I'm working on a puzzle and need to make sure my clues actually point to the correct answer. I thought I'd post it here for a good stress test. To actually keep it a challenge I'll wait a couple of days before posting the answer. I'm shooting for fun and challenging, not impossible. Input and suggestions are more than welcome. For those familiar with it, this is a modified version of the "Einstein Riddle" you can find online. I basically just substituted different items in. With no further ado, here it is...
In the ancient land of Llorwyen there were five citadels, which served as defense for the kingdom, stretching from west to east (left to right), each flying a different standard. Each citadel was ruled by a champion of a particular type.
These five rulers each favored a different beverage, a different animal on their standards, and a different priceless gem socketed in their scepters of stewardship.
Which ruler’s standard contained a Dragon? Their gem is the key to unlocking the Pyramid.
1. The Rogue lived in Broadstone Keep.
2. The Cleric sports a Gargoyle on his banner.
3. The Warrior’s favorite drink is Honeymead.
4. The fortress Aramar was located next to and to the left of Citadel Eversong.
5. The ruler of Aramar drinks Ale.
6. The ruler with the Releansce Diamond sports a Unicorn on their Banner.
7. The ruler of the fortress of Dellest possesses Zohren’s Sapphire.
8. The ruler of the central fortress drinks Wine.
9. The Bard ruled from the first (left most) fortress.
10. The ruler with Sparkling Emerald of Lohm lived next to the ruler who had a Treant on their banner.
11. The ruler with the Gryphon on their flag lives next to the possessor of Zohren’s Sapphire.
12. The ruler possessing the Alezaie’s Topaz drinks Cider.
13. The Wizard possesses the The Trahl Ruby.
14. The Bard ruled from the fortress adjacent to the citadel Cindrance.
15. The possessor of Sparkling Emerald of Lohm lives next to the champion who drinks Water.
A brief history behind the puzzle. My group has just finished H2 and defeated Paldemar. In his various papers they find a bunch of documents that cannot be deciphered. (basically took some old text documents I had lying around and changed the font to Espruar then printed them out) Once they take the paperwork to a higher level wizard/seer type (standard Read Magic not penetrating Paldemar's Vecna infused encryption) they decode key passages and determine that by answering the puzzle they'll decode how to enter a prison of great power (a heavily modified Pyramid of Shadows) whose main occupant (Kavrakos) has the key to developing WMDs not seen since the war between Bael Turath and Arkhosia. Paldemar and others are seeking these weapons for their own power. Enter adventures who need to kill Kavrakos to prevent this knowledge from being obtained.
Anyway, the answer to the puzzle points them to one of five ancient citadels which holds a magic gem that creates the gateway to the prison, yada yada yada. (along their way to the citadel I plan to throw some assassins and the Ashenport adventure into the mix). That's it in a nutshell, let me know if you'd like some more of the details. Like I said though, the puzzle is my main concern right now. Thanks for all the input and help. I (and my players) will appreciate it!
It doesn't look solvable at all, from where I'm sitting... not enough clues.
Maybe if I try to brute force it, I could figure out an answer, but that doesn't sound like any fun at all
Also, hopefully I have these in the right order, but here's a rough way to go through the clues, let me know if it makes any difference.
9, 14, 8, 4+5, 1 (this leaves 1 citadel and one location left for it to fit into),
7, 11. - At this stage you should know 2 classes, 5 citadels, 2 drinks, 1 gem, 1 creature on standard.
This next chunk is where the brunt logic push comes, start with clue 12 and integrate what you know from the chart already. (i.e. Bard and Rogue are excluded) Combine that with clues 13 and 3. That leaves only one class left. Next look at clue 2. This gives four pieces of information on the cleric and that fits in only one location on the grid.
Revisit clue 3 and 13, filling in the chart. Then clue 15, 6 (again another process of elimination) and finally clue 10. At this point there should only be one creature missing in the chart.
Does this help? *hopeful look*
It did take a couple of 'guesses', basically saying 'well, I don't know where to go from here so I'll just say that the Wizard lives in Aramar and see how that works out'.
(1) Solving it requires knowing HOW to solve these kind of puzzles; if players haven't seen the grid layout for solving them it's just going to be frustrating. Possibly introduce them to the idea with a 3x3 version first?
(2) How do you see this playing out at the game table? The puzzle is solveable by one person in about 20 minutes if they know what they're doing or up to an hour if they don't. Are you planning to just turn over the puzzle and then twiddle your thumbs for 20 to 60 minutes? How are a group of people going to meaningfully contribute to what is, essentially, a one person puzzle? Great puzzles (and this is a pretty good one) aren't necessarily great gameplay.
(3) Clue 14 should read, "The bard ruled from a fortress which is adjacent to Cindrance"; otherwise it sounds like he rules from Cindrance but has his actual residence just next to it it.
Also it makes it easier to draw up the grid if you tell them what the names of the drinks, rulers, keeps and gems are in advance.
Hope that helps.
All in all, I love puzzles. This was a puzzle. Therefore, I loved this puzzle.
That having being said, it felt nice figuring it out and all, but I think your players are going to be more frustrated than gratified. Especially in a group dynamic. I mean, I figured it out in about a half hour and I've never done one of these before, but in a group of people, who always seem to have those pesky little opinions, I think you can expect to at least double the time it took me, if one or two of them have experience with this sort of thing; probably longer if none of them do. If it was just one individual person trying to solve the puzzle, it wouldn't be nearly as long, but puzzle solving something like this is time-consuming.
This isn't necessarily difficult to do, but it is a tedious and I think that your players probably aren't going to want to stop the game for the hour it's going to take them to solve it as a group (because, in my experience, I wouldn't expect a group of people to solve a riddle of this complexity in any time less than an hour, once you factor in all of the talking and conjecture they're going to be throwing around the room).
It was a fun puzzle though.
P.S. -- As I sit here reading some of the comments that have come in before I post this, I would just like to say that I personally disagree with GregT_314.
I think that solving this doesn't require a knowledge of how it works, but I bet I wouldn't argue that it helps. Also, I think the wording of number fourteen should stay as it is, and not be changed: I understood the meaning perfectly.
Though I do strongly agree about the time-consumption of something such as this. I would almost suggest not using this puzzle, because, now that I look at it, does it really fit into the context of the game? Your players have access to semi-decoded documents, but have this riddle? I think it would almost make more sense for something else (e.g. the decoded documents are incomplete translations of some inscribed stones, forcing the PCs to search out a set of said inscribed stones that tell them where to go next, etc.).
Anyways. I digress.
Cool puzzle.
It's solveable, and fun as far as puzzles go. Three problems:
(1) Solving it requires knowing HOW to solve these kind of puzzles; if players haven't seen the grid layout for solving them it's just going to be frustrating. Possibly introduce them to the idea with a 3x3 version first?
Luckily, a couple of my players have engineering backgrounds so they eat this stuff up. That said, I may just present them with a 5x5 grid on our whiteboard or better yet, the Seer may give some indication that this is how to lay out the puzzle. (our gaming group rotates DMs and we each try to raise the 'puzzle/riddle' bar each campaign)
(2) How do you see this playing out at the game table? The puzzle is solveable by one person in about 20 minutes if they know what they're doing or up to an hour if they don't. Are you planning to just turn over the puzzle and then twiddle your thumbs for 20 to 60 minutes? How are a group of people going to meaningfully contribute to what is, essentially, a one person puzzle? Great puzzles (and this is a pretty good one) aren't necessarily great gameplay.
Very good point here. The players will each have a couple pages of Paldemar's encrypted writings. When they are decyphered, they'll each have 3 clues in their possession. Ideally they'll then take turns presenting their clues which will be collated and then the puzzle attempted. I'm hoping that keeps the entire group involved instead of just one person doing all the work. Now that said, my initial plan was to lean back and suppress a grin while watching them figure it out, ready to provide assistance (at an XP penalty for the puzzle). Thinking on it, I'll take a more active role RPing the Seer who is there to assist them, mainly to make sure everyone gets a chance to share in the puzzle.
(3) Clue 14 should read, "The bard ruled from a fortress which is adjacent to Cindrance"; otherwise it sounds like he rules from Cindrance but has his actual residence just next to it it.
Noted and the clue has been edited to reflect the change. Thanks!
Also it makes it easier to draw up the grid if you tell them what the names of the drinks, rulers, keeps and gems are in advance.
Hope that helps.
I actually made the clue statements cloudy with 'flavor' text on purpose, partly for RP reasons, partly as part of the puzzle, cutting the chafe from the core as it were. One of my hints if the players need it is to provide a list of all the items with the flavor stripped off.
Thanks for the great input. Very good point on good puzzles not always equaling good gameplay. I'll have to give that some more thought.
Though I do strongly agree about the time-consumption of something such as this. I would almost suggest not using this puzzle, because, now that I look at it, does it really fit into the context of the game? Your players have access to semi-decoded documents, but have this riddle? I think it would almost make more sense for something else (e.g. the decoded documents are incomplete translations of some inscribed stones, forcing the PCs to search out a set of said inscribed stones that tell them where to go next, etc.).
As far as the context, while planning his rise to power, Paldemar reads about Kavrakos and his WMD he had created. Thinking "I gotta get me some of those!" he learns that Kavrakos was actually imprisoned rather than killed as a cruel punishment. The puzzle will be presented as a sort of prophecy or riddle (figuring this out still). Paldemar, now armed with the question, conducts years of research to collect all of these clues from different tomes and divinations. Right before he gets a chance to collate all of his hard earned information, the unruly party comes in and takes him down. In essence, Paldemar did all the legwork collecting the clues and the PC's are reaping the rewards, assuming they can put it together.
*takes a deep breath after typing all that* Naturally I have to convert what I just said above into an RP section where the characters can learn all of that information, giving them the context of the puzzle.
One of the reasons I came up with this puzzle is that the players have been going through some very heavy all combat sessions so I wanted a little change of pace. Kind of a story interlude session with more plot and just a splash of combat. Point well taken though, you don't want to slow the game down to such a crawl that people start snoring.
As far as the context, while planning his rise to power, Paldemar reads about Kavrakos and his WMD he had created. Thinking "I gotta get me some of those!" he learns that Kavrakos was actually imprisoned rather than killed as a cruel punishment. The puzzle will be presented as a sort of prophecy or riddle (figuring this out still). Paldemar, now armed with the question, conducts years of research to collect all of these clues from different tomes and divinations. Right before he gets a chance to collate all of his hard earned information, the unruly party comes in and takes him down. In essence, Paldemar did all the legwork collecting the clues and the PC's are reaping the rewards, assuming they can put it together.
*takes a deep breath after typing all that* Naturally I have to convert what I just said above into an RP section where the characters can learn all of that information, giving them the context of the puzzle.
One of the reasons I came up with this puzzle is that the players have been going through some very heavy all combat sessions so I wanted a little change of pace. Kind of a story interlude session with more plot and just a splash of combat. Point well taken though, you don't want to slow the game down to such a crawl that people start snoring.
I've found in my 2-3 hour session with my nephews (they play a little slower than adults might) that a session of RP/Story with just a single fight in it usually runs 1-2 hours for the RP/Story and 1 hour for the fight. I really need to speed up combat without crippling monsters by taking away hp.
I like it, though this is going to be very, very time consuming, and chances are, not all the players are going to enjoy it, as the more logically-inclined ones take the lead and solve it, while those not-so-inclined twiddle their thumbs for at LEAST half an hour.
The puzzle in and of itself is fun. I'm not sure I would use it in a D&D game though because it's certainly a tad complex and additionally, these types of puzzles tend to be ones that the players work on individually rather than as a group. That being said, if your group likes these types of puzzles, then go for it. If the keeps are actual places in your campaign world though, be ready to give out their respective locations on an appropriate skill check result. That actually, could help speed things up quite a bit given that you also have to figure out the positions of the keeps.
You will have 1-2 who are really into it. The problem solvers.
You will have the rest who are like, "Er, I can't roleplay this... And I can't kill it... So I'm just gonna check Facebook on my iPhone...."
Make sure you prepare something else to happen, like an RP side trek or skill challenge while the problem solvers figure it out.
1. At the end of H2, the players defeated Paldemar and recovered some strange documents that they couldn't decipher. Detect Magic determined that there was a sort of magical encryption but Read Magic wasn't strong enough. (these encrypted papers were given to them as a puzzling and unreadable handout)
2. Players spent some time researching the papers and learned that they had been encrypted by a Vecnaesque spell. They eventually found a lead about a Seer in a major city to the south and travelled there to meet him.
3. The Seer performed a made-up NPC ritual and deciphered the writing. He then launched into a history of the region (somewhat loosely based off the war between the ancient empires of Bael Turath and Arkhosia) that explained that Karavakos was one of Bael Turath's most talented and evil wizards who developed cataclysmic spells and weapons. Because his motivations included defeating Arkhosia AND taking over Bael Turath for himself, he was imprisoned in the Pyramid of Shadows by his peers.
4. The decrypted papers (a new set of handouts that had the clues highlighted amongst all the gibberish) were then handed to the group, a couple of pages to each player. (each player essentially ended up with at least 2 of the clues) At that point I let them take over and kept an eye on stuff, ready to provide help (at a minor cost of xp for the challenge) if needed.
(sidenote: At one point early on I didn't like their solution graph as it didn't match the one I had used when I first solved the puzzle and tried to utter out a suggestion. I was 'politely' informed by one of my players to sit down and be quiet as they were going to solve the puzzle with ZERO hints or suggestions. Gotta love motivated players!)
5. The five players all got involved, taking turns reading their clues as the information was collected and written down on our ever present whiteboard. Someone would then suggest where a part of the puzzle would go and each player would respond if that matched what they had or conflicted, etc.
While the main answer key was assembled on the whiteboard, every other player was scribbling in their notebooks as they worked on their own theories waiting their turn to provide information for the main solution/double-checking the logic of their main key, etc.
When it was all said and done, it took the players exactly 30 minutes from the time they were handed the papers with the clues. I'll admit that they solved the puzzle correctly in a completely different pattern than I had which was pretty amazing to watch. Everyone was involved with it (I got complimented on splitting the clues out so that everyone had something in front of them instead of handing everything to the party leader. I think this really helped in making it a team exercise where no one was silent) and the reaction was very positive.
To make sure it wouldn't be a 'boring' RP and puzzle only session, there was a combat early in the session (some duergar from Clan Grimmerzuhl who tried in vain to avenge their fallen brothers in the Horned Hold) and some high powered thugs who were trying to retrieve the puzzle clues for their (as of yet unknown) employer. On the whole it made for a great session that covered all of the bases, combat, story progression, RP, puzzle.
I highly recommend (depends on the players of course) that DMs give a version of this puzzle a try in their campaigns. Questions/suggestions/comments welcome.
All in all it went great and I thank everyone again for their input and time that helped make it such a success!
On a side note I'd worry about PCs getting discouraged and then have nothing to do whilst the rest of the party tackles it. (maybe have assasins attack to keep the puzzle from getting solved? Have some work, the others defend? multiple puzzles if I dare?)
How do you think it would run with props?: miniatures(animals) drinks, chess pieces(Keeps) and glass beads(gemstones) for example.
You know I really thought of trying something like this but ran out of time. An interesting variation you could try is adding a trap component. Say the 5x5 puzzle grid is a series of pressure plates and the PCs have to set the prop items in the proper locations. Do it right and you unlock a door/reveal a hidden compartment/something. Put something in the wrong place and it gives a damaging electrical shock (scaled to the level of the party)
Hey, I got this out in about 45min, same as Erendor you have to guess on that last bit with the warrior. Never heard of the Einstein puzzle you mentioned, nor got help with this but the 5x5 matrix seemed the only way to go. Also, I've tried a few different combinations (3 after you put in the non guessing ones) and only the one came out right so I don't think there's multiple solutions.
On a side note I'd worry about PCs getting discouraged and then have nothing to do whilst the rest of the party tackles it. (maybe have assasins attack to keep the puzzle from getting solved? Have some work, the others defend? multiple puzzles if I dare?)
Hmmm, I don't recall having to make a guess anywhere in the puzzle. The "problem" though is that this is really a 6x6 puzzle.
1. Class
2. Keep
3. Animal
4. Drink
5. Gem
6. Position of Keep (W-E or slot 1-5)
I dunno, maybe I thought something was set in stone that wasn't, but I don't recall having to guess because there were enough clues when factoring in position to be able to figure everything out.