Looking for some ideas for an Epic Level campaign - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Looking for some ideas for an Epic Level campaign

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
dannoe
Oct 29, 2011 15:58:57 Hey guys,

I've been running a paragon tier game for a while now, and I'm starting to think about about the Epic Tier. We've got some time--probably more than a year, really--before we get there, but I've never run an Epic campaign before, and I've been wanting to do some planning. I mean, I have a basic high concept for our game (Bane and Shar are at war, and the PCs can either help Bane or Shar, but though Bane pays more, he also might unleash a second Spellplague if he kills Shar), and I know I need to blow that off in the Epic Tier, but in the meantime, we still need to do side quests, fill 10 levels of adventuring, and generally do what PCs do in the world.

It seems like the very vast majority of stuff that WotC publishes is for the Heroic Tier, and what isn't for Heroic is for Paragon. In the meantime, I still have a campaign to run. We can't literally "fight the gods" all the time.

So... Where? How? Against whom?

It is to answer these questions--or at least start thinking about them--that I want to do some reading now. Your thoughts?

Thanks in advance.
#2
Neejix
Oct 31, 2011 15:40:35
It seems like the very vast majority of stuff that WotC publishes is for the Heroic Tier, and what isn't for Heroic is for Paragon. In the meantime, I still have a campaign to run. We can't literally "fight the gods" all the time.

So... Where? How? Against whom?

I agree with you on the lack of epic support. There are the E1-3 adventures, but that is about all there is from the adventure products perspective. Probably some stuff in dungeon mag, but I haven't fished through there in a while--too disorganized for me to use and a huge time sink for little gain.

I think you have a few roads you could go down:

One option is to assume the story you are telling is connected from end to end. This is the path my current campaign follows. The main plot was already decided upon from day one....the players slowly learn what the plot is by peeling away the onion layers.

Another path is to use the tiers as breakpoints--each set of 10 levels is not necessarily connected to the others.

And the last option is to run everything in a disconnected fashion--episodic format, maybe with some plots that go across multiple episodes (multiple adventures).

Any of the above is fine--just depends on what you are comfortable handling.

As to the content of each tier--there are some bits of advice in the DMG and DMG2 on campaign arcs.

I used the below as my guide:

Heroic tier - the party is starting out, gaining a name. They might see some hints of what is to come--but those elements should remain mysterious or somewhat distant. By the end of heroic tier the party should be well known around their home area.

Paragon tier - the party branches out, heads to the planes a couple times at least, they become quite powerful (perhaps gain lands or followers, and a significant amount of resources). Plots started becoming more clear (in relation to what the enemy is after and who the main enemy is).

Epic tier - rarely are any ally NPCs at the same power level as the party--the party are pretty much the focus and power for their side in the battle. They heavily influence politics. They may have a large number of followers--but those followers are ill equipped to take on all of the challenges, at best they can help take care of more minor issues. Events during epic tier should be potentially world changing or world shattering.

I know the above is a little broad, but hopefully will help focus your ideas in a bit. I can certainly put down some rough details about a campaign I am running if specifics would help.
#3
dannoe
Nov 05, 2011 8:17:31 Thanks for the response.

I gotta say that I've been a little annoyed with the direction WotC has taken with game design lately. I mean, I get that 4e seems to have been a good jumping on point for folks who're interested in D&D but who never actually played the game, but as a long-time player and DM, I'm starting to feel like the forgotten man here. Though all the Immediate Actions make running combat a challenge at times, I like that the 4e campaign set-up is easier now, and I really like the way the game is actively balanced all the way through. And I'm happy that new folks are jumping in and learning the game; I'm happy that the simpler writing style in the books and the simpler balancing mechanics have made that possible.

But. All the focus right now is on the Heroic Tier. And that's a problem because I've been running and playing in 4e games since literally the week that 4e debuted, and as a result, none of my games are Heroic anymore, and frankly, I'm not looking back. We've taken the long road to get to 13th Level, and frankly, I see no reason to look back just because that's where the new source material is heading.

BTW, what's up with making Neverwinter an entirely Heroic setting, anyway? The actual Neverwinter novels are *obviously* the story of Drizzt and Artemis as they transition into the Epic Tier. Would it now therefore make sense to publish some Epic Tier support?

In any event, I think I've got what I'm gonna do for my campaign. My game takes place primarily in Luskan--my PCs are the new High Captains--and so I'm gonna take a page from the new novels and have the forces of Asmodeus establish a Dread Ring in Luskan's slums (called Southtown in our game). It works because we have a trip to the Hells on the schedule for the upper Paragon, and more to the point, one of my Players literally made a deal with the devil to make sure that Luskan is well-supplied with food going forward. So I'm gonna have the Dread Ring arrive at the same time that the new food shipments do, and that'll give us an excuse to put a cadre of Epic villains in town. That should take us through the lower Epic levels, and after that, we can get back to the main story. Course, I'll still need some mid- and upper- Epic encounters, but I'll worry about that when the time comes.
#4
ToeSama
Nov 05, 2011 15:22:10
BTW, what's up with making Neverwinter an entirely Heroic setting, anyway? The actual Neverwinter novels are *obviously* the story of Drizzt and Artemis as they transition into the Epic Tier. Would it now therefore make sense to publish some Epic Tier support?

The call for Epic Tier has been long coming, but a call for Heroic Tier material was just as in demand. It seems that many campaigns rarely leave the heroic tier stages of play, which is why they are so highly supported.

Epic Tier play is hard to pin down, because it takes PCs into situations that are so fantastic that they struggle not only with monsters, dungeons and hostile environments, but also with creatures, forces and realms outside of the scope of mortal comprehension, making it literally capable of being anything. I guess it's tough to put on paper...
#5
dannoe
Nov 05, 2011 17:16:35 Yes. You've hit the nail on the head exactly. This is why I wanted some examples around which to build my campaign.
#6
jimprofit
Nov 14, 2011 3:59:47
Epic Tier campaign ideas? I'll help you come up with ideas, but I ask in return you work on a net-game on skype so we can all enjoy it... lol!

--Dragonball Z. We all know these guys blow up planets like it was getting out of bed in the morning. I remember an old Toonami commercial giving it the slogan "the only show where the villains are the underdogs", and it's so true. That's what makes it awesome!!!

--Dieties and demigods. Imagine being a god, but it isn't all fun and games having grovveling servants and being this representation of your alignment. It's a lot of work too. You have to defeat other gods to secure your position, kil would-be rising new gods who want to take your place, and intervene regularly within the mortal and other realms in order to keep your presence alive and for people to remember you exist. How cool would it be to see Pelor, Garl Glittergold, and St.Curtburt all form a team to kick the ass out of the nine lords of Hell just so there's less evil in the world? Or perhaps they're going to go down to Earth and prevent the Nazis from winning World War 2. And St.Curtburt's response is "WHY DO I GOTTA' BE MR.PINK?!"

--Satirical "doesn't know their own strength". This one is something I'm surprised no one has tried. Perhaps because it isn't feasible longterm, but a cartoonish D&D game where you are the powerful hero, and you save the world again and again, but you yourself don't realize you are epic level. You think you're just a guy with some cool tricks and a desire for justice. But everyone around you knows better.

--Highlander. Sort of a gaunlet wargame of "there can be only one". Even if you try to run from being a highlander, others will surely come after you. Saving the world, and being an all around great guy comes secondary to killing off other immortals and taking their power.

Pic related sort of. This is what it looks like seeing hero tier go to epic tier.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 dannoe Oct 29, 2011 15:58:57	Hey guys, I've been running a paragon tier game for a while now, and I'm starting to think about about the Epic Tier. We've got some time--probably more than a year, really--before we get there, but I've never run an Epic campaign before, and I've been wanting to do some planning. I mean, I have a basic high concept for our game (Bane and Shar are at war, and the PCs can either help Bane or Shar, but though Bane pays more, he also might unleash a second Spellplague if he kills Shar), and I know I need to blow that off in the Epic Tier, but in the meantime, we still need to do side quests, fill 10 levels of adventuring, and generally do what PCs do in the world. It seems like the very vast majority of stuff that WotC publishes is for the Heroic Tier, and what isn't for Heroic is for Paragon. In the meantime, I still have a campaign to run. We can't literally "fight the gods" all the time. So... Where? How? Against whom? It is to answer these questions--or at least start thinking about them--that I want to do some reading now. Your thoughts? Thanks in advance.
#2 Neejix Oct 31, 2011 15:40:35	It seems like the very vast majority of stuff that WotC publishes is for the Heroic Tier, and what isn't for Heroic is for Paragon. In the meantime, I still have a campaign to run. We can't literally "fight the gods" all the time. So... Where? How? Against whom? I agree with you on the lack of epic support. There are the E1-3 adventures, but that is about all there is from the adventure products perspective. Probably some stuff in dungeon mag, but I haven't fished through there in a while--too disorganized for me to use and a huge time sink for little gain. I think you have a few roads you could go down: One option is to assume the story you are telling is connected from end to end. This is the path my current campaign follows. The main plot was already decided upon from day one....the players slowly learn what the plot is by peeling away the onion layers. Another path is to use the tiers as breakpoints--each set of 10 levels is not necessarily connected to the others. And the last option is to run everything in a disconnected fashion--episodic format, maybe with some plots that go across multiple episodes (multiple adventures). Any of the above is fine--just depends on what you are comfortable handling. As to the content of each tier--there are some bits of advice in the DMG and DMG2 on campaign arcs. I used the below as my guide: Heroic tier - the party is starting out, gaining a name. They might see some hints of what is to come--but those elements should remain mysterious or somewhat distant. By the end of heroic tier the party should be well known around their home area. Paragon tier - the party branches out, heads to the planes a couple times at least, they become quite powerful (perhaps gain lands or followers, and a significant amount of resources). Plots started becoming more clear (in relation to what the enemy is after and who the main enemy is). Epic tier - rarely are any ally NPCs at the same power level as the party--the party are pretty much the focus and power for their side in the battle. They heavily influence politics. They may have a large number of followers--but those followers are ill equipped to take on all of the challenges, at best they can help take care of more minor issues. Events during epic tier should be potentially world changing or world shattering. I know the above is a little broad, but hopefully will help focus your ideas in a bit. I can certainly put down some rough details about a campaign I am running if specifics would help.
#3 dannoe Nov 05, 2011 8:17:31	Thanks for the response. I gotta say that I've been a little annoyed with the direction WotC has taken with game design lately. I mean, I get that 4e seems to have been a good jumping on point for folks who're interested in D&D but who never actually played the game, but as a long-time player and DM, I'm starting to feel like the forgotten man here. Though all the Immediate Actions make running combat a challenge at times, I like that the 4e campaign set-up is easier now, and I really like the way the game is actively balanced all the way through. And I'm happy that new folks are jumping in and learning the game; I'm happy that the simpler writing style in the books and the simpler balancing mechanics have made that possible. But. All the focus right now is on the Heroic Tier. And that's a problem because I've been running and playing in 4e games since literally the week that 4e debuted, and as a result, none of my games are Heroic anymore, and frankly, I'm not looking back. We've taken the long road to get to 13th Level, and frankly, I see no reason to look back just because that's where the new source material is heading. BTW, what's up with making Neverwinter an entirely Heroic setting, anyway? The actual Neverwinter novels are obviously the story of Drizzt and Artemis as they transition into the Epic Tier. Would it now therefore make sense to publish some Epic Tier support? In any event, I think I've got what I'm gonna do for my campaign. My game takes place primarily in Luskan--my PCs are the new High Captains--and so I'm gonna take a page from the new novels and have the forces of Asmodeus establish a Dread Ring in Luskan's slums (called Southtown in our game). It works because we have a trip to the Hells on the schedule for the upper Paragon, and more to the point, one of my Players literally made a deal with the devil to make sure that Luskan is well-supplied with food going forward. So I'm gonna have the Dread Ring arrive at the same time that the new food shipments do, and that'll give us an excuse to put a cadre of Epic villains in town. That should take us through the lower Epic levels, and after that, we can get back to the main story. Course, I'll still need some mid- and upper- Epic encounters, but I'll worry about that when the time comes.
#4 ToeSama Nov 05, 2011 15:22:10	BTW, what's up with making Neverwinter an entirely Heroic setting, anyway? The actual Neverwinter novels are obviously the story of Drizzt and Artemis as they transition into the Epic Tier. Would it now therefore make sense to publish some Epic Tier support? The call for Epic Tier has been long coming, but a call for Heroic Tier material was just as in demand. It seems that many campaigns rarely leave the heroic tier stages of play, which is why they are so highly supported. Epic Tier play is hard to pin down, because it takes PCs into situations that are so fantastic that they struggle not only with monsters, dungeons and hostile environments, but also with creatures, forces and realms outside of the scope of mortal comprehension, making it literally capable of being anything. I guess it's tough to put on paper...
#5 dannoe Nov 05, 2011 17:16:35	Yes. You've hit the nail on the head exactly. This is why I wanted some examples around which to build my campaign.
#6 jimprofit Nov 14, 2011 3:59:47	Epic Tier campaign ideas? I'll help you come up with ideas, but I ask in return you work on a net-game on skype so we can all enjoy it... lol! --Dragonball Z. We all know these guys blow up planets like it was getting out of bed in the morning. I remember an old Toonami commercial giving it the slogan "the only show where the villains are the underdogs", and it's so true. That's what makes it awesome!!! --Dieties and demigods. Imagine being a god, but it isn't all fun and games having grovveling servants and being this representation of your alignment. It's a lot of work too. You have to defeat other gods to secure your position, kil would-be rising new gods who want to take your place, and intervene regularly within the mortal and other realms in order to keep your presence alive and for people to remember you exist. How cool would it be to see Pelor, Garl Glittergold, and St.Curtburt all form a team to kick the ass out of the nine lords of Hell just so there's less evil in the world? Or perhaps they're going to go down to Earth and prevent the Nazis from winning World War 2. And St.Curtburt's response is "WHY DO I GOTTA' BE MR.PINK?!" --Satirical "doesn't know their own strength". This one is something I'm surprised no one has tried. Perhaps because it isn't feasible longterm, but a cartoonish D&D game where you are the powerful hero, and you save the world again and again, but you yourself don't realize you are epic level. You think you're just a guy with some cool tricks and a desire for justice. But everyone around you knows better. --Highlander. Sort of a gaunlet wargame of "there can be only one". Even if you try to run from being a highlander, others will surely come after you. Saving the world, and being an all around great guy comes secondary to killing off other immortals and taking their power. Pic related sort of. This is what it looks like seeing hero tier go to epic tier.