had the brutal 2 property). As far as the polearm gamble and all combined. That whole trick only works untill you miss.
#11 EmpactWB Jan 17, 2009 1:50:46	Actually as written the epic destiny feature that lets you use larger weapons would NOT stack with oversized. "Godlike Stature (24th level): Your size doesn’t change, but your height and weight increase to 25 percent and 100 percent above the normal range for your race, respectively. You can wield weapons as if you were one size larger, and if you are normally Medium or larger, your melee reach increases by 1 square." "Oversized: You can use weapons of your size or one size larger than you as if they were your size." Sorry, you are correct. I thought it used the same wording. Actually, nevermind. Godlike Stature is broken all on it's own. Wielding a Medium reach weapon like a Large creature does? That's one-handed: the same problem we just had. Never realized that before. And the race I am trying to make I want to be large because of the size of the creature. I have debated giving them an "undersized" property that makes them function as medium creatures in reguards to the weapons they can use. I've seen something similar before. It does seem to handle it nicely, yes. I think that may be the only way to make it work. I don't have a copy of AV handy to check the wording on brutal, so I don't honestly know exactly how a 2d6 weapon with that property would actually work, weather its min damage would be 4, or still 2 (if it had the brutal 2 property). Minimum damage is 6, because you reroll any [W] die result equal or lower than the brutal value. So any die that comes up 3 or more is kept. As far as the polearm gamble and all combined. That whole trick only works untill you miss. True enough, but basic optimization (not even absurd optimization like the Apocalypse Twins or the Dwarbizard with the -17 penalty to saves, but just basic optimization) is about making you hit more often. If it works 9 times out of 10, and that 10th time you just shift back a square... It's still broken.
#12 aluman Jan 17, 2009 3:12:46	As far as the Excutioner's Axe goes, while it seems impressive, the DPR increase is actually less than a maul's with oversize. (Excutioner's Axe goes from 3-12 or 7.5 to 6-12 or 9. A maul goes 2-12 or 7 to 2-16 or 9). The only concern is the minimum output.
#13 Skanvak Jan 17, 2009 4:52:42	It is impressive but using rule like oversized weapon or Godlike staure like rule is the best. If you make a vreature of size large it will need strength and constitution in range with other large creature which mean thing like around +6 to both. Good luck to make something balanced.
#14 Undrhil Jan 17, 2009 14:32:41	I'm wondering if you can make a Large sized race that wasn't unbalanced and if so how would you all suggest balancing it? Take a look at the Minotaur write-up in Dragon. Or are you saying it's unbalanced?
#15 aluman Jan 17, 2009 15:27:42	Too bad the minotaur in Dragon is 'medium' sized not 'large' sized.