Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 stupidjedi Jul 15, 2008 14:05:02	Here is my attempt at adding some variety to wounding in 4E. Please PEACH. Some of this was inspired by Star Wars Saga and my own ideas: Every character has a Damage Threshold equal to his Fortitude Defense + Size Modifer (+5 large, +10 huge, +20 gargantuan, +50 colossal) or 1/2 his total hit points, whichever is less. When a single attack deals damage that equals or exceeds the character's threshold, the character suffers a Major Wound. A character who suffers a Major Wound is dazed until the end of his next turn. Each major wound also causes 2 ongoing damage per round (save ends). Each Major Wound gives a character a -2 penalty to all attack rolls, defenses, ability checks, and skill checks. A character with three or more Major Wounds is slowed and weakened. Whenever a character spends a healing surge or an action point, he can ignore all penalties and conditions from any Major Wounds he has until the end of his next turn. As part of an extended rest, a DC 15 Heal check can remove one Major Wound. Only one Major Wound can be removed per extended rest. Divine Healing powers or rituals that grant a Healing Surge can remove a Major Wound, but must do so in place of recovering hit points. Thoughts?
#2 theninjad Jul 15, 2008 14:19:30	I suppose it makes sense though it could be called unbalancing. I don't think that is really your concern with this, though. This is probably just what you're going for.
#3 stupidjedi Jul 15, 2008 14:31:01	I suppose it makes sense though it could be called unbalancing. I don't think that is really your concern with this, though. This is probably just what you're going for. Admittedly, characters with divine healing powers will be able to recover from Major Wounds more quickly, and perhaps this is a problem. But I don't really see a way around it unless you stick with the rules as written.
#4 doomsought Jul 15, 2008 14:49:40	an attempt to get away from the all powerful metagamyness of 4ed. You may want to look into D20 modern, it has balance, and it isn't metagame based.
#5 inferiae Jul 16, 2008 12:11:48	My only major concern is that a couple of powerful hits at the start of a fight can leave a character nearly useless for the rest of that encounter. If the encounter was a challenging one to begin with, this can be a quick TPK, as the group is now short a person fighting difficult foes. Also, as one acquires Major Wounds, it is easier to acquire more. This set up will make Brute type enemies more of a threat to the PCs, since they generally do a ton of damage when they do it. If using this system, I would be careful when using Brutes that are higher level than the PCs.
#6 zerosanity Jul 23, 2008 18:49:46	My only major concern is that a couple of powerful hits at the start of a fight can leave a character nearly useless for the rest of that encounter. If the encounter was a challenging one to begin with, this can be a quick TPK, as the group is now short a person fighting difficult foes. Also, as one acquires Major Wounds, it is easier to acquire more. This set up will make Brute type enemies more of a threat to the PCs, since they generally do a ton of damage when they do it. This could actually be balanced fairly easily. Major wounds occur only when both of the following conditions are met: 1) A single attack deals damage greater than or equal to (fort defense + size modifier) or bloodied value (whichever is lower). 2) That attack is a critical hit. This still makes brutes more likely to inflict major wounds, but it's not so certain as to ensure that at least one PC is wounded per difficult encounter that has a brute. An additional thing that I picked up from Deadlands, and/or some other book of some sort (sorry for the vagueness), would be to have 6 wound areas: Left leg (1), right leg (2), left arm (3), right arm (4), torso (5), and head (6). The numbers in parentheses indicate the result of a d6 die roll upon recieving the wound. The penalties for each area are as follows: Leg: Make an immediate save or fall prone. -2 to your move speed per major wound, as well as -2 to athletics, acrobatics, and stealth checks per major wound. -1 to Ref defense per wound Arm: -1 to attack and damage rolls per wound (even for casters, who probably have to do some sort of pointing or some other somatic action as part of their spell) and a -2 to any skill check that requires the use of a wounded arm. -1 to AC per wound Torso: ongoing damage equal to half your healing surge value (save ends), and dazed until the end of your next turn. You may make an immediate save to avoid being dazed. -1 to Fort defense per wound Head: Dazed (save ends), Stunned until the end of your next turn (you may make an immediate save to avoid being stunned), -1 to Will defense per wound, and -2 to skill checks based on Int, Wis, or Cha per wound. Notes: if you aquire a third wound to any one area, make an immediate save at +4. If you fail, you lose that limb if it's an arm or leg, take ongoing damage equal to your healing surge value (save ends) if it's your torso, or drop to 0 hit points if it's your head. (srsly, 3 really powerful crits to the head. sucks to be you). This is actually an idea I've been toying with for a while, but haven't gotten around to actually banging out the mechanics for. As a note, I just popped those effects off the top of my head and eyeballed them as far as balancing them goes. Feel free to critique them at your leisure. =)
#7 ariasilverhands Jul 23, 2008 22:15:59	I modified the system shock rules posted by Mearls on his blog. See my signature for a link.
#8 Neutronium_Dragon Jul 23, 2008 22:21:43	It also suffers from the same problem as most of those proposals: The only healing which helps is divine, thereby pushing the game back to "every party needs a cleric" and shoving the warlord out of the picture (since his martial healing is useless for this).
#9 zerosanity Jul 24, 2008 7:02:26	It also suffers from the same problem as most of those proposals: The only healing which helps is divine, thereby pushing the game back to "every party needs a cleric" and shoving the warlord out of the picture (since his martial healing is useless for this). I would actually change this so that any power that lets you spend a healing surge would work, not just divine healing. That's just me.
#10 generalhenry Jul 24, 2008 7:07:42	Every character has a Damage Threshold equal to his Fortitude Defense + Size Modifer (+5 large, +10 huge, +20 gargantuan, +50 colossal) or 1/2 his total hit points, whichever is less. if you're taking that kind of damage... you're already in plenty of trouble.
#11 aquilis Jul 24, 2008 8:37:23	This could actually be balanced fairly easily. Major wounds occur only when both of the following conditions are met: 1) A single attack deals damage greater than or equal to (fort defense + size modifier) or bloodied value (whichever is lower). 2) That attack is a critical hit. I really like your take on the major wounds zero, but I think the imbalance would arise in the amount of times a character can be "majorly wounded" as opposed to the amount of times a creature can be majorly wounded, if the conditions above are used. I think its safe to say that one of the characteristics of 4e combat is the heroes fighting large numbers of enemies, thus the existence of minions. With this in mind, think of how much more likely it is that you will be crit as opposed to how likely a monster will be crit. There are significantly more attack rolls against PCs than against the monsters. For example, during Shadow Fell Keep, I was crit 6 times (1 encounter), a ally of mine was crit 5 times (also 1 encounter) and I'm fairly certain we never had more than 3 crits against monsters combined (a party of 3). If you are in an encounter where you are fighting a large or larger creature, then you are most likely not going to be facing minions, or at least not an abundance of them, but then because of size bonus and the fact that they are most likely a heavy hitting brute, it will be quite easy for them to inflict major wounds before your inflict major wounds, especially if they are getting lucky with recharging powers (for those enemies that have them). So yes, this system is something that applies to both PCs and Monsters, but keep in mind, the amount of times these wounds occur against PCs/Monsters should be balanced.
#12 generalhenry Jul 24, 2008 9:18:04	the amount of times these wounds occur against PCs/Monsters should be balanced. ...no in each fight 99% of the monsters die and 1% of the PC die. monsters don't have a long term. imo this is a general fix to a specific problem. It would be better to use a specific fix. The problem is making PCs fear monster attacks. The monsters already have reasons to fear damage, they can't heal (for the most part). And PCs dealing big hits don't need to be any more effective. So to put wounds into the game, give BBEG powers that wound.
#13 zerosanity Jul 24, 2008 19:18:45	I really like your take on the major wounds zero, but I think the imbalance would arise in the amount of times a character can be "majorly wounded" as opposed to the amount of times a creature can be majorly wounded, if the conditions above are used. The balancing factor is that, not only do you have to be critted, you ALSO have to take enough damage to receive a major wound. It's not an either/or situation. I think its safe to say that one of the characteristics of 4e combat is the heroes fighting large numbers of enemies, thus the existence of minions. I doubt, since minions deal static damage, that any minion will be able to inflict a major wound on a PC. Let's look at, say, level 1 characters. Assuming a difficult encounter (L+3), the most difficult minion you'll be fighting is the orc drudge, which deals a static 5 damage. 5 damage isn't enough to inflict a wound. It's not possible, especially since a crit with a minion is only an automatic hit. With this in mind, think of how much more likely it is that you will be crit as opposed to how likely a monster will be crit. There are significantly more attack rolls against PCs than against the monsters. I will agree with you that based on sheer statistics, assuming a standard distribution of rolls, party members are more likely to get wounded. That's sort of the point though. I'd be using this rule almost exclusively in more survival type or gritty campaigns in which the game is designed less for traditional dungeoneering and bandit-slaying and more on surviving zombie-pocalypse, or a more realistic war campaign. For example, during Shadow Fell Keep, I was crit 6 times (1 encounter), a ally of mine was crit 5 times (also 1 encounter) and I'm fairly certain we never had more than 3 crits against monsters combined (a party of 3). How many of these crits would have inflicted a major wound? Were you taking really heavy enough damage each time to have a wound inflicted? I should hope not, or there's some planning/tactics issues, or just plain unfortunate rolls on the behalf of the party and super-lucky rolls on the behalf of the DM. If you are in an encounter where you are fighting a large or larger creature, then you are most likely not going to be facing minions, or at least not an abundance of them, but then because of size bonus and the fact that they are most likely a heavy hitting brute, it will be quite easy for them to inflict major wounds before your inflict major wounds, especially if they are getting lucky with recharging powers (for those enemies that have them). Again, that monster is probably only going to be attacking once or twice per round, unless it has an AoE ability. Even then, there's only a 5% chance for it to crit you, and if it's an AoE, it's probably not going to have the highest damage output of the monster's powers. So yes, this system is something that applies to both PCs and Monsters, but keep in mind, the amount of times these wounds occur against PCs/Monsters should be balanced. I'm thinking that, to balance out the distribution a bit, just make it a static thing equal to your bloodied value for PCs, and fort defense + size mod for mobs. That still feels a bit off somehow, though.
#14 zerosanity Jul 24, 2008 19:24:35	The problem is making PCs fear monster attacks. The monsters already have reasons to fear damage, they can't heal (for the most part). And PCs dealing big hits don't need to be any more effective. I agree to an extent. I do think it'd be neat, though, to reward that fortuitous axe swing that takes a notch out of the dragon's skull, especially if that same dragon can burn part of your arm to a crisp. Adds some extra excitement. So to put wounds into the game, give BBEG powers that wound. As a complete side note, what exactly does BBEG stand for? I know what it means, just not its exact definition. To respond, though, why can't a Human Guard spear you in the leg, thus injuring the leg?
#15 griffonwing Jul 24, 2008 21:28:38	As a complete side note, what exactly does BBEG stand for? I know what it means, just not its exact definition. I think it's Big Bad End Guy
#16 aquilis Jul 25, 2008 7:46:23	The balancing factor is that, not only do you have to be critted, you ALSO have to take enough damage to receive a major wound. It's not an either/or situation. I apologize; I completely misread this and was under the impression that it was an either/or situation. On that note, the system doesn't seem broken, atleast not at the lower levels. Most of my arguments were based off of the assumption that a crit would automatically grant a major wound. I wonder though, how it would hold up in higher levels where monsters/PCs can crit more easily (19 or 20) or for more damage with +N weapons.
#17 zerosanity Jul 25, 2008 15:39:50	I apologize; I completely misread this and was under the impression that it was an either/or situation. I thought maybe you'd misunderstood it, but I didn't want to assume. =) I wonder though, how it would hold up in higher levels where monsters/PCs can crit more easily (19 or 20) or for more damage with +N weapons. That's a point I hadn't considered.I'll mull that one over in my brain.
#18 unrealgeek Jul 26, 2008 7:16:21	I actually house-ruled in a wound thing. As a player. What it was is that my warlock cast Hellish Rebuke, then broke her own leg. My house rule? Took two healing surges and until then, I was half-speed. Main Principles:KISS, and Logic works here.