Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 projectonestar Dec 30, 2009 22:39:17	Hello community! I need some help with coming up with my campaigns main threat. We're playing in Forgotten Realms setting and most of my players are new to D&D; including myself, really. This is my first foray into DM'ing and it's been quite a rocky start. First off, none of the characters have really given me anything for backgrounds or anything like that to go off of, so it's tough to design a threat that's going to really hook these guys into NOT liking it. So far, we've done the Fallcrest adventure in DMG, which I placed near Loudwater in FR. We then did the few quests and delves located in Loudwater in the FR campaign setting book. I've sent them to Waterdeep to speak with Vajra (sp), the archmage, and from there I plan on having her scrye some events happening that basically shows them what the main threat is. I've woven some Cyric ties into the story, too. For instance there is an NPC that, behind the scenes, I know is an Avenger of Cyric. That's just not good enough for my main threat, though. I want it to be an EPIC scale threat. I keep getting the vision of a Cerberus in my head, emerging from the Underdark and tearing wherever he emerges from apart. That just seems mildly too cliche in my head, however. So, without further rambling I present the question of what my main threat should/could be. I really appreciate any and all help that you guys can come up with. From a struggling new DM to a bunch of vets, I say, thank you.
#2 Imruphel Dec 30, 2009 23:13:18	May I ask which of the Loudwater quests and delves did you actually play through? Which NPCs have been significant in your games so far? What is the make-up (alignment/race/class) of the party? If you're planning to have Cyric as your overall theme I would note this: Cyric's basic goal right now is to be freed from his imprisonment in the Supreme Throne. Any followers or agents of his who are in alignment with his perfect will would be looking for ways to free him. I would suggest that there would be a bunch of, for example, Cyricist Zhents around Loudwater looking for old Netherese sites attempting to find magic that would allow Cyric to be freed. Taking this a step further, are you familiar with FR's Creator Races from earlier editions? If not, the short version is this: the progenitors of the yuan-ti and the progenitors of the bullywugs predate almost every other race. Their ancient ruins would contain similarly ancient magic, perhaps a ritual that could weaken the bindings holding Cyric. So, you could see in the lands around Loudwater a clash between the Cyric-worshipping Zhents and the yuan-ti of Najara. Depending on where you're at right now you could have yuan-ti assassins sent to Loudwater to murder Zhent agents (particularly Zhent historians and wizards) that are living there in disguise. The party then has choices: root out the Zhent threat within Loudwater, pursue the Zhents as they head south to Najara and/or root out the nest of yuan-ti assassins. There could also be yuan-ti ruins nearby where the Zhents are currently digging using slaves captured from the lands around Loudwater. This presents another plot: rescue the slaves. These four choices then become four separate adventures. They can be tackled in any order which is great for a first time DM and D&D group: you all get to feel like you're contributing to the story rather than simply being railroaded. As for the Epic threat of Cyric's return, honestly, you don't need to think about that yet. Just use it as background for why the Zhents are doing what they are doing (and perhaps only a handful of Zhent clerics and wizards have any idea about this) and to explain the clash with the yuan-ti, and also with the Netherese because they want the Netherese ruins for themselves. I'm not sure if I have bored you to death yet. If you find anything of value here, I hope you will reply. Feel free to post any questions you might have on what I have written here as I have put some thought into this because I expect to run a campaign just like this at some point, most likely as an introduction to FR. The Loudwater section is a surprisingly good introduction to FR. Don't be afraid to use every little hook you find there.
#3 projectonestar Dec 31, 2009 0:46:30	First off, thank you so much, Imruphel! Truly appreciate the reply. Secondly, heck no that didn't bore me! That was all incredibly informative. As far as the background that I know about Cyric, I have read the Time of Troubles trilogy, as well as Prince of Lies and Crucible. So, that spanned about a decade-ish of early to late 90's Cyric lore. I'm obviously a bit behind but the 4e FR campaign setting book did help me to realize that he is jailed in the Supreme Throne. Which segues into my series of questions: What exactly is the Supreme Throne? I remember clearly what Zhentil Keep is, and I'm also familiar with Najara, but what/where/who is/are Netherese? Having Yuan-ti in the picture works out really well because we actually did the "slaves of Najara" delve/hook. I quote because I can't recall exactly what the hook/delve was called and I don't have access to my book at the moment. At any rate, that would fit in very smoothly because the PC's already have had some impact on that slave ring. As far as the other hooks we've done - Lady of the Shadows (who the PC's promptly killed and cared nothing about the kidnapped children.) The only reason the PC's went to the Zelbros Hideout was because it was on their path west towards Waterdeep. The goblin invasion, which led to the Ogre King delve. I honestly messed up a lot of the actual story involving this one, so basically after the boss fight, I just rewarded the party with a ton of treasure and gold. As far as hooks, that was about it. None of them worked out very well and that was definitely my fault as a new DM. I really didn't put any extra emphasis on doing the actual hooking. For the NPC's they met, I introduced them to Lady Moonfire which at this point in my story is thought to be dead, though she actually is not. I did a lot of fabrication with this part of the story. We have a Tiefling in the group and he wanted to go to the High Forest with her but the other characters wanted to do the Ogre king questline. The Tiefling was doing some horrible role playing with her in the forest and basically everybody got sick of it, so I had a Troll come through and basically tear her to shreds. Though what he doesn't know is that Lady Moonfire was never there with him; it was a decoy all along. The PC's are being sent to Waterdeep to speak with Vajra about the Lady's "disappearance" - or so they think. That's when I planned on having them be introduced to the main threat of the campaign, but I actually rather enjoy your idea of having them be shown the dispute and/or struggle going on with the Zhentish priests and the Yuan-ti. Continuing with the NPC's, they met Curuvar, but he didn't really do much except for explain the totems to the PC's. The biggest NPC that I'm trying to weave into all of this is Sunsteen. Again, with a lot of homebrewing on my part, he is the Avenger of Cyric, though the characters do not know this at the current time. The PC's will be entering Waterdeep in our next session next Wednesday. So that's roughly where they are right now. I think I'll leave it at that for now and see what you've got to say to all of that. Again, thank you very much for the assistance.
#4 Imruphel Dec 31, 2009 2:04:19	Imruphel! Truly appreciate the reply. Secondly, heck no that didn't bore me! That was all incredibly informative. You're welcome. I wasn't sure if my reply was too much. I actually wrote up some ideas along those lines earlier this year and clearly they will still fresh in my head. As far as the background that I know about Cyric, I have read the Time of Troubles trilogy, as well as Prince of Lies and Crucible. So, that spanned about a decade-ish of early to late 90's Cyric lore. I'm obviously a bit behind but the 4e FR campaign setting book did help me to realize that he is jailed in the Supreme Throne. I must admit I am trying to blot out some of the Spellplague-related nonsense but, essentially, Cyric got jailed for murdering Mystra. Actually, that wasn’t the silly part: the silly part was the love triangle involving Tyr, Sune and Helm. If you don’t know about it, please accept my recommendation to ignore it in good faith. ;) What exactly is the Supreme Throne? That’s Cyric’s home plane. I remember clearly what Zhentil Keep is, and I'm also familiar with Najara, but what/where/who is/are Netherese? The Netherese now are the Shadovar or Shades from the new Empire of Netheril. They have their own sections in the FRCG. Originally, the Netherese were a magic-rich empire of flying cities over what became the Anauroch desert. Their magic was much more powerful than the magic that exists today which is why their ruins are a good place to search for rituals to free Cyric. If you want more details the Forgotten Realms wikia is probably a good place to start. Suffice to say that the Netherese in 4E are Shar-worshipping humans. Having Yuan-ti in the picture works out really well because we actually did the "slaves of Najara" delve/hook. I quote because I can't recall exactly what the hook/delve was called and I don't have access to my book at the moment. At any rate, that would fit in very smoothly because the PC's already have had some impact on that slave ring. Cool. I was hoping that was the case. I would put the PCs on an adventure back towards Najara pursuing yuan-ti slavers but have them come across the Zhents instead. Heck, the yuan-ti operated a slaving ring beneath Waterdeep (cf Skullport for FR2E) so the presence of yuan-ti in Waterdeep makes sense, too. Hmmm… why not use a group of yuan-ti assassins in Waterdeep as a hook to draw them back toward Najara and/or Loudwater? After all, they disrupted a slaving ring and the yuan-ti are logically going to attempt to take revenge (and this is great for a new group too because they can see the logical consequences of their actions). As far as the other hooks we've done - Lady of the Shadows (who the PC's promptly killed and cared nothing about the kidnapped children.) The only reason the PC's went to the Zelbros Hideout was because it was on their path west towards Waterdeep. The goblin invasion, which led to the Ogre King delve. I honestly messed up a lot of the actual story involving this one, so basically after the boss fight, I just rewarded the party with a ton of treasure and gold. As far as hooks, that was about it. None of them worked out very well and that was definitely my fault as a new DM. I really didn't put any extra emphasis on doing the actual hooking. No worries. I would have tied the goblins to the Zhents and thrown in a Zhent agent that is attempting to recruit the goblins but, if you missed the opportunity to do this, no big deal. I’ve covered off the Waterdeep angle in my previous reply about yuan-ti assassins. Unless you have a specific reason for them going to Waterdeep, I would actually send them back to Loudwater/Najara and surrounds as soon as possible because sometimes it’s easier with a new group to run them through small dungeons and ruins rather than running a city-based adventure (and perhaps that would be easier for you also as a new DM?). For the NPC's they met, I introduced them to Lady Moonfire which at this point in my story is thought to be dead, though she actually is not. I did a lot of fabrication with this part of the story. We have a Tiefling in the group and he wanted to go to the High Forest with her but the other characters wanted to do the Ogre king questline. The Tiefling was doing some horrible role playing with her in the forest and basically everybody got sick of it, so I had a Troll come through and basically tear her to shreds. Though what he doesn't know is that Lady Moonfire was never there with him; it was a decoy all along. The PC's are being sent to Waterdeep to speak with Vajra about the Lady's "disappearance" - or so they think. Ok, if they go back to the High Forest may I suggest that they find a creator race ruin being explored by yuan-ti, Zhents and/or agents of Netheril. It’s a nice way to start unveiling the overall story without overloading them at low levels. That's when I planned on having them be introduced to the main threat of the campaign, but I actually rather enjoy your idea of having them be shown the dispute and/or struggle going on with the Zhentish priests and the Yuan-ti. Continuing with the NPC's, they met Curuvar, but he didn't really do much except for explain the totems to the PC's. The biggest NPC that I'm trying to weave into all of this is Sunsteen. Again, with a lot of homebrewing on my part, he is the Avenger of Cyric, though the characters do not know this at the current time. I really love the idea of an avenger of Cyric as an NPC and BBEG. Yeah, the struggle between the Zhents and yuan-ti provides a lot of room for adventure. Throw in the Netherese as well and you might find your players come up with some really novel ways to play the groups off against each other. The PC's will be entering Waterdeep in our next session next Wednesday. So that's roughly where they are right now. Cool. Do you have any plans for adventures in Waterdeep? The yuan-ti assassin idea might be a bit clichéd but it’s also a great introduction to city-based adventuring… and then links them back to the main plotline. I think I'll leave it at that for now and see what you've got to say to all of that. Again, thank you very much for the assistance. You’re most welcome. I love threads like this. I wish more people posted about their adventures and campaigns. It makes a nice change from the usual snarkiness on these boards.   Good luck with your game: hope to read more.
#5 projectonestar Jan 01, 2010 21:11:05	The ideas you've given me are absolutely fantastic. I think I might have figured out how to lure at least one of my players into the hook absolutely:      He is an Eladrin Rogue and has been asking, or sort of hinting at the fact that he wants to visit Myth Dranor. Well, if memory serves, that's nestled right in between Netheril, Zhentil Keep and Najara! It works out perfectly. I forecast some sort of disaster striking Myth Dranor soon... I'm thinking about doing a role swap portion on Wednesday to increase the excitement a bit. Here's what I've got so far:      I've created 5 Underdark characters that the PC's will be playing as in the next session. As soon as Vajra scryes the events going on, I'm going to describe the 5 Underdark characters and then hand them all character sheets that I've written up for them. Basically, I'm going to let our Warden tank play something more striker oriented and have our strikers play tanks and healers, etc. Mix things up. I'm thinking now that the dungeon that these Underdark PC's will be in will be near or directly underneath Myth Dranor. I want them to be performing a ritual that goes awry, unleashing doom upon the nearby surface and perhaps a more larger scale. I want to do something with Kezef the chaos hound. I think I might have the ritual unleash him on the material plane. Even though he doesn't necessarily enjoy living flesh, most of my players don't know that, and I don't mind bending the lore a bit. As far as Waterdeep goes, I don't plan on having the campaign be a city campaign at all, really. They're simply going there to speak with an NPC and be on their way. I think, if any city, Waterdeep would make a great entire campaign setting. With the Underchasm right there, and the sewers and everything, the city has dungeons galore. And like you said, and I agree, I think running more dungeons and ruin type adventuring is more to all of our liking. At least for now. I've read up on Netheril in the 4e FRCG and I'm much more clear on that area now. There was/is a temple devoted to Cyric there. Anyhow, excited to see what you've got for me next time!
#6 Imruphel Jan 02, 2010 2:53:17	Hi projectonestar, I'm glad you're enjoying my ramblings! ;) Myth Drannor, you say? Well, that's a completely different part of the Realms with its own flavour. I'm actually planning to start my next campaign there. Anyway, just a quick comment on Netheril: remember that worship of any deity other than Shar is prohibited. It's your game, of course, but think about what it means if you change this. (Although I think the idea of Cyricists being part of underground movement trying to disrupt the Empire of Netheril is a great idea. The FRCG mentions the Bedine Sand Kings who stand against Netheril. Perhaps they're not so heroic after all- they're pawns of various Cyricist strifeleaders and Zhents. Hmmm... that actually dovetails nicely into an idea I have for a campaign set in and around Elturgard... but I digress). If the party is going to Myth Drannor, I suspect you need three things: 1. a reason to go there; 2. a route to follow; and 3. something to do when you get there. I really like the idea of having the players play other characters to illustrate another event. It's something I've been meaning to do for years but haven't done so... yet! Now tying that back to the three things you "need" for Myth Drannor, I would suggest something like this: 1. A REASON TO GO THERE Vajra (I had to look her up- I see she is the new Blackstaff) has scried on these NPCs and wached Kezef be released. Actually, why not make these NPCs emissaries of the Cyricist Sand Kings I mentioned above and have this encounter take place in the tunnels and caverns beneath Anauroch? That way you're still tied into the "Cyric wants to escape his imprisonment" hook. I think at this point Vajra would want more information. The best place for that is to seek out the ghost-seer Lady Saharel who inhabits Spellgard which is a nice segue into the Sceptre Tower of Spellgard adventure if you have and, more importantly, if you want to run it. Whether you use SToS or not, the next step is to go to Myth Drannor because more information can be found there. 2. A ROUTE TO FOLLOW One of the best things about 4E is that travel magic is not so powerful or pervasive. That means you can do something that I have always wanted to do in D&D and have a long overland journey on horseback or on foot. Even if you send them to Spellgard first, send them back to Waterdeep with something that Lady Saharel gave them for Vajra. The reason for this is that there is an actual road from Waterdeep to Myth Drannor marked on the 4E map and that makes planning out your adventure for the journey so much easier. Looking at the map and the various places en route, I must admit to being quite excited by the adventuring possibilities on the way. I would read up on each country that the group is travelling through and try and give them something of the flavour of each place in the encounters you choose. As for random monsters and whatnot en route, may I suggest using skill challenges between cities. A success or failure in the skill challenge translates into the strength of the subsequent encounter. Basically, look at the XP foregone by failing the skill challenge and then use that XP as the XP budget, or to add to the XP budget, of the subsequent encounter. This method lets you maintain the XP awards no matter what (if that is important to you). 3. SOMETHING TO DO WHEN YOU GET THERE So that the party start with the favour of various "movers and shakers" in Myth Drannor, let them come across the scene of an orc (?) attack on a small elven settlement in the Dalelands and then let the party be key to the defeat of the orcs. When reinforcements from Myth Drannor arrive, the settlement's leader speaks well of them to the captain. That recommendation plus the letter from Vajra that they are carrying will ensure that they are well received. At this point, the news that the party has brought has been brought to the attention of the high mages. The party are asked to participate in a high magic ritual so that the elves can see the scrying for themselves. The players may be thinking that you're simply going to repeat the initial scrying sessions but, instead, something about the primordial chaos and evil of the Chaos Hound draws the party into an unnatural dream where they are in the same caverns as before but end up fighting a manifestation of Kezef themselves! Of course, the manifestation is scaled down to be a solo threat suitable for the party. At this point, I would drop the Chaos Hound hook until the party reaches higher levels and the divinations of the elven high mages show that the party are foretold to be able to defeat Kezef. Now it's a matter of deciding what to do next. Obviously, there are lots of adventuring opportunities in Myth Drannor. You have the threat of the Shadovar from Netheril, the Zhents from Zhentil Keep, ancient imprisoned demons and the Warlock-Knights of Vaasa who are stirring up trouble around the Moonsea. Personally, I would probably send them off to Zhentil Keep next to find an old Cyricist site with information about the Chaos Hound. So, anything useful for you this time? ;)
#7 projectonestar Jan 02, 2010 8:01:28	Hi projectonestar, So, anything useful for you this time? ;) Of course! haha... I would love to run the SToS adventure, actually. I'm not sure what level range that is for; I think it's 1 - 3. Unfortunately for that, I did some powerleveling of my group already and they're 5 as of right now. Not that it means I couldn't scale the encounter up, but I'm not sure if that would be too time consuming. See, with Myth Drannor, I'm more using that site as a way to really hook one of my characters. In fact, now that I think of it, two of them are Eladrin, so they both should want to defend their stock in that area when I drop the carnage from the scrying pool on them. Yes...I'm thinking this a better and better fit the more I talk about it. I'm thinking definitely I'll use the chaos dream sequence now once they reach Myth Drannor. And heck traveling from Waterdeep to MD should gain them at least a single level, probably more like two levels of XP with all the traveling. This might put them at 7 by that point. It would work perfectly if my climax gets built up around the paragon transition. Hmm...Thoughts, thoughts, thoughts... Anyhow, after they end up there, it would kind of be like I'm using Waterdeep, and be more of a springboard to more events leading around MD. Particularly the Ruins of Zhentil Keep. =) Yes, I read that wrong, or just simply forgot when I said there was a Cyricist temple in Netheril. It was a collapsed outpost on the outskirts of Anauroch, which admittedly, I know nothing about. It's looking to be shaping up pretty nicely now, due lots to your help. Lemme know what you've got scheming now. For me, it's off to work....
#8 Imruphel Jan 02, 2010 11:28:07	Cool. I must admit, I am really looking forward to when I can run a campaign that involves Myth Drannor and the ruins of Zhentil Keep. Like I said, maybe my next campaign. And, yeah, it's good that your not runnign SToS. It's a reasonably good adventure (for WotC, at least... adventures have not been their forte since 2E) but the journey from Waterdeep to Myth Drannor has so much potential that why waste time on a published adventure? Have you thought about what to do with a paragon transition? Perhaps the ritual that the not-PCs did released a really weak version of the Chaos Hound but there is a ritual taking place beneath the ruins of Zhentil Keep that will strengthen the Chaos Hound that much more. Oh, and the party fails to stop it. That way the paragon tier can be about them fixing their mistake. ;) However, that might not work for every group. Hmmm, where will the Chaos Hound go in the paragon tier? Maybe Elturgard would be a good place? Lots of divine stuff there and maybe it can eat the artificial sun? If you decide to use this, make sure you have a meaningful Elturgard encounter as the party are en route to Myth Drannor. They can then call upon this relationship later when they go to put a stop to the depredations of the Chaos Hound. My current game has really only just started. It is set in Akanul for something different. I have pretty much sketched out the first adventure that will take the party from levels 1-4. It involves an awakened gelatinous cube cleric of Ghaunadaur which can, thanks to aboleth brain-grafts, absorb the memories of those it devours. It can also devour selectively so it keeps the heads and then extrudes those heads from its mass so it can sing songs of madness. It's the final encounter and I really hope I can make it horrific rather than just weird. The adventure is a simple kidnapping plot that ends in the cube's lair (a corrupted earth node which also contains the heart of an imprisoned primordial) but which leads to the next two adventures which are, more or less, the Savage Tide adventure path but compressed into two adventures that will take a party from level 4 to level 11 and give them their own ship... and let them fight pirates, dinosaurs and possibly even a King Kong knock-off on an Isle of Dread/Skull Island rip-off. Of course, the King Kong movie didn't include an aspect of Demogorgon at the end but I do have that at the end of my adventure but that's largely because I have the miniature... and I like the Savage Tide adventure path. I'm not 100% sure what will happen in the paragon and epic tiers yet. I do know that under King Kong's island are slumbering aboleth that need to be awakened. I also know that the ultimate BBEG is The Eldest, the leader of the Abolethic Sovereignty and that one of its plots involves unleashing Pandorym to wipe out all of Toril's deities (except for Cyric... who is safe in his prison which is why he also behind this horribly derivative but nefarious plot). I'm sure we will see Ghaunadaur-worshipping drow, stone giant sorcerers, psionic blue dragons, a bluespawn godslayer birthed from the mind of Pandorym but the body of an ancient blue dragon and a general rip-off of the plot of the 2E boxed set A Night Below. And the final battle is likely to take place in the floating city of Xxiphu against The Eldest of the Abolethic Sovereignty. (I love aboleth!) While the above precis may sound a little chaotic, it's actually quite well organised between my notes and my head. It's a different sort of campaign for me but I am trying to stretch myself in 4E. I spent so much time with 3.xE doing stats that I neglected to give my NPCs personality and character so I am working on that with this campaign. And I also want my PCs to have a ship and just wander around for a while because that's something I (and they) haven't done before. Anyway, thanks for the opportunity to throw some ideas at you and your campaign. Again, I just wish there were more of these threads on these boards.
#9 sandman104 Jan 02, 2010 20:48:18	I'll make this short, Just start everything over. I know that sounds really bad (not to mention it's ignoring your question) but as a DM who was a beginner not long ago I think it's the best advice. You guys havn't gotten that far in your campaign but they don't have backstories, and I'm guessing there is little to no roleplaying. The first time you play a campaign you are mostly learning the ropes. I think you and your players have all learned what to do and the best would be to start fresh. Once you start over you'll be surprised how much better your players roleplay, how much more fun there is and how much more complex your world is. As for a main villian check out books, movies and tv shows for the best inspirations. The best villian is a villian that is scary and absolutely powerful. The key is that he shouldn't take himself seriously or he'll seem like he's got a stick up his butt. Hope this helps and good luck!
#10 Imruphel Jan 03, 2010 4:08:43	Yes, but that's not what the OP asked. I actually think it's better to exhaust the current campaign first so that everyone in the group is ready for a change. I would also argue against your ideas on a main villain: that's fairly generic advice and the comment "absolutely powerful" is absolutely wrong. What you want for a main villain is not absolute power but goals, a motivation for those goals, a means to achieve those goals and the consequences of the villain's success or failure. Sure, "books, movies and TV shows" will provide some inspiration but, IME, what you are looking for is a villain with purpose so that the villain has a reason for being a villain and a way of expressing that villainy beyond simply wanting to twirl his moustache while kicking puppies and emitting CO2. ;)
#11 projectonestar Jan 03, 2010 22:44:21	First off, Sandman, thank you for your ideas and considerations. I really do appreciate all angles. Secondly, I don't think I'm going to start over. lol... I want to try out everything here with this campaign, and if I fail, all the better because this is simply my first foray. Honestly, so far everyone in the group is really liking it. They all wait very anxiously for the next session to start. Every single person is a long-time friend of mine, too, so I feel they would let me know if something sucked, or was just simply no fun.  Lastly, Imruphel, where would you suggest to research a bit more of these progenitors? The more I pine that over, the more I like that concept of "ancient magic." Thanks again, guys! =) P.S. Cyric, ftw as my villain.
#12 Imruphel Jan 04, 2010 3:37:24	Projectonestar, The creator races included the sarrukh (the reptilian progenitors of the yuan-ti, naga, lizardfolk etc... as best described in 3.5E's wonderful Serpent Kingdoms but also covered in 4E's FRCG) and the batrachi (progenitors of all things "froggy" including the bullywugs and slaadi [the latter being "ascended" bullywugs in FR canon]). They were first mentioned in either 1E's The Savage Frontier, I think, but it was by Paul Jaquays at any rate. Anyway, with the mention of the sarrukh as a creator race you can see why I mentioned Najara in my original questions to you. Their origins go back at least 30 millenia. So the Zhents would be looking for creator race sites because of the ancient magic they are likely to hold (in my 3.5E campaign set in the Silver Marches I actually had the original creator race magic as pre-Weave and Shadow Weave but that's not important, obviously, in a 4E game). Fortuitously for the Zhents and for your campaign, there is a canon site not far from Loudwater covered in an excellent Eric Boyd article on this website: www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/mc... I thnk you could have fun expanding that into a larger adventuring site and the primeval magic of the place gives you lots of excuses to throw weird stuff at the party! OK delete "weird stuff" and replace with "interesting terrain features". ;) The sarrukh were also the creators of the Nether Scrolls which, inter alia, provided all the keys to magic. That might be a worthwhile goal for the Zhents to pursue. Maybe there is a key in there to allow Cyric to be released? Should you decide to run the campaign from Myth Drannor instead the mountains between Myth Drannor and Netheril there was, as recorded in 1E's Lords of Darkness, a sarrukh creator race ruin located there guarded by a lizardfolk mummy, IIRC. Anyway, Serpent Kingdoms should have more info on that. (By the way, I'm not suggesting that any campaign should be held hostage by canon. I just love using these little bits from past books because I live in hope that, one day, one or more of my players will DM a game in FR and find out that the stuff their characters did was rooted in FR's canon history.) Myth Drannor actually held the Nether Scrolls but I cannot recall what happened to them. That may have been covered in Rich Baker's excellent Last Mythal trilogy but I stopped reading during the first book because I wanted to run my own version of the same story and haven't gone back to read them again. Personally, I love the idea of Zhents looking for ancient magic that might free Cyric. It's got Indiana Jones overtones: the Zhents are like the Nazis looking for occult objects. It also gives you a good and logical reason as a DM to throw the Zhents at any part of the map. Anyway, I hope in all that rambling there are some ideas that you think are worth exploring.
#13 grumpycelt Jan 05, 2010 11:21:41	I need some help with coming up with my campaigns main threat. Well, he needs a long curly moustache, a monocle, a black cowboy hat, a naihair wizards robe and dancing shoes. His goals should include conquoring the moon and banishing to the Elemental Choas all the kittens in the world.
#14 projectonestar Jan 05, 2010 12:15:44	His goals should include conquoring the moon and banishing to the Elemental Choas all the kittens in the world. lmfao... Thanks for the input!
#15 grumpycelt Jan 05, 2010 23:31:25	lmfao?