Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 old_dog Dec 13, 2011 3:50:19	Greetings all, Looking for some advice from the community of DMs and Players.  After reading some RE Howard stories, Conan and Bran Mac Morn, I am in the mindset of running a very low magic item campaign.  I plan to use inherent bonuses for almost everything.  There would be Relic Items for ages past that are actually permanent magical creations.  Player would still have access to things like Superior Implements such as Accurate Rods.  Just not the magical kind. So a few questions. 1)    Should I ask characters for a “wish list” of magic items and tailor a specific item for them. 2)    To keep the flavor of a lost Relic create items, give it to the party, and not follow the wish list. 3)     Use sages and bards to give the characters information about Relic items that fit what they desire. I have a range of players that all seem to generally go along with the campaign concepts.  I have discussed this idea and they all seem up for it although we have not gone into much detail.  Any other advice the community has for me?
#2 salla Dec 13, 2011 4:07:43	Are those three separate questions, or is it multiple choice? I think 1 and 3 in combination is probably best.  If magic items are supposed to be rare, it would be more important that what the PCs do find is useful, and dropping hints via NPCs so that they go looking for what they want to find makes a lot of sense.
#3 Dapifer Dec 13, 2011 4:52:38	I agree, you could also use the Inherent Bonus variant and then just go nuts with the Relics. They could be ultra rare and do whatever you think is appropiate, since the upkeep is coming from the inherent bonus.
#4 kitsunegami Dec 13, 2011 19:05:16	I agree, you could also use the Inherent Bonus variant and then just go nuts with the Relics. They could be ultra rare and do whatever you think is appropiate, since the upkeep is coming from the inherent bonus. That's exactly what I was going to suggest.
#5 tanjian Dec 13, 2011 19:54:28	ditto to the above. that's exactly what we are doing in our current campaign, and it is working great. All of our critical numbers stay competitive and the few magic items/relics we have come across still have a very "special" feel.
#6 old_dog Dec 14, 2011 0:41:21	To keep the Relics useful I was thinking that they automatically increase in plus.  For instance when a character is within 4 levels of the next plus the item gets better.  In the game I would call this the strong bond between player and Relic that empowers it.   Flame Tongue weapons have increases at item level 10/15/20/25/30.  A character that has a +2 one would increase it to +3 when they hit 16th level.  Do you think the 4 level thing is the right range?
#7 Dapifer Dec 14, 2011 3:08:07	In the DMG II on the page 138 there's a sidebar called "A Reward Based Game" that covers something similar to what you are saying. It's that characters gain a +1 increase in AC, Defenses, Attack and Damage. At 2nd and every five levels thereafter (2, 7, 12, 17, 22, 27). If you have the book give it a read, I think it will suit your needs very well. This would allow the Flame Tongue weapon to do more than just another d6 Fire, it could set things on fire on contact, or throw scorching rays or whatever you believe fits. I personally like the relics scaling with the power of the Heroes, as has been show in various media over time. I think that with inherent bonuses a Flame Tongue weapon could start with a simple fire use and then gain fire based powers as the characters grow in level. You could use the level guide line for your plus treshold, but if you want to wait until paragon to start scaling your magic items(like in your example) I see nothing wrong with that.
#8 edwin_su Dec 14, 2011 3:42:30	To keep the Relics useful I was thinking that they automatically increase in plus.  For instance when a character is within 4 levels of the next plus the item gets better.  In the game I would call this the strong bond between player and Relic that empowers it.   Flame Tongue weapons have increases at item level 10/15/20/25/30.  A character that has a +2 one would increase it to +3 when they hit 16th level.  Do you think the 4 level thing is the right range?  if you have an inherent to hit bonus i would make the items work of the inherent to hit bonus. meaning if you have an inheren't +2 to hit  the flamtongue would work as the + 2 flame tongue that is a level 10 item when your inherent to hit bonus increases to +3 the flame tongue functions as the +3 version that is a level 15 item. This might add another intresting effect. there is no +1 version of the flame tongue, meaning that at lower level a flamtongue would act just like any other normal sword untill you reach the level where you get the +2 inherent bonus and it's magical effects start to work. meaning some low level warior might be using it not even knowing how special the item he has got is. becouse he hasen't got the ( power, focus, inner strength whatever you want to call it ) to power the item.
#9 Aetharion Dec 14, 2011 4:23:41	To keep the Relics useful I was thinking that they automatically increase in plus.  For instance when a character is within 4 levels of the next plus the item gets better.  In the game I would call this the strong bond between player and Relic that empowers it.   Flame Tongue weapons have increases at item level 10/15/20/25/30.  A character that has a +2 one would increase it to +3 when they hit 16th level.  Do you think the 4 level thing is the right range?  if you have an inherent to hit bonus i would make the items work of the inherent to hit bonus. meaning if you have an inheren't +2 to hit  the flamtongue would work as the + 2 flame tongue that is a level 10 item when your inherent to hit bonus increases to +3 the flame tongue functions as the +3 version that is a level 15 item. This might add another intresting effect. there is no +1 version of the flame tongue, meaning that at lower level a flamtongue would act just like any other normal sword untill you reach the level where you get the +2 inherent bonus and it's magical effects start to work. meaning some low level warior might be using it not even knowing how special the item he has got is. becouse he hasen't got the ( power, focus, inner strength whatever you want to call it ) to power the item. Too bad that the inherent bonuses in the character builder don't work that way - the bonuses are treated as enhancement bonuses, and as such don't stack with the enhancement bonuses of weapons, armor and neck items, but it also means that magic items will be able to override the inherent bonus if the item enhancement bonus is greater than the active inherent bonus. It's only a matter of +1 in comparison to your party members (unless you get a Vorpal weapon or something similar at level 2), so it could symbolize masterwork weapon status in addition to the flaming part, albeit a masterwork status that would be overridden as soon as the character is so strong that any weapon will do.
#10 edwin_su Dec 14, 2011 4:44:11	To keep the Relics useful I was thinking that they automatically increase in plus.  For instance when a character is within 4 levels of the next plus the item gets better.  In the game I would call this the strong bond between player and Relic that empowers it.   Flame Tongue weapons have increases at item level 10/15/20/25/30.  A character that has a +2 one would increase it to +3 when they hit 16th level.  Do you think the 4 level thing is the right range?  if you have an inherent to hit bonus i would make the items work of the inherent to hit bonus. meaning if you have an inheren't +2 to hit  the flamtongue would work as the + 2 flame tongue that is a level 10 item when your inherent to hit bonus increases to +3 the flame tongue functions as the +3 version that is a level 15 item. This might add another intresting effect. there is no +1 version of the flame tongue, meaning that at lower level a flamtongue would act just like any other normal sword untill you reach the level where you get the +2 inherent bonus and it's magical effects start to work. meaning some low level warior might be using it not even knowing how special the item he has got is. becouse he hasen't got the ( power, focus, inner strength whatever you want to call it ) to power the item. Too bad that the inherent bonuses in the character builder don't work that way - the bonuses are treated as enhancement bonuses, and as such don't stack with the enhancement bonuses of weapons, armor and neck items, but it also means that magic items will be able to override the inherent bonus if the item enhancement bonus is greater than the active inherent bonus. It's only a matter of +1 in comparison to your party members (unless you get a Vorpal weapon or something similar at level 2), so it could symbolize masterwork weapon status in addition to the flaming part, albeit a masterwork status that would be overridden as soon as the character is so strong that any weapon will do. well what i mean is you could just do away with the +x bonus on magic items all together. so when you level up and go from a +2 inherent to +3 inherent you just swap the +2 flame tongue for a +3 version in the character builder. so the bonus of a magical item is always equal to your inherent bonus. this way the powers of magic items that increase with level would increase with you as you level up. and you don't get the effect i got the flame tongue mentioned in so many legends but it is only a +2 flame tongue doing 5 ongoing on it's encounter power. now i have to go looking for a even more legendery version of it that is +3 to get the + 10 ongoing fire.
#11 bakha Dec 14, 2011 5:30:14	Our campaign is in a low-magic world right now. Our DM has gone the route of just choosing items for us that he feels are appropriate. I like it because it feels old school and makes you pretty stoked about whatever you get. Although I understand the reasons for players providing shopping lists of magic items to the DM and have used that system successfully in the past, I've never fully embraced the concept. I happily created builds around specific magic items and gloried in how they integrated with my PC, but it always struck me as off (just a matter of opinion). Because of this, I have enmoyed the system of the DM choosing our magic items and integrating them into the storyline. Of course, our DM is also pretty knowledgeable about charop and tends to give us magic items that are tailored to our PC builds anyway.
#12 Aetharion Dec 14, 2011 7:51:42	well what i mean is you could just do away with the +x bonus on magic items all together. so when you level up and go from a +2 inherent to +3 inherent you just swap the +2 flame tongue for a +3 version in the character builder. so the bonus of a magical item is always equal to your inherent bonus. this way the powers of magic items that increase with level would increase with you as you level up. and you don't get the effect i got the flame tongue mentioned in so many legends but it is only a +2 flame tongue doing 5 ongoing on it's encounter power. now i have to go looking for a even more legendery version of it that is +3 to get the + 10 ongoing fire. And what I just said is that the Character Builder automatically does that, except for that it can't make a +1 or +0 Flame Tongue weapon, which means that you'll have to do the math after printing out. It can only do +2 and upwards, since the inherent bonuses automatically apply only if the bonus is greater than that of the current magic item. Inherent +2 bonus with a +1 Shade weapon would be the same as a +2 Shade weapon, and inherent +4 bonus with a +2 Flame Tongue weapon would be the same as a +4 Flame Tongue weapon. But inherent +1 bonus with a +2 Flame Tongue weapon would be the same as a +2 Flame Tongue weapon, since inherent bonuses don't adjust downwards. And Vorpal weapons are only ever equal to +6. I'm only saying that it's too bad that it requires a fair deal more work than just using the Character Builder, especially since you'd have to come up with a way to solve the non-enhancement issue that you brought to mind yourself. But the idea is splendid for a low-magic campaign that contains only a few, legendary weapons that come close to anything resembling magical weapons from other campaigns. I'd recommend giving out more rare items than uncommon items (in comparison to a "regular" campaign), since it makes the weapons feel more special. A Flame Tongue weapon is really a prime example of this, since it grants both a wielder-passive; an attack-passive; an attack-trigger; and an entirely separate attack power, and since it gets along really nicely with the "typical" image of an enchanted weapon.
#13 kitsunegami Dec 15, 2011 0:02:20	To keep the Relics useful I was thinking that they automatically increase in plus.  For instance when a character is within 4 levels of the next plus the item gets better.  In the game I would call this the strong bond between player and Relic that empowers it. Flame Tongue weapons have increases at item level 10/15/20/25/30.  A character that has a +2 one would increase it to +3 when they hit 16th level. Do you think the 4 level thing is the right range? If you have an inherent to hit bonus I would make the items work of the inherent to hit bonus. Meaning if you have an inherent +2 to hit  the flamtongue would work as the +2 flame tongue that is a level 10 item. When your inherent to hit bonus increases to +3 the flame tongue functions as the +3 version that is a level 15 item. This might add another interesting effect. There is no +1 version of the flame tongue, meaning that at lower level a flametongue would act just like any other normal sword until you reach the level where you get the +2 inherent bonus and it's magical effects start to work. Meaning some low level warrior might be using it not even knowing how special the item he has got is because he hasn't got the (power, focus, inner strength whatever you want to call it) to power the item. I rather like that. Especially since I'm used to HackMaster 5e where +1 and +2 items aren't even magical; they're effectively masterwork. Speaking of HM5e, in my campaign the PCs will eventually discover a rare metal called "escudo". Just like in, Magic Knight Rayearth, the anime from which I get the term, weapons and armor made from escudo will grow in power as their wielders do. Thus their gear will automatically gain pluses as they level up and will gain new abilities at dramatically appropriate moments. In the anime the girls' gear upgraded every time they overcame a particularly tough obstacle or one of them became mentally or emotionally stronger in some way. I'm using that as my model. Other than their customized escudo gear and healing potions, the PCs will be finding very few magic items since such are extrememly rare in our world (I say "our" instead of "mine" because the game is highly experimental; the players and I are creating it as we go along). For the most part, our group prefers very low magic games so we were really happy to see the Inherent Bonus rules in DMG2 (a fantastic book that I highly recommend even for people who hate D&D; it's a really good GMing resource regardless of your favorite system).
#14 old_dog Dec 15, 2011 4:11:05	I rather like that. Especially since I'm used to HackMaster 5e where +1 and +2 items aren't even magical; they're effectively masterwork. Speaking of HM5e, in my campaign the PCs will eventually discover a rare metal called "escudo". Just like in, Magic Knight Rayearth, the anime from which I get the term, weapons and armor made from escudo will grow in power as their wielders do. Thus their gear will automatically gain pluses as they level up and will gain new abilities at dramatically appropriate moments. In the anime the girls' gear upgraded every time they overcame a particularly tough obstacle or one of them became mentally or emotionally stronger in some way. I'm using that as my model. Other than their customized escudo gear and healing potions, the PCs will be finding very few magic items since such are extrememly rare in our world (I say "our" instead of "mine" because the game is highly experimental; the players and I are creating it as we go along). For the most part, our group prefers very low magic games so we were really happy to see the Inherent Bonus rules in DMG2 (a fantastic book that I highly recommend even for people who hate D&D; it's a really good GMing resource regardless of your favorite system). This sounds like an interesting Anime and I will check into it this weekend.  Thanks for the info and also to Netflix for having it.
#15 kev777 Dec 15, 2011 8:58:28	I'm doing the same thing for my campaign.    I'm using inherent bonuses and allowing them to stack with the artifacts/relics the characters have.  The reason is that is just feels wrong if their magical weapon isn't any better to hit than their other non magical weapons.  What I do is combine the powers from several magical items into one and add a bit more flavour.    As the characters gain power their artifacts also grow in power with them.