I've come to realize (thanks to some on the forum) that magic missile seems... underpowered.
Do you have any house rules that fix this, or do you just run with it? I was thinking about having 1 missile +1/ tier, each dealing 1D4+int, but if combined you do 2D4+int, and is allowed to push the target one square.
All comments are appreciated.
All comments are appreciated.
I think its fine as is: the spell has the longest range, plus it gets bonusses from items that grant them to basic attacks (I'm thinking bracers that give +2/+4/+6 damage on basic ranged attacks).
Is Eldritch Blast (warlock power that is also a basic ranged attack) so much more powerfull?
I've come to realize (thanks to some on the forum) that magic missile seems... underpowered.
Do you have any house rules that fix this, or do you just run with it? I was thinking about having 1 missile +1/ tier, each dealing 1D4+int, but if combined you do 2D4+int, and is allowed to push the target one square.
All comments are appreciated.
The designers assume you'll use a different Power if you want to do more, rather than upgrading a spell. I think it would be wrong (as in not balanced) to upgrade Magic Missile by scaling it directly. Perhaps feat powers that added some once-daily extras would be good.
I'd really like to see either some Wizard Powers, or an Arcane Class, that takes the same angle for spells as the Martial classes take with their weapons - i.e. higher level powers are often the same basic thing (a blow with a weapon) but with more added - such as called shots, move+attack, knockbacks etc etc.
In other words, it would be nice to see a Wizard who just had three "core" spells (as a fighter might have only one or two types of weapon they normally use), and the Powers represented all the funky things that they could do with them. For instance, a Magic Missile that got a headhsot could be a daily power that did 3D10+Int bonus and Dazed the opponent.
I think the only reason this has not been considered is what to call such a power - it would not be a "spell" per se, but some combination of spell and a martial exploit. It would add complexity, but not affect balance, so there is little to gain except the visualisation of a different kind of wizard.
Hmm... I didn't think of bonuses to basic ranged... and range, well we never seem to have anything larger than 16 squares, and that perhaps once, it seems 'unrealistic' in the eyes of (we change, I'm DM at the moment) the others. I'll think less of it when more attacks become available at higher levels. Probably. I've thought of it as I have 1 melee basic, one ranged basic, and one 'magic' attack. I'll probably try to advise our next DM to create... a giant adventure, perhaps, with grand halls that make range matter.
We did get a mea culpa from the developers about the PHB1 wizard at-wills - some of them were more appropriate to strikers than controllers, since the controller role hadn't really been pinned down at the time the PHB1 powers were written.
Subsequent books have presented a few things that can enhance Magic Missile, but if you want to build it directly into the power, you could add a Push 1 effect, or perhaps have it function like a ranged Cleave, causing Int force damage to a creature adjacent to the target. It could also be made to cause the target to grant Combat Advantage to the next creature to attack it (themed that the bolt knocks the target off balance), similar to one of the druid at-wills.
I would probably choose the third option, since it doesn't duplicate any of the subsequent-book enhancements, it's an established controller effect, and we now have a Slide 1 at-will in Arcane Power.
Eldritch Blast is only slightly better at its core, but the warlock gets to add his Curse bonus on top of it, while the wizard doesn't have any equivalent.
I don't think you should put Curse in the equation: For one, the curse is only because they are strikers (while wizard is not). In comparison: a rangers basic attack does more damage then a fighter's, yet the fighter has no special at will power that counts as basic attack. The wizard (or fighter in the other case) have other class abilities.
Hmm... I didn't think of bonuses to basic ranged... and range, well we never seem to have anything larger than 16 squares, and that perhaps once, it seems 'unrealistic' in the eyes of (we change, I'm DM at the moment) the others.
yeah ... I once send a fiery flying harpy against the party: the thing flies and has an aura (range 20; deals autodamage). The combat consisted out of
- ranger, being the only real effective combat character
- fighter, using basic attack javalins
- cleric, healing the party
- wizard, useless after his range 20 encounter powers were used.
yeah ... I once send a fiery flying harpy against the party: the thing flies and has an aura (range 20; deals autodamage). The combat consisted out of
- ranger, being the only real effective combat character
- fighter, using basic attack javalins
- cleric, healing the party
- wizard, useless after his range 20 encounter powers were used.
This sounds like a terrilbly designed encounter. I wouldn't try using it to prove any points if I were you...
> one, the curse is only because they are strikers (while
> wizard is not).
And it's probably the most glaring example of the developer-admitted inappropriately striker-like wizard at-wills, rendered ineffective because he's *not* a striker.
The idea of breaking it up into d4 missles with an extra missle each at paragon and epic is a good one. Maybe something like:
Magic Missle wizard attack 1
You conjure a volley of force missles against your enemies.
At Will * Arcane, Force, Implement
Standard Action Ranged 20
Special: You produce 2 force missles, and decide how many of them to direct at each target.
Target: One enemy within range, or one or more enemies within 10 squares of you and eachother.
Attack: INT vs REF, one attack roll per target
Hit: (1d4 per missle directed at the target) + INT
Level 11: You produce 3 force missles.
Level 21: You produce 4 force missles.
That's more or less what I thought of, it's more control; lots of possible targets, instead of strikerish; high damage on a single target. I think I'll use that or something similar. Come to think of it, it reminds me of the magic missile in baldur's gate; more missiles the higher the level.
More missiles at higher levels is one of the two things they changed, the other being the autohit nature of magic missile.
The issue with doing anything that allows magic missile to assail more targets is how easily to becomes overly powerful due to items (Missile Mastery wand/staff, aformentioned bracers, eagle eye goggles) and feats (from the arcane school article) and paragon paths, the magic missile winds up out doing eldritch blast.
More missiles at higher levels is one of the two things they changed, the other being the autohit nature of magic missile.
The issue with doing anything that allows magic missile to assail more targets is how easily to becomes overly powerful due to items (Missile Mastery wand/staff, aformentioned bracers, eagle eye goggles) and feats (from the arcane school article) and paragon paths, the magic missile winds up out doing eldritch blast.
What issue was the arcane school article? I can't seem to find it, thanks
The issue with doing anything that allows magic missile to assail more targets is how easily to becomes overly powerful due to items (Missile Mastery wand/staff, aformentioned bracers, eagle eye goggles) and feats (from the arcane school article) and paragon paths, the magic missile winds up out doing eldritch blast.
Yeah, Magic Missle was seen as lackluster, and rather than getting an errata, we've been given feats and items that enhance it in various ways. If one did go with a more controller-apropriate variation on Magic Missle, it would make sense to have it /replace/ those kludges, rather than stack with them.
The issue with doing anything that allows magic missile to assail more targets is how easily to becomes overly powerful due to items (Missile Mastery wand/staff, aformentioned bracers, eagle eye goggles) and feats (from the arcane school article) and paragon paths, the magic missile winds up out doing eldritch blast.
Yeah, Magic Missle was seen as lackluster, and rather than getting an errata, we've been given feats and items that enhance it in various ways. If one did go with a more controller-apropriate variation on Magic Missle, it would make sense to have it /replace/ those kludges, rather than stack with them.
I personally love all of the force damage dealing powers from the Wizard class... and I think just the (paragon) option of taking Inescapable Force is all it takes to make it "balanced" with the other at-will power choices.
More missiles at higher levels is one of the two things they changed, the other being the autohit nature of magic missile.
The issue with doing anything that allows magic missile to assail more targets is how easily to becomes overly powerful due to items (Missile Mastery wand/staff, aformentioned bracers, eagle eye goggles) and feats (from the arcane school article) and paragon paths, the magic missile winds up out doing eldritch blast.
What issue was the arcane school article? I can't seem to find it, thanks
374, the actual name (since I am not feeling lazy): White Lotus Academy.
Yeah, Magic Missle was seen as lackluster, and rather than getting an errata, we've been given feats and items that enhance it in various ways. If one did go with a more controller-apropriate variation on Magic Missle, it would make sense to have it /replace/ those kludges, rather than stack with them.
If you were to 'fix' magic missile at least three of the items couldn't be removed (Eagle Eye Goggles, Bracers of Perfect Shot, Master's Wand of Magic Missile) and allowing them in allows for dangerous combos only slightly mitigated by the fact you can't spam it twice a round like you can with the WLA power, but yeah. If you were to bring a fix to the table at the least exclude WLA feats/powers.
The way I see it, all the feats and items that can improve Magic Missile are there on the assumption that Magic Missile will only ever be hitting a single target, hence why it can be used as a ranged basic attack.
The instant that you give Magic Missile the ability to hit multiple targets (like the Invoker's Hand of Radiance from DP) then it no longer qualifies as a Ranged Basic Attack and looses all the spiffy things associated with it.
And no one seems to have noticed that this would eventually turn into an even more overpowered Twin Strike. Even if you removed the +INT to damage, each missile would still end up getting all other damage bonuses. By the time you got even 3 missiles, it would already start doing more damage than any encounter power. The Wizard, a striker is not and we certainly don't need another boring Twin Strike cheese attack.
In the end, everyone is going through all this trouble just out of the nostalgia factor of the Magic Missile of editions past. Here's the solution: Change the name of the spell to "Arcane Bolt" and presto, no more problems.
The way I see it, all the feats and items that can improve Magic Missile are there on the assumption that Magic Missile will only ever be hitting a single target, hence why it can be used as a ranged basic attack.
The instant that you give Magic Missile the ability to hit multiple targets (like the Invoker's Hand of Radiance from DP) then it no longer qualifies as a Ranged Basic Attack and looses all the spiffy things associated with it.
And no one seems to have noticed that this would eventually turn into an even more overpowered Twin Strike. Even if you removed the +INT to damage, each missile would still end up getting all other damage bonuses. By the time you got even 3 missiles, it would already start doing more damage than any encounter power. The Wizard, a striker is not and we certainly don't need another boring Twin Strike cheese attack.
In the end, everyone is going through all this trouble just out of the nostalgia factor of the Magic Missile of editions past. Here's the solution: Change the name of the spell to "Arcane Bolt" and presto, no more problems.
i prefer force bolt, but yeah.
If you were to 'fix' magic missile at least three of the items couldn't be removed (Eagle Eye Goggles, Bracers of Perfect Shot, Master's Wand of Magic Missile) and allowing them in allows for dangerous combos only slightly mitigated by the fact you can't spam it twice a round like you can with the WLA power, but yeah. If you were to bring a fix to the table at the least exclude WLA feats/powers.
I'd think that if you re-did Magic Missle, you'd also re-do the corresponding Master's Wand. As for the items that modify RBAs, the variant MM I posted isn't an RBA, so it's not an issue.
Of course, the RBA feature could be kept, just with the proviso that it can only attack a single target when used that way, making it work just like it does now, in that case.
And no one seems to have noticed that this would eventually turn into an even more overpowered Twin Strike. Even if you removed the +INT to damage, each missile would still end up getting all other damage bonuses. By the time you got even 3 missiles, it would already start doing more damage than any encounter power.
It depends on how it's implemented. If the missles are directed at different targets, it's just a flexible variation on an AE - it can't attack as many targets as a more conventional AE, but they don't have to be tightly grouped. If the missles are directed at a single target, they can just be resolved as a single attack with a single (bigger) damage roll. No Twin-Strike-style issues. Even if you wanted to resolve multiple missles against a single target with sepparate attack rolls, you could still fold them into a single damage roll - 1d4 per missle that hits, all bonuses added only once the the combined roll - at that point, you're even getting close to the classic spell's extreme dependability, since you'd be pretty likely to hit at least once.
In the end, everyone is going through all this trouble just out of the nostalgia factor of the Magic Missile of editions past.
Really, it's no trouble at all...
... and if it wasn't for the nostalgia factor, I would never have played 3.x or 4e, at all.
Hmm... It DOES do about the same damage as a basic ranged attack. Also, reading through the PHB, thinking about the powers, I found a level 17 encounter power called 'force volley'(pg.166), which is, more or less, the old magic missile (up to 3 targets) that I was thinking about. My problem's solved, it was balanced and I don't have to change the rules.
Have you guys looked at the Invoker's at wills?
Tendrils of radiance streak from your fingertips across the battlefield. The beams strike your enemies, raining sparks of light on impact.
At-Will 
Divine, Implement, Radiant
Standard Action Ranged 10
Target: One, two, or three creatures
Level 21: Target an additional creature.
Attack: Wisdom vs. Reflex
Hit: 1d4 + Wisdom modifier radiant damage.
First published in Divine Power.
Just a thought, its what I asked for instead of the wizard's Magic Missile. We just changed Wisdom to Int, and Radiant damage to Force.
Note that this cannot be used as a Ranged Basic Attack and you cannot stack the damage onto a single creature.
True, but with tweeking you could very well have what you want. Just saying that anouther controller has something similar, its not unreasonable to add a twist and call it a wizard's spell : )
so after seeing the articel about wizards of the feywild, how does this alter the OP's attitude (or anyone else's) about finding just the right wizard spell? sure, there is still not an at-will that really emulates the precise nature of what you want, but the three encounter spells that are auto-hit magical force damage are a nice representation of the older magic missle.
Hm... There's a lot more to this than I thought it first I guess. I'm kind of with the Topic Creator.
But that won't stop me from shoe-horning Magic Missile to being Magic Missile again >.>" That fact that I can is part of what's so appealing about DnD.
Hm... There's a lot more to this than I thought it first I guess. I'm kind of with the Topic Creator.
But that won't stop me from shoe-horning Magic Missile to being Magic Missile again >.>" That fact that I can is part of what's so appealing about DnD.
I'm with you on that, what I like about D&D is that I can make it just right for me and my players and there is nothing wrong with that. The trick is to avoid people who say other wise.
Arcane Bolt
Level 3 wizard encounter attack power
Range 10
Target: 1 creature
Effect: the target takes 5 +int +implement enhancement bonus force damage.
Sounds like magic missile to me! and there's an Improved version at 13, and a Greater version at 23. Wizards is on the ball, here!