Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Kalaman666 Oct 23, 2010 10:47:14	...to the standard daily power system.  Currnely my players save them up waiting for just the right time to use them that they never win up using them. I don't just want to make the encounters harder. Thanks!
#2 Novacat Oct 23, 2010 11:13:41	With any house rule, you must first know what you want to accomplish. I presume you want to entice your players to use daily powers more often. The most immediate way to do that is to remove some of the cost of using a daily power. Providing a means for them to recharge daily powers under certain conditions will give them an incentive to use them up, knowing that they can get them back later. This will result in a more powerful party, and you should increase the difficulty of encounters slightly to account for it. The increase in difficulty will also help to encourage daily use.
#3 Cohen95 Oct 23, 2010 11:41:07	I know in the other thread I suggested limiting Encounter Powers with a recharge mechanic. Perhaps the recharge mechanic could also be useful in this case. When the PCs reach a Milestone, allow them to make a recharge roll on one of their expended Daily powers. I'd only allow one roll per milestone, not one per power used. If they use two dailies, they can roll to recharge one at the one milestone, and the other at the other milestone, but only one recharge roll per milestone. Set the "difficulty" of the d6 recharge roll based on how difficult you want it to be to recharge their powers. A difficulty below 5 is going to add a lot of potency to the PCs, though, so you will have to make the encounters harder, to compensate for the PC power-creep. If you set the difficulty to 6, though, they only have about a 16-17% chance to recharge, so they may not be willing to risk using the power and not being able to get it back. You could, alternatively, just allow them to spend their Milestone AP in order to automatically recharge a daily power. Add the caveat that no power can be recharged more than once in this way. This will still encourage them to use Daily powers a little more often, and seeing how useful those powers can be outside of major encounters may encourage them to use them more often, and risk just not having them. Obviously either way you do it, only allow them to recharge during a short rest. Also, what level are the PCs? If they're below level 9, the problem itself may go away once they have more than a couple of dailies to mess with. Once they have three daily attack powers, they may decide that they can afford to use one earlier in the day, and still know they have two to drop on a big bad.
#4 mplindustries Oct 23, 2010 12:02:40	...to the standard daily power system.  Currnely my players save them up waiting for just the right time to use them that they never win up using them. I don't just want to make the encounters harder. Thanks! Check out the link in my signature about switching to encounter based resources.  The gist of it is that I have Daily powers regenerate every 3 encounters, rather than after an Extended Rest, and I limit Daily powers to only one per fight.  That way, they can spend one Daily, and only one daily, per fight without fear.
#5 Cohen95 Oct 23, 2010 12:08:44	...to the standard daily power system.  Currnely my players save them up waiting for just the right time to use them that they never win up using them. I don't just want to make the encounters harder. Thanks! Check out the link in my signature about switching to encounter based resources.  The gist of it is that I have Daily powers regenerate every 3 encounters, rather than after an Extended Rest, and I limit Daily powers to only one per fight.  That way, they can spend one Daily, and only one daily, per fight without fear. Looking at your thread, there, I see one pretty big flaw. It doesn't factor in lower level characters, basically at all. Level 1-4 characters, who only have one daily attack power, aren't going to use it until they get to the big bad. They're going to be afraid that the next fight is the big bad, and they'll be afraid to use it. Even at level 15, halfway through the game, they're stuck using one daily per encounter, and unless they go an encounter with no daily, they'll have to use the same dailies in the same order. They don't get to take best advantage of your system until they're practically in Epic, which isn't really that useful when the problem is he wants his PCs to use their dailies. Limiting the ability to use them isn't going to make them use the powers more often.
#6 ahab_ Oct 23, 2010 12:56:15	...to the standard daily power system.  Currnely my players save them up waiting for just the right time to use them that they never win up using them. I don't just want to make the encounters harder. Thanks! Kalaman, sorry the other post in the DM forums got away from you.  You were clearly listening to the other posters; they were upset you disagreed with their assessement and weren't doing what they told you to do. Ultimately, this issue is completely a player mindset issue, I think.  Whatever change you make, your players will continue to think, "Oh, I may need this for the boss fight, better save it."  If there's any chance they may 'need it later,' they won't use it.  A daily power is not a waste if used on a non-boss, which is a fact your players seem to be missing. As to a suggestion to fix the problem, how about this.  What about introducing a potion they can drink that recharges a daily of their choice?  It has to be a daily they've spent in an earlier encounter, so that way they can't use a daily in an encounter, drink the potion, and use the same power again.  This will give them incentive to use dailies early, and if they don't fight a BBEG that day, it's no loss.  If they do come up against a boss-type dude, they drink the potion, and BAM daily is back.
#7 mplindustries Oct 23, 2010 13:26:26	Looking at your thread, there, I see one pretty big flaw. It doesn't factor in lower level characters, basically at all. Level 1-4 characters, who only have one daily attack power, aren't going to use it until they get to the big bad. I ran it this way from level 3 on, and everyone preferred it.  They're level 10 now, and they get 1 Daily per encounter, so they're definitely happy. They're going to be afraid that the next fight is the big bad, and they'll be afraid to use it.  Even at level 15, halfway through the game, they're stuck using one daily per encounter, and unless they go an encounter with no daily, they'll have to use the same dailies in the same order. They don't get to take best advantage of your system until they're practically in Epic, which isn't really that useful when the problem is he wants his PCs to use their dailies. Limiting the ability to use them isn't going to make them use the powers more often. As I said, the players are at level 10 now, and they're thrilled that they can use a Daily each fight without worry.  If you'll remember, an extended rest counts as another fight, so after one day, they actually end up with the choice of two dailies for the first two fights at least.  Honestly, though, since I just about never have more than 3 fights per day, it's irrelevant. Anyway, if you think you can tweak it, I'm happy to hear it, but I absolutely don't want them using more than one Daily per fight.
#8 alitain Oct 23, 2010 19:05:06	...to the standard daily power system.  Currnely my players save them up waiting for just the right time to use them that they never win up using them. I don't just want to make the encounters harder. Thanks! Well when my group first started with 4th we worried about using Dailies as well.  And I still do sometimes.  But honestly there's no reason to change the game just because of that.  If your players don't want to use their dailies that's their choice, that's the point.  They need to make those decisions.  If you're throwing them into multiple encounters before getting an extended rest the players need to figure out whether they want to waste their dailies right away, or save them. If your players are new to the system it happens, they should get use to it and loosen up.  If they aren't new and that's how they all play then fine.  If they don't want to use them then they can just stick with encounters and at wills.  I've played characters just fine where I didn't use my dailies often and it went fine enough while others I exhaust all my powers all the time(pacifist cleric...love it!). But in the end it's my belief to let the players use them or not.  They'll probably figure out that the encounters will go easier if they use them more often, or not no big just continue making encounters as you have been.
#9 aluman Oct 23, 2010 20:54:41	An easy way to make players more willing to use dailies to allow them the option of spending an action point to recharge a daily power.
#10 Cohen95 Oct 23, 2010 23:37:02	You could, alternatively, just point out that what they're doing boils down to metagaming, and that if they continue to do it without some sort of in character justification, you're going to start either making those attacks miss (by giving your baddies a bonus vs Daily attacks), or just penalize XP when they do it.
#11 Kalaman666 Oct 23, 2010 23:46:16	Cohen95 - Thank you for the suggestion of this forum.  I am getting much better feedback.  I apparently did have the wrong forum before. I do like the idea of dailies with the possibility of recharging  at mile stones randomly or with the action points.  I am not really a huge fan of action points anyway. My 1st game made it to 11th level before the defender moved away and my current game they are almost 2nd level.  So my total number of fights that I have actually used has not been many. Mplind - That is another option I will have to read that link more when I have time.  Thanks! Ahab_ - Yeah I was a little upset about that thread but I seem to be getting better answers here.  It just goes to show when you pick the right forum it makes a difference =)  However you did hit the nail on the head. Ultimately, this issue is completely a player mindset issue, I think.  Whatever change you make, your players will continue to think, "Oh, I may need this for the boss fight, better save it."  If there's any chance they may 'need it later,' they won't use it.  A daily power is not a waste if used on a non-boss, which is a fact your players seem to be missing.  This is exactly the problem.  I want them to realize that there may be better times to use them instead of sitting on them.  Hence the desire to encourage the players to use them at more appropriate times.  I like the idea of the ability to recharge them but maybe not with a potion.  Maybe just because they are Heroes.  I will think on that more. Alitain - My players are new to the system.  In my current Monday game of 5 players only 2 of them were involved in my previous game that made it to 11th level.  The others are all experienced players just not familiar with 4.0. Thanks for the input guys I do appreciate it.  I would like your feedback on my current idea. Instead of 2 at wills, 1 encounter and 1 daily PC's get 2 at wills, and either 1 encounter that they can use twice or 2 different encounters that they can use once each.
#12 Cohen95 Oct 24, 2010 8:44:26	...my current game they are almost 2nd level. This is why they're not using their dailies. Just roll with it. Don't change anything yet. Let them save their dailies, and potentially waste them. When they get more dailies, they'll start using them more often. They only have one daily attack power, so they're saving it. If you want them to use it, give them encounters that tempt them to use it. I know this is basically the same advice you were getting in the other thread, but I think it's too soon to make a drastic change in the game mechanic.
#13 alitain Oct 24, 2010 10:37:04	Yeah if they're not even quite 2nd level that's entirely different, I agree with Cohen, there's no reason to jump the gun and start changing the fundamental set up of the game.  I know I'm repeating myself here but yeah, go with the game as is, there's nothing to be concerned about of course with only 1 daily they're going to conserve it, most players do at that level because you want to use it against the big bad boss battle. So then maybe look at your encounters, are all your battles set as if they're boss battles?  That may be a problem for the group because they can't get a clear idea of what battle they should wait to use it on.  Or the other side, are none of your battles really boss battles, just a few regular enemies again and again?  Because if that's the case the group is again confused and unsure because they're waiting for a definite sign of  a boss battle to dish out the dailies.  Just a suggestion.
#14 Kalaman666 Oct 24, 2010 10:50:38	Yes but I had this problem with the game that went to 11th level also.
#15 ahab_ Oct 24, 2010 12:21:47	To your suggestion Kalaman, I think I would like the 2 at-wills, and 2 different encounter powers better.  That keeps variety in the power system, and it's a bit closer to the intended model. When I was level 2 with my ranger, my daily and encounter powers were Split the Tree and Two Fanged Strike.  They were a little different because the first had to be used with 2 different enemies (so it was worthless on solo fights), while the second I almost exclusively used on a single enemy (for the bonus damage).  I liked the variety because I could let my character go into different modes of fighting (one for multiple enemies, and one to focus damage on).  If you let your players have one encounter power they can use twice, I think you would pigeonhole them into doing the same thing repeatedly in combat. One thing to think about with the various recharge options that have been presented is it keeps an option on the table for your players.  Daily powers are inherently more dangerous than encounter powers (like Split the Tree gives me two rolls and I'd use the best...Two Fanged Strike did not).  A recharge entices your players into using them, instead of abandoning the concept.  A later power for my ranger is Close Quarters Shot.  Man, I love unleashing that power, because I drop 5d8 (with quarry) in a single blow.  If I had an encounter instead of that daily, it'd be like letting air out of balloon for me. Also, I wouldn't discount the suggestions of just waiting either.  With one daily, hoarding is going to happen with any group.  Only two of your players are holdovers from your previous campaign.  Perhaps the others won't have the same mentaility when they get another daily.  But that's going to be a judgement call from you about your players.  You know 'em, while the rest of us are just speculating.
#16 Krusk Oct 24, 2010 23:57:12	(I wouldn't include utility powers that happen to be dailies in this) I would do something like this. Number your daily powers 1-X. roll a dX at the end of every encounter. You regain the use of the indicated power. To me that encourages daily power use. People don't want to "Waste" their reroll, and hit something unspent, plus they are guaranteed to have at least one daily left at the boss fight no matter how many fights away it is. I'd probably also throw in "You have to use a daily power in the encounter to be allowed to roll". Heck maybe even "After you use a daily power, you roll the die. If it recharges a power, that power recharges at the end of the fight." Letting them potentially recharge multiple daily powers if they spend a few in a fight. Encouraging people to "power swap". "Oh man, tripping strike isn't worth it against these dwarven enemies, I will throw it out now and hope Being tall rocks recharges." Obviously you need to watch out at higher levels if people start getting some of the daily power recovery methods. Also pretty obvious, but at low levels they will always have a daily power every fight. (1d1 is guaranteed to roll a 1). I wouldn't sweat that.
#17 Kalaman666 Oct 25, 2010 9:43:53	Some excellent ideas.  Thanks for the input folks!  It is much apprecaited.