EDIT: GAH! I forgot that WOTC uses HTML! I used '<' and it's sidekick as a {insert world name here} kind of thing, but they got deleted. So if anything seems strange and out-of-place, that's probably it.
INITIATE WALL OF TEXT.
To begin: I'm starting a fairly large and lengthy campaign with a group of about 4 or 5, and I was wondering if I could maybe get some critical input on my idea I've planted here. We're using DnD 4e.
To start off, there are no gods. Instead, I've replaced them with colossals -- basically, elementals in physical form. Now this isn't to say that the gods lost the war at the beginning of time -- they never existed in the first place. It's always been the colossals.
{colossals}
On colossals: Large. Very large. We're talking anywhere from 100 - 200 feet tall, and 80 - 100 feet wide, depending on the colossal. Weight is also very variable, dependent on a colossal (A 100ft tall, 80 ft wide rock colossal is going to weigh a lot more than a 100ft tall, 80 ft wide magic colossal). (Too large maybe?)
To be frank, they're 'replacements' for gods, but not in the traditional fashion. Colossals don't hate each other. They have emotions, but they recognize that the other colossals are essential to creating a world, so they tolerate them, even if it conflicts with their nature (Say, a fire colossal that protects the ever-burning Sea of Flames may not like a water colossal, but they don't actively go to war). They created {world name here} (Yeah...haven't really thought of that yet) in each of their own way, and exist to protect it and make sure that nothing goes out of balance. Colossals also aren't unique -- there isn't one singular earth colossal, rather, a collection of earth colossals, for example. The creatures of also 'worship' their colossals in a way. Rather than worship in a traditional god-like fashion, they merely 'appreciate' them. It doesn't provide any benefit to 'worship'/'appreciate' them, and it doesn't affect their alignment at all.
Examples of colossals: Earth (Rocks/mountains?), fire, sea/ocean/lake (All the same for the most part, except for size), ice, magic, forest, astral, desert/sand, air, ???
Colossals are also sentient. Obviously. But I meant in a way that PCs and NPCs can interact with them. They might be able to be manipulated by lies. They can't read minds at all, but they might have insight depending on which type of colossal they are. They might not have the wits of the creatures they created and protect. They also won't do intentional harm to any sentient being they created (Keyword being THEY), even if the sentient being was trying to harm them in the first place. For the most part, colossals aren't attacked because they're so revered, and citizens would rise up to protect the colossal if someone were to attempt to take it down. Colossals don't have any hesitation destroying another colossal that threatens their well-being.
Colossals also don't live forever. A fire colossal might live for days, maybe even hours, before it dissipates and is reborn into a new colossal. Earth colossals might live for centuries before being inanimate. Forest colossals might only live for 50 years at a time, etc. etc. (Tbh, I'll just make up these parts as I go along if the PCs ask about it). Astral, air and magic colossals might live mentally for millenia, but maybe their physical bodies can dissipate at will, or are completely non-existent in the first place (Haven't decided yet).
{/colossals}
{story}
To keep it as brief as possible, while the colossals are non-aligned naturally, the creatures of obviously aren't. While most of them rever colossals and wouldn't do a thing to harm them, as they're the creators and protectors, there's a wizard who's used the dim-wittedness of colossals to corrupt them. A corrupted colossal that acts under the command of the wizard. Now, the wizard just can't go around turning golems as (s)he pleases. It took her/him XX (50? 60? 70?) years to corrupt one colossal. But now that the wizard has converted one, it's starting to get easier to turn colossals. I'm starting to think that one colossal every 4 in-game weeks (Too long? Too short?), and maybe 2 - 3 in-game years before the wizard has enough colossals to crush any threat and control the world.
The quest of the PCs is to obviously stop the wizard. Way easier than it sounds, because colossals are extremely strong, and the public for the most part won't even accept the idea of a corrupted colossal -- it hasn't happened before, so why happen now? Colossals also aren't too keen to believe this as well, even with their dim-wittedness. On top of the fact that the wizard himself/herself is obviously extremely strong.
{/story}
INITIATE WALL OF TEXT.
To begin: I'm starting a fairly large and lengthy campaign with a group of about 4 or 5, and I was wondering if I could maybe get some critical input on my idea I've planted here. We're using DnD 4e.
To start off, there are no gods. Instead, I've replaced them with colossals -- basically, elementals in physical form. Now this isn't to say that the gods lost the war at the beginning of time -- they never existed in the first place. It's always been the colossals.
{colossals}
On colossals: Large. Very large. We're talking anywhere from 100 - 200 feet tall, and 80 - 100 feet wide, depending on the colossal. Weight is also very variable, dependent on a colossal (A 100ft tall, 80 ft wide rock colossal is going to weigh a lot more than a 100ft tall, 80 ft wide magic colossal). (Too large maybe?)
To be frank, they're 'replacements' for gods, but not in the traditional fashion. Colossals don't hate each other. They have emotions, but they recognize that the other colossals are essential to creating a world, so they tolerate them, even if it conflicts with their nature (Say, a fire colossal that protects the ever-burning Sea of Flames may not like a water colossal, but they don't actively go to war). They created {world name here} (Yeah...haven't really thought of that yet) in each of their own way, and exist to protect it and make sure that nothing goes out of balance. Colossals also aren't unique -- there isn't one singular earth colossal, rather, a collection of earth colossals, for example. The creatures of also 'worship' their colossals in a way. Rather than worship in a traditional god-like fashion, they merely 'appreciate' them. It doesn't provide any benefit to 'worship'/'appreciate' them, and it doesn't affect their alignment at all.
Examples of colossals: Earth (Rocks/mountains?), fire, sea/ocean/lake (All the same for the most part, except for size), ice, magic, forest, astral, desert/sand, air, ???
Colossals are also sentient. Obviously. But I meant in a way that PCs and NPCs can interact with them. They might be able to be manipulated by lies. They can't read minds at all, but they might have insight depending on which type of colossal they are. They might not have the wits of the creatures they created and protect. They also won't do intentional harm to any sentient being they created (Keyword being THEY), even if the sentient being was trying to harm them in the first place. For the most part, colossals aren't attacked because they're so revered, and citizens would rise up to protect the colossal if someone were to attempt to take it down. Colossals don't have any hesitation destroying another colossal that threatens their well-being.
Colossals also don't live forever. A fire colossal might live for days, maybe even hours, before it dissipates and is reborn into a new colossal. Earth colossals might live for centuries before being inanimate. Forest colossals might only live for 50 years at a time, etc. etc. (Tbh, I'll just make up these parts as I go along if the PCs ask about it). Astral, air and magic colossals might live mentally for millenia, but maybe their physical bodies can dissipate at will, or are completely non-existent in the first place (Haven't decided yet).
{/colossals}
{story}
To keep it as brief as possible, while the colossals are non-aligned naturally, the creatures of obviously aren't. While most of them rever colossals and wouldn't do a thing to harm them, as they're the creators and protectors, there's a wizard who's used the dim-wittedness of colossals to corrupt them. A corrupted colossal that acts under the command of the wizard. Now, the wizard just can't go around turning golems as (s)he pleases. It took her/him XX (50? 60? 70?) years to corrupt one colossal. But now that the wizard has converted one, it's starting to get easier to turn colossals. I'm starting to think that one colossal every 4 in-game weeks (Too long? Too short?), and maybe 2 - 3 in-game years before the wizard has enough colossals to crush any threat and control the world.
The quest of the PCs is to obviously stop the wizard. Way easier than it sounds, because colossals are extremely strong, and the public for the most part won't even accept the idea of a corrupted colossal -- it hasn't happened before, so why happen now? Colossals also aren't too keen to believe this as well, even with their dim-wittedness. On top of the fact that the wizard himself/herself is obviously extremely strong.
{/story}
The idea of corrupting the masters of the world to control it seems like a basic hook, but with the supposed dim witted nature these beings have, what's to stop them from simply being tricked into doing his dirty work without the need to affect their will at all? The idea of corrupting something should have serious ramifications on not only the nature of the creatures, but also the nature of what they control. If they're slow and simple being, one would think that their power is sorely misplaced. What if the Wizard is doing the right thing for the world and people don't even realize it?
To that end, what sort of allies does the Wizard have? If most people aren't so keen to buy into this, one would think that he wouldn't be able to gather allies to his cause outside of the Colossals, and they seem to powerful a threat for the PCs to deal with until late Paragon, early Epic. It makes little sense to have the campaign go on for half a year and then suddenly "evil-guy-corrupting-colossals-oh-no-save-them!" after all.
I like the sound of it, but there are finner points that need to be addressed before you lay it on the table for your players. It might also help you in the crafting of the world if you know what your players want to do with their characters. Then you can build the world to accomodate those decisions based around your original ideas as well. It immerses the players more, and makes your campaign world richer for it in their eyes.
Happy Gaming
I like the idea of the Colossals, but I must wonder what sort of ramifications it has on Divine players, and the impact the Elemental Chaos and the Primordials. Where do those aspects come into play? To that end, what sort of impact do their existance have on the Primal Spirits, who in the core settings played the Colossals role?
The idea of corrupting the masters of the world to control it seems like a basic hook, but with the supposed dim witted nature these beings have, what's to stop them from simply being tricked into doing his dirty work without the need to affect their will at all? The idea of corrupting something should have serious ramifications on not only the nature of the creatures, but also the nature of what they control. If they're slow and simple being, one would think that their power is sorely misplaced. What if the Wizard is doing the right thing for the world and people don't even realize it?
To that end, what sort of allies does the Wizard have? If most people aren't so keen to buy into this, one would think that he wouldn't be able to gather allies to his cause outside of the Colossals, and they seem to powerful a threat for the PCs to deal with until late Paragon, early Epic. It makes little sense to have the campaign go on for half a year and then suddenly "evil-guy-corrupting-colossals-oh-no-save-them!" after all.
I like the sound of it, but there are finner points that need to be addressed before you lay it on the table for your players. It might also help you in the crafting of the world if you know what your players want to do with their characters. Then you can build the world to accomodate those decisions based around your original ideas as well. It immerses the players more, and makes your campaign world richer for it in their eyes.
Happy Gaming
On ramifications/impacts: That's the part I'm most confused about. I can't really decide what to do with paladins/clerics/avengers. I want to keep them in, but I don't want them worshipping colossals (because, as said earlier, colossals have varying lifespans). Hmm...primordials. Maybe the primordials can take the place of gods and colossals are their physical manifestations or 'minions', per se. The people of the world worship the primordials. I don't know much about primordials, to be honest.
On dim-wittedness/wizard-corruptedness: Point taken on the dim-wittedness part. Possibly make the colossals quite intelligent and wise, but stubborn when it comes to believing that their kind is being threatened? I want to keep the idea of corruption or something along those lines, and a wizard seemed to fit somewhat snuggily, even if it is sort of cliché.
On allies: I figured that if the wizard can take over the mind of a colossal that he/she can easily take over the mind of the leader of a mercenary ring -- or maybe he/she can just buy them out with the substantial amount of gold he/she has from over the years. This might be a way for the PCs to fight back -- if they can find some way to sever the link between the wizard and the mercenary leader, the mercenaries would be willing to help when the epic battle comes around. Hell, even better: The wizard has developed a cult of followers because of his/her power. An entire city, the city he/she used to live in as the head of the magi guild maybe, or maybe a city where he/she sat as a counsular to the leader for years, whispering words that slowly ate away at the leader until he/she was too crazy to rule, putting the wizard in place, who promptly made a huge, city-wide cult of some type. Making the city his/her homebase. Send out cultists to spread the cult's influence.
But that would lead to conflicts with citizens not believing a wizard can corrupt a colossal. If a cultist comes up and tries to recruit them, telling them about the massive power of the wizard and how he/she can corrupt colossals...
Maybe instead of a wizard I can use a psionic? It would make more sense than a wizard in this campaign's case.
Blargh. So many choices.
On ramifications/impacts: That's the part I'm most confused about. I can't really decide what to do with paladins/clerics/avengers. I want to keep them in, but I don't want them worshipping colossals (because, as said earlier, colossals have varying lifespans). Hmm...primordials. Maybe the primordials can take the place of gods and colossals are their physical manifestations or 'minions', per se. The people of the world worship the primordials. I don't know much about primordials, to be honest.
The primordials are fickle beings with their own goals. They would only align with each other if they had a threat to face. They're also above epic level threats in their truest forms. In the core, many of them had their powers sealed or diminished in some way to make the appropriate enemies to fight as campaign ending boss monsters.
As for their worship, it could work, but what sort of influence would the Astral Sea have on the cosmos?. And if the colossals are simply the servants of the Primordials, what does this mean for Giants and Titans, who fill the same position in the standard cosmology? There is also still the issue of what role, if any, the primal power source plays on the colossals and their existance in place of, or even along side of, the Primal Spirits.
On dim-wittedness/wizard-corruptedness: Point taken on the dim-wittedness part. Possibly make the colossals quite intelligent and wise, but stubborn when it comes to believing that their kind is being threatened? I want to keep the idea of corruption or something along those lines, and a wizard seemed to fit somewhat snuggily, even if it is sort of cliché.
Stubborness fits better. If you're supposedly all powerful, it's hard to imagine some mortal yokel being able to control your actions after all.
On allies: I figured that if the wizard can take over the mind of a colossal that he/she can easily take over the mind of the leader of a mercenary ring -- or maybe he/she can just buy them out with the substantial amount of gold he/she has from over the years. This might be a way for the PCs to fight back -- if they can find some way to sever the link between the wizard and the mercenary leader, the mercenaries would be willing to help when the epic battle comes around. Hell, even better: The wizard has developed a cult of followers because of his/her power. An entire city, the city he/she used to live in as the head of the magi guild maybe, or maybe a city where he/she sat as a counsular to the leader for years, whispering words that slowly ate away at the leader until he/she was too crazy to rule, putting the wizard in place, who promptly made a huge, city-wide cult of some type. Making the city his/her homebase. Send out cultists to spread the cult's influence.
But that would lead to conflicts with citizens not believing a wizard can corrupt a colossal. If a cultist comes up and tries to recruit them, telling them about the massive power of the wizard and how he/she can corrupt colossals...
Maybe instead of a wizard I can use a psionic? It would make more sense than a wizard in this campaign's case.
Blargh. So many choices.
There's little difference mechanically between a Wizard and a Psion. Truth be told, you can have any sort of class/power source user fit the bill. The real question is what sort of power does someone who can control these beings have, and does it fit thematically with the character itself?
To find allies, first decide what you're gonna do for some of the power sources that might be in contention with the colossals dominance of the world. Perhaps there are gods, but most people don't worship them in favor of the colossals. This could give celestial beings such as Angels and even Devils a reason to align with the Wizard to topple their rule, replacing the colossals as masters of the world with themselves (would also make for interesting character development if Divine players follow the short number of gods who don't want to take the world by force, but earn it though actions for the people). If the Primordials are in charge, maybe Demons would offer their aid in an attept to wrest power away from the Primordials and claim the entirty of the world and Elemental Chaos for their own.
There are plenty of choices to make it work, but the real problem is selling it in early stages of game play. The idea that these creatures can be corrupted isn't important in the early stages of game play, but findng means to corrupt them in the first place, possibly in an expediant manner as you described originally is. Elder Colossals, for example, could be aware that one of their younger companions has been corrupted by this person, but flat out saying it would cause to much of a panic, so they guide the PCs from the shadows, perhaps in lesser forms, to fight against those that would seek out new ways to achieve the same result, only to reveal themselves later in the campaign after the BBEG finds the secret he's been looking for to begin corrupting all of them regardless of age or power. A corrupt city does fit the bill, and could make for a great setting late paragon when they finally figure out what is going on with their quests up to this point, but earlier threats are just as important in setting the stage. Mercenaries work nicely, since they don't ask questions and would do anything for a buck, but they are also a poor choice for post level 5 games. The enemies the characters face must be devoted to a cause as they grow in power, or they will simply be willing to fight until they are losing, and then abandon the mission all together. Not a very climactic sort of engagement for the players. Maybe the Wizard isn't corrupting them to control them, but corrupting them to drain them of their power. Offering god like abilities to loyal subjects is a good way to convince people to go along with the plan after all.
Keep at it. There are plenty of ways to make it work. Just do what seems best for you and your players and you should be just fine
The primordials are fickle beings with their own goals. They would only align with each other if they had a threat to face. They're also above epic level threats in their truest forms. In the core, many of them had their powers sealed or diminished in some way to make the appropriate enemies to fight as campaign ending boss monsters.
As for their worship, it could work, but what sort of influence would the Astral Sea have on the cosmos?. And if the colossals are simply the servants of the Primordials, what does this mean for Giants and Titans, who fill the same position in the standard cosmology? There is also still the issue of what role, if any, the primal power source plays on the colossals and their existance in place of, or even along side of, the Primal Spirits.
Hmm...
There's little difference mechanically between a Wizard and a Psion. Truth be told, you can have any sort of class/power source user fit the bill. The real question is what sort of power does someone who can control these beings have, and does it fit thematically with the character itself?
To find allies, first decide what you're gonna do for some of the power sources that might be in contention with the colossals dominance of the world. Perhaps there are gods, but most people don't worship them in favor of the colossals. This could give celestial beings such as Angels and even Devils a reason to align with the Wizard to topple their rule, replacing the colossals as masters of the world with themselves (would also make for interesting character development if Divine players follow the short number of gods who don't want to take the world by force, but earn it though actions for the people). If the Primordials are in charge, maybe Demons would offer their aid in an attept to wrest power away from the Primordials and claim the entirty of the world and Elemental Chaos for their own.
There are plenty of choices to make it work, but the real problem is selling it in early stages of game play. The idea that these creatures can be corrupted isn't important in the early stages of game play, but findng means to corrupt them in the first place, possibly in an expediant manner as you described originally is. Elder Colossals, for example, could be aware that one of their younger companions has been corrupted by this person, but flat out saying it would cause to much of a panic, so they guide the PCs from the shadows, perhaps in lesser forms, to fight against those that would seek out new ways to achieve the same result, only to reveal themselves later in the campaign after the BBEG finds the secret he's been looking for to begin corrupting all of them regardless of age or power. A corrupt city does fit the bill, and could make for a great setting late paragon when they finally figure out what is going on with their quests up to this point, but earlier threats are just as important in setting the stage. Mercenaries work nicely, since they don't ask questions and would do anything for a buck, but they are also a poor choice for post level 5 games. The enemies the characters face must be devoted to a cause as they grow in power, or they will simply be willing to fight until they are losing, and then abandon the mission all together. Not a very climactic sort of engagement for the players. Maybe the Wizard isn't corrupting them to control them, but corrupting them to drain them of their power. Offering god like abilities to loyal subjects is a good way to convince people to go along with the plan after all.
Keep at it. There are plenty of ways to make it work. Just do what seems best for you and your players and you should be just fine
I love the ideas that you came up with here -- I would give you a medal if possible.
What you came up with as far as the gods go, that's probably what I'm going to implement into the game.
At first, I wanted to make it to where the PCs already knew about the corruption. Maybe they witnessed it, or they noticed that a colossal was acting (or looked) completely different from how they originally acted (/looked). Your idea is better, hah (Elder colossal leading the player on, such as an air/astral/magic colossal who can dissipate at will or form into whatever they wanted). How about there's one colossal for air/astral/magic in general? While the other colossals are somewhat numerous, the air/astral/magic colossals are the only ones of their kind. Named colossals, even.
Damn, now that I think about allies and monsters and such, I realize just how bare-boned my story is. I don't even have anything to fill up where the players are going to go, what they're going to do to even attempt to reach the wizard.
I should probably draw out a world map and come up with some different things to challenge the PCs. Maybe a way to cure/suspend the corruption? Ahhhhh, hell. I'll be back with a few ideas later.
Perhaps the Dawn War ended in detente rather than victory for one side or the other. The colossals represent the power of change that the primordials infused into the world and they DO transform it over time, just not in the catastrophic fashion that the primordials themselves would.
The other elements of the cosmology would largely remain in place - other than that the elemental chaos would have some frighteningly powerful overlords in place if the PCs paid a visit. OTOH, perhaps the primordials are more concerned with the 'taint' of the abyss that's slowly spreading across their realm. Claiming back the world has become a low priority for them compared to safeguarding their own realm.
Which doesn't mean that they're friendly or safe to deal with - they just aren't focused on the end of the mortal world right now.