Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 dave2008 Jul 19, 2009 21:27:12	I need help developing a skill and rp heavy campaign. I have decided to start DMing a campaign for my sons and possibly some of their friends. Since they are young (6 & 8) I am going to take about 1 year introducing them to my 4e homebrew rules and developing their characters and the world of the campaign before we actually start playing. They are natural role players and I want to emphasis that, skill challenges and mystery over actual combat. However, every campaign I’ve done with adults has been much more combat heavy. I was hoping you (the D&D community) could help me develop some ideas to keep the adventures exciting and interesting without relying to much on combat. Here is some background info about the campaign world: The campaign generally follows the core rules cosmology, except gods, primordials, demon lords, etc. are vastly more powerful and the “first work” is actually the entire universe not just a world. The home world (no name yet) is broken into three major continents (no names yet). The western continent is low-magic (in a dark age) and the eastern continent is high-magic. Passage between the two is almost impossible because of dragon patrolled mountains on the western edge or the east continent and great a maelstrom in the ocean and skies between the eastern edge of the east and the western edge of the west. The southern continent is thought to be a mostly unexplored wilderness of great evil and danger. Here are the PC races the players may select: Azer, Barghest, Bullywug, Cambion, Centaur, Couatl, Cyclops, Deva, Doppelganger, Dragonborn, Drake, Drakkoth, Drow, Drider, Duergar, Dwarf, Eladrin, Elf, Firbolg, Fomorian, Gargoyle, Galeb Duhr, Giant, Githyanki, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goblin, Goliath, Hobgoblin, Half-Elf, Half-Orc, Harpy, Hound, Human, Kenku, Kobold, Kuo-Toa, Lizard-Folk, Were-bear/ boar/cat (tiger/lion/etc.)/rat/wolf, Medusa, Mind Flayer, Minotaur, Naga, Ogre, Oni, Orc, Phoelarch, Sahuagin, Satyr, Shadeer-kai, Shifter, Snake, Spriggan, Tiefling, Troglodyte, Troll,Unicorn, Vampire, Warforged, Wolf, Yuan-Ti, Thank you for your help – Dave.
#2 gregt_314 Jul 19, 2009 22:30:25	Here's my advice - and look, just consider it. If you still want to do what you're doing, go nuts. Play what you'll enjoy, that's the important thing. But: D&D 4th Edition does one thing well. It has one, and only one strength that distinguishes it from the rest of the marketplace. That's combat. It is, for my money, the best tactical combat RPG on the market. It really loves its grids and its powers and its combat balance. No one else out there at the moment comes close. If you're running a low-combat game, you really need to stop and say, hey, wait, why on Earth am I playing D&D 4th Edition? Why am I mounting what is, in essence, "low-money Monopoly" or "Trivial Pursuit but without the hard questions", when there are other roleplaying games out there that really love story and character and non-combat resolutions with a depth and enthusiasm that D&D can only guess at? So, like I said, if you want to go ahead with a low combat D&D game go nuts. The way you get to be a better DM is by doing things that are hard, contrary, and misguided, and fighting uphill can be a kind of fun all in itself. It can absolutely be done, and done well; it's just why would you carve a pumpkin using a nerf-bat when there's a knife right there?
#3 dave2008 Jul 20, 2009 6:31:46	If you're running a low-combat game, you really need to stop and say, hey, wait, why on Earth am I playing D&D 4th Edition? Why am I mounting what is, in essence, "low-money Monopoly" or "Trivial Pursuit but without the hard questions", when there are other roleplaying games out there that really love story and character and non-combat resolutions with a depth and enthusiasm that D&D can only guess at? Interesting suggestions, but I want to use the "combat engine" that 4e provides. I don't want to eliminate combat entirely I just want to teach them to think before they fight. My plan is to slowly add more combat as they move to paragon and epic tiers. However, if there is a concept, rule or idea that another system uses to aid non combat encounters I would love to hear it.
#4 meddros Jul 20, 2009 15:46:15	Roleplaying is completely subjective. You can run it in any game. I figured that out with 4e. But then again roleplaying does not really require rules but imagination where if you want to do combat a system is a much more structured way of dealing with that in terms everyone can agree with. So use the 4e rules for your combat but as far as roleplaying goes (like GregT said) just have at it. Do it your way as far as story and roleplaying go. But for challanging fun the skill challanges are a nice way to put none combat situations into the game.
#5 gregt_314 Jul 20, 2009 19:15:13	Interesting suggestions, but I want to use the "combat engine" that 4e provides. I don't want to eliminate combat entirely I just want to teach them to think before they fight. My plan is to slowly add more combat as they move to paragon and epic tiers. However, if there is a concept, rule or idea that another system uses to aid non combat encounters I would love to hear it. If your aim is to have a more "thinky" game, can I suggest you follow this principle: combat is story. For example, the first time your fighter tries to use his first daily power, stop combat, and go back to the time that your fighter was training with his sensai; have him roll an attack, and tell him it misses. Have him roll another, and tell him it misses. Have his sensai tell him he is not one with the blade - he is distracted by worldly fears and worries - and that until he finds inner peace, he will never master the sword. Then come back to the present day and have your fighter roll his attack on his daily. If he hits, it's character growth, and if he misses, it's the start of a character arc about coming to terms with himself. You can do that with anyone. After your Warlock has thrown around his at-wills for a few encounters, go back to his training and talk about how these "at-will powers" are actually weakening the fabric of reality, allowing the Things That Must Not Be to draw closer to our mortal realm and smell us. Establish that even master warlocks only dare to use these powers once, twice in their career. Then come back to the present where your warlock is using them three or four times an encounter. Now every time he uses them it's not just an attack - it's plot. On your other question, I'm not a fan of grafting systems together - it tends to cheapen everyone involved. For good or for ill, 4th Edition includes its current diplomacy and skill challenge mechanics in its overall balance and if you replace them it has flow-on effects.
#6 dave2008 Jul 20, 2009 20:40:54	Do it your way as far as story and roleplaying go. But for challanging fun the skill challanges are a nice way to put none combat situations into the game. I need to clarify: roleplaying is not a problem and not what I need help with. Kids are natural roleplayers, I just want to stear them away from combat for the most part. I am looking for exciting methods to implement skill/bility checks and skill challenges. I want to use these to keep them interested. I need help because I am fairly new to this type of design in 4e.
#7 dave2008 Jul 20, 2009 20:46:35	If your aim is to have a more "thinky" game, can I suggest you follow this principle: combat is story. This is a good approach; however, I am really trying to reduce the combat elements. I don't mind if combat has a strong story element, but I am looking to have only one combat encounter every one or two adventures! On your other question, I'm not a fan of grafting systems together - it tends to cheapen everyone involved. For good or for ill, 4th Edition includes its current diplomacy and skill challenge mechanics in its overall balance and if you replace them it has flow-on effects. I not really looking to replace them, I would prefer good examples of skill/ability check use and skill challenges as I am new to this aspect of 4e design.
#8 tcm8 Jul 20, 2009 23:56:27	Well, ultimately setting can also dictate if you use combat or not. If your characters have been off at war only to return to their capital city to find that a tyrant has taken the place of their noble king and somehow find themselves stuck within the city walls with guards walking all about, than you would second guess starting fights when your out numbered 40:1. There are hostile troops all around you, you wouldn't just start killing all those that are loyal to the 'new' king, or you would surely die, and emphasize this fact to them and they won't start combats if they don't have to. Setting can be key on combat situations.
#9 dave2008 Jul 21, 2009 8:53:08	Setting can be key on combat situations. Good point, but what I need are ideas of what to do outside of combat
#10 graxith Jul 21, 2009 15:15:25	Alright, then send them to a dungeon/cave/ruins/etc. after an item that is important to the group/storyline. They're told that it's abandoned, and guess what, when they get there it really is. As they're walking through they find puzzles and traps that may not be to extremely difficult, but could require a tiny bit of thinking. As they go deeper in some areas have dangerous footing and other hazards that require skill challenges. Have them find a place that wasn't on the map they were given and have them explore it and find something wonderful [that's up to you to come up with]. Then, depending on how long it took and wether or not you're ready to give them a little bit of combat, have a small creature [minion] guarding the treasure, or another puzzle and trap that are required to get the item.
#11 Grimbus Jul 21, 2009 19:07:37	Can thiink of some scenarios - some are from literature Chases/tracking/detective work In the Three Musketeers the musketeers have to find the diamonds before the Queen's flirtation is discovered. You could set a similar quest - find the silver dagger or something - this will involve investigation and search skills - the players will have to use perception, search, intimidate and riding skills to find out who has the dagger, they will have to interact with characters and work out the best strategies to get information - flattery might work for certain characters, whilst bribery or coercion might work for others. Some of the characters they interview will be socially superior, so they will have to use tact and diplomacy as well. Gossip could come in handy - "Tell us how th ecombination fo rthe safe endend up in Cardinal Richeleu's pocket or we'll tell the mayor what really happened at the Midsumer reception" They may also have to use language skills to talk to other races and so on. Solve the murder I've taken part in a number of solve the murder games - hardly any combat takes place at all. Again players need to interview and see if they can detect inconsistencies in stories to detect the murderer. Again skills such as perception and search will also work - Maybe take a look at a couple of episodes of Caedfel, the Name of the Rose, or Sherlock Holmes. Take part in games Send the characters to the Olympics or whatever - then the players have to use sporting prowess or whatever - Robin Hood and the Silver Arrow springs to mind. The players have to run/jump/throw the discuss or whatever. They could accumulate points for each event as a team. Jousts could also be used, or some kind of wizard competition. Spies Players have to infiltrate a fortress and find out the identity of the head of the assassin's guild. Combat will draw too much attention to themselves. Sneak skills, perception, mapping, questioning Find the ingredients Find the ingredients for a potion that will heal the sick king . Players will have to climb tall mountains, barter with reluctant goblins and maybe steal a few ingredients too. They might also find out who poisoned the king (a cabal of Barons) and have to find the evidence so they can be prosecuted. Extra Extra, Read all about it - players get hired as journalists - the idea is to report the story, not make the story - so how do they get an interview with a red dragon and the crazy blonde who said she was kidnapped by him. There could be some milage in this. You award experience points for each story completed.
#12 dave2008 Jul 21, 2009 20:18:11	Alright, then send them to a dungeon/cave/ruins/etc. after an item that is important to the group/storyline. They're told that it's abandoned, and guess what, when they get there it really is. As they're walking through they find puzzles and traps that may not be to extremely difficult, but could require a tiny bit of thinking. As they go deeper in some areas have dangerous footing and other hazards that require skill challenges. Have them find a place that wasn't on the map they were given and have them explore it and find something wonderful [that's up to you to come up with]. Then, depending on how long it took and wether or not you're ready to give them a little bit of combat, have a small creature [minion] guarding the treasure, or another puzzle and trap that are required to get the item. Good ideas, thank you.
#13 dave2008 Jul 21, 2009 20:19:45	Can thiink of some scenarios - some are from literature Chases/tracking/detective work Solve the murder Take part in games Spies Find the ingredients Extra Extra, Read all about it - All very good suggestions - thank you
#14 Grimbus Jul 22, 2009 3:42:05	To reduce the amount of combat you might want to introduce the following;- Powerful right hook/bump on the head - Works just like the movies/TV - a sock on the jaw immediately puts the recipient temporarily out of action. Wakes up rubbing jaw/head - still fighting, but reduces the amount of combat. Wands/Rods of paralysis/sleep spells - immediately freezes recipient for long enough allowing them to be restrained. Both options would mean the characters would not have to create an irreversible situation - that is they could go back and think again - that doesn't mean there are no consequences - the players may have to apologise or donate large amounts of treasure to the Rich Noble's Younch Achievers Benevolent Fund before they get the information they will need.
#15 seyeklopz Jul 25, 2009 22:23:31	Just make combat a virtual battle of wills at first? Keep it simple. Then add some actual life and death climaxes here and there. The lackeys give up and tell you what you need to know or help you, but the boss has no one to betray.