Please let me know what pitfalls you all can see in this and if there is anything I may have overlooked in this concept.
Two variants I've heard is to just give minions 2 HP, and use coins to represent them on the map; they simply go from Heads to Tails to Dead, with a critical hit being and instant kill, or
Minions get a saving throw every time they suffer damage; if they fail, they die, if they don't, they're still around.
A zone that does damage every round, ongoing damage, multiple attack powers, those are all dependent on the definition of a source.
Another thing is that minions are supposed to be like chips, you can't kill just one.
It defeats part of the purpose of minions, that part being the ability to use a decent sized horde of monsters without having to do a lot of bookkeeping by recording hit points.
I disagree about the bookeeping being the purpose of minons having 1 hp, to me it is to represent the movie style of combat where the hero wades through many foes to reach the BBEG. For me the added effect of minions actually playing a role in the tactics of combat (which you can see in movies so it is not violating the concept) by adding this type of house rule is warranted.
Two variants I've heard is to just give minions 2 HP, and use coins to represent them on the map; they simply go from Heads to Tails to Dead, with a critical hit being and instant kill, or
This variant is basically my suggestion, but my suggestion does not limit it to the possability of only 2 hp in case the DM wants to for some reason.
Minions get a saving throw every time they suffer damage; if they fail, they die, if they don't, they're still around.
This could work as well, however it adds an extra dice for the DM to roll, seems like more work than the bookkeeping, also the minions would not be consistant and that would create more confusion for the players than I would want.
Mostly things like defining a source.
A zone that does damage every round, ongoing damage, multiple attack powers, those are all dependent on the definition of a source.
a source would be identified similarly to how a resistance would be defined. Hence ongoing damage is dealt each round.
Another thing is that minions are supposed to be like chips, you can't kill just one.
Where is this from? What prevents a character from killing more than one minion in a round other than placement on the battle field.
I mean if you want an enemy that isn't popped in one round, then get a normal enemy. And the reason again, why you're seeing minions get obliterated in groups is because that's what they're designed for. I think its been mentioned but enemy placement can help in reducing the number of minions that get wiped in an area attack from a controller or whomever. But again why not just put a couple regular enemies in combat instead of a handful of minions.
Aside from that I guess if you insist on having minions that really aren't minions, I would say the easiest method would just be to have them have 2 HP, or just simply needing to take two hits to kill instead of one. That way even if a player lays down a burst that hits all the minions, they're still around to maybe peck at a player or two before getting smeared across a player's weapon.
1) Don't bunch them up
2) Use replenishing minions. I've only done a handful of encounters with minions in which I didn't have more minions enter the fight midway, and I've never done what I would consider a "boss" battle without infinitely spawning minions.
I find it ironic that you call a saving throw bookkeeping, there isn't any bookkeeping to it; while giving it hit points, does.I like to throw armies of minions at my players (think 20+). rolling a save for those who gets hit, is easy - opposite notnig each one to how many damage he gotten (and where their location is ...)
In my Guide To Disreality, you can find multiple fixes.
I find it ironic that you call a saving throw bookkeeping, there isn't any bookkeeping to it; while giving it hit points, does.I like to throw armies of minions at my players (think 20+). rolling a save for those who gets hit, is easy - opposite notnig each one to how many damage he gotten (and where their location is ...)
Actually in my comment I said that rolling extra dice is more work than the extra bookkeeping of adding HP. I use masterplan and run my encounters using an overhead projector shining down onto our table. As such the hardest thing for me is remembering not to just apply the damage and instead to just remove the one HP. I use temp HP to add the extra HP I give minions. So not really more bookkeeping.
Actually in my comment I said that rolling extra dice is more work than the extra bookkeeping of adding HP. I use masterplan and run my encounters using an overhead projector shining down onto our table.
I'll have to disagree with you there. for you, it might be more work, but almost non of us use an overhead projector.
For most of us, keeping score for 20+ creatures is more work then rolling a d20 when they get hit.
Actually in my comment I said that rolling extra dice is more work than the extra bookkeeping of adding HP. I use masterplan and run my encounters using an overhead projector shining down onto our table.
I'll have to disagree with you there. for you, it might be more work, but almost non of us use an overhead projector.
For most of us, keeping score for 20+ creatures is more work then rolling a d20 when they get hit.
The system I suggest is like the one that someone else spoke of with using coins for minons, as they are hit they turn over from heads to tails and from tails get removed. This solution requires no bookeeping. If you are using minis, you can place the coin under the mini and as it is hit raise the mini and flip the coin.
The main problem I have with the save is it is slower than putting a check by a number on a paper, or flipping a coin. Plus it is random, meaning that players tactics are negated. It is not my intention to have minions be as strong as a standard monster and stick it out though the entire combat, only to survive long enough to get at least one action (since most PCs have so many boosts to init that they will go before the minons usually).
Heck with surprise rounds and a high init it is possible they could never act, however that also means that my BBEG will be able to start doing things and not get hurt so much that he is dead by round 2 or 3.
The main driving force behind this idea is that, in my game specifically, I am noticing that combats are over far too quickly (using appropriate encounter building rules), this is due to good tactics on the player's side (which is good), and that the number of monsters I can place in an encounter is limited by the XP I want the encounter to give. Minions are supposed to be the filler to help bolster the numbers of the enemies, however if they are negated in a surprise round action, they may as well not been there at all.
I have minions respawn. If I am including minions in a fight. EX: the boss of the fight yells to the next room and some gaurds come running, skeletons reassemble until the necromancer is killed, a firepit spawns fire elementals until knocked over, mage summons imps.
Lets players have the joy of wading through hordes of dudes laying waste, while still having to worry about the "Minion" for the entire fight. As soon as the fight ends, the minions stop.
This came about because my players were launching "Fireball" style effects and catching most minions in them right away at the start of every encounter. Then having a fight against one or two dudes.(I've become lazy with 4e, and don't even plan things, just use prebuilt encounters/adventure paths with rubber masks, so its hard to "Spread them out more")
I have minions respawn. If I am including minions in a fight. EX: the boss of the fight yells to the next room and some gaurds come running, skeletons reassemble until the necromancer is killed, a firepit spawns fire elementals until knocked over, mage summons imps.
Lets players have the joy of wading through hordes of dudes laying waste, while still having to worry about the "Minion" for the entire fight. As soon as the fight ends, the minions stop.
This came about because my players were launching "Fireball" style effects and catching most minions in them right away at the start of every encounter. Then having a fight against one or two dudes.(I've become lazy with 4e, and don't even plan things, just use prebuilt encounters/adventure paths with rubber masks, so its hard to "Spread them out more")
I had considered this idea, however that means I need to track how many minions are spawned and add the appropriate XP to the encounter which was built to award a specific amount. I am not looking to distort the XP award by either leaving off XP of a minion or having to add to the amount I wanted to award.
I had considered this idea, however that means I need to track how many minions are spawned and add the appropriate XP to the encounter which was built to award a specific amount. I am not looking to distort the XP award by either leaving off XP of a minion or having to add to the amount I wanted to award.
No, you don't.
First of all, screw XP. I haven't given out XP since way back in AD&D. If they don't get the XP from a handful of minions, oh well.
Secondly, I believe there's an infinite minion spawning trap, and it just counts as an elite of the minion's level, so if you need to worry about XP, there you go.
I had considered this idea, however that means I need to track how many minions are spawned and add the appropriate XP to the encounter which was built to award a specific amount. I am not looking to distort the XP award by either leaving off XP of a minion or having to add to the amount I wanted to award.
No, you don't.
First of all, screw XP. I haven't given out XP since way back in AD&D. If they don't get the XP from a handful of minions, oh well.
Secondly, I believe there's an infinite minion spawning trap, and it just counts as an elite of the minion's level, so if you need to worry about XP, there you go.
At level 11 (I don't have the books in front of me so am not sure about all levels) minions are supposed to be worth 100 XP each. As for the trap, I had not known of it, and after seeing your message I looked on the compendium but could not find it without knowing the name or at least the book it came from. Can you remember either of those pieces of info?
Yes, but where do you mark? do you remember the location of minion 17 after 2 rounds of battle?
> Plus it is random, meaning that players tactics are negated.
Damage is random. does that mean that players can't use tactics at all? (the save represents a virtual hit point number)
> It is not my intention to have minions be as strong as a standard monster and stick it out though the entire combat, only to survive long enough to get at least one action (since most PCs have so many boosts to init that they will go before the minons usually).
Players want to go before minions ... and you look up a variant rule with the specific intent to counter your players strategy? ... Why is granting a save is negating tactics and your intentions aren't?
> The main problem I have with the save is it is slower than putting a check by a number on a paper, or flipping a coin.
Yes, but where do you mark? do you remember the location of minion 17 after 2 rounds of battle?
The minis could be marked with the number, or you could use the pogs that WOTC sells which are numbered for you, that is not a factor of the issue in my mind as it is easily overcome.
> Plus it is random, meaning that players tactics are negated.
Damage is random. does that mean that players can't use tactics at all? (the save represents a virtual hit point number)
Damage is random but not when it applies to minions, not even with the alternate system suggested. Therefore inserting a random element is a fundamental change to the makup of the battle.
> It is not my intention to have minions be as strong as a standard monster and stick it out though the entire combat, only to survive long enough to get at least one action (since most PCs have so many boosts to init that they will go before the minons usually).
Players want to go before minions ... and you look up a variant rule with the specific intent to counter your players strategy? ... Why is granting a save is negating tactics and your intentions aren't?
A save is only possabily negating the strategy because of the 55% chance that no matter how much damage they do the minon won't die. In the suggested option, the minion is guaranteed to die after no more than 2 hits (unless the DM gives the minion more than 2 hp - which would be held for very special situations). Therefore the players can continue with the combat and plan tactics. Again the purpose of this is just to ensure that the minions get at least one action, where the save in some cases does not even give that or in others gives way more than just one action.
In my mind the save option would lead to players having to fight minions for much longer on average, meaning that the role of the BBEG is lessened, definately not the intent.
I did like the idea of the minion spawing trap as an alternative, but it would not work in all cases. For those that it does however it would be a preferable solution.
If the player for some reason chooses to use a vs. one creature encounter power on a minion, I make it an autokill, as well as critical hits.
This keeps 4 to 5 minions around for a few rounds without slogging down the encounter time.
A minion that can suffer 3 or 5 hits is going to be a normal enemy, and, as such, should be replaced with a standard monster.
If your players want this, I mean, go for it. Just ramp up the XP you hand out for it.
I had considered this idea, however that means I need to track how many minions are spawned and add the appropriate XP to the encounter which was built to award a specific amount. I am not looking to distort the XP award by either leaving off XP of a minion or having to add to the amount I wanted to award.
Oh...you still use XP? I dropped it way back. (like early 3rd edition) I strongly recommend it. (We level when the players ask to, but everyone does it a little different)
Thats not really the issue though. You are here complaining that minions don't add enough to a fight to justify their inclusion in your encounters. I am suggesting letting the minions respawn every so often, aka buffing the minions. Award the standard XP you would normally give for the fight, and simply pretend that the respawn minions are worth as much xp as normal minions.
The consensus, such as there is, is that your playstyle determines which version is best for you. If you use numbered tokens for minions, two-hit might be the way to go. If you can't stand bookkeeping, saving throws are the only real way to do it.
Both have their drawbacks: yes, saving throws have a small chance of never ending, and yes, two-hits are a biznatch to track.
My personal favorites are a one-hit minion that can make a saving throw to avoid autodamage (and only autodamage), and a 2-hit minion that dies instantly if it takes damage above a threshold (I like Con score + (level x 2), but your mileage may vary).
One good way to reduce the bookkeeping for 2-hits is to have two sets of minis you use for minions. Start with one set; when a minion gets bloodied, swap its mini for one from the other set. Like the coins thing Salla mentioned, but a little more visually intuitive.
Oh, and don't forget that the printed XP values for minions above Heroic tier are actually incorrect. DMG2 says that minions should be worth 1/5 as much as a standard in Paragon tier, and 1/6 as much in Epic.
One last thing: if you don't like save-to-survive because it might let minions live too long, then you really shouldn't use a plain two-hits system without some kind of instant-kill condition. If a minion never dies on the first hit, then a rogue could crit with a daily and still not kill it. And that's crazy.
The consensus, such as there is, is that your playstyle determines which version is best for you.
I agree play style is the key to many of these decisions as a DM
One last thing: if you don't like save-to-survive because it might let minions live too long, then you really shouldn't use a plain two-hits system without some kind of instant-kill condition. If a minion never dies on the first hit, then a rogue could crit with a daily and still not kill it. And that's crazy.
I saw previous posters who suggested that when someone used a encounter or daily power which solo targeted the minion that it would fully kill in one hit, I hadn't said so but I agreed with that thought because of the amount of resources that was used in performing that attack.
Both have their drawbacks: yes, saving throws have a small chance of never ending, and yes, two-hits are a biznatch to track.
I was thinking about that. and this problem has a simple fix: common sense (if you, as DM notices that a minion is lucky ... fudge its next roll )
Also,
I saw previous posters who suggested that when someone used a encounter or daily power which solo targeted the minion that it would fully kill in one hit, I hadn't said so but I agreed with that thought because of the amount of resources that was used in performing that attack.
Personally, I think asking people to solo-target a minion with an encounter power is a bit excessive. Actually spending an entire standard action to kill a minion is already enough of a sacrifice. Plus, a rogue's at-wills are often more damaging that a fighter's encounter powers.
I wonder... what if the instant-kill condition was "you use an attack power and target only this creature"? You'd be able to pop a minion by spending your entire standard action on it, which I think is a pretty fair trade. Or maybe that only applies to at-wills and encounters, and dailies always instakill.
Personally, I think asking people to solo-target a minion with an encounter power is a bit excessive.
I was not even suggesting that there was a request being made to players to use encounters or dailies on them with solo targets. I was meaning that if they chose to, either because they didn't know it was a minion or because of some other reason, that due to the lack of being able to repeat the attack that it would be able to single shot them. It is not a matter of volume of damage nor is it about the action type used, it is solely the repeatability of the action that is the determining factor. Therefore should a dragonborn have the feat "Focused Breath" a close blast 1 is basically a single target, and it is an encounter power, therefore I would allow the attack to single kill a minion. It did not matter that it was a minor action to do.
I wasn't trying to imply that you personally wanted PCs to use their encounter powers on minions. I really didn't mean to give you that impression.
What I meant was that I think it's already a big sacrifice for a PC to spend his entire action on a single minion. That's an whole round that could have been spent dealing with a more serious threat. And while the PC kills that one minion, the other minions are free to do as they please. Taking an entire encounter power on top of that seems like too much.
In other words, your action budget in a round is also a kind of resource. Repeatability isn't the only criterion to consider.
Also, there are a lot of encounter powers that come down to something like "Make a basic attack, and also daze the target." That sort of power does really interesting things to standard creatures, but against a minion it's kind of a waste because you'll never get to use the daze.
C'mon Qube, I know you know the Oberoni Fallacy. (For those who don't: the fact that a rule can be changed does not excuse the rule's flaws.)
no, I wasn't breaking the oberoni fallacy (I never said there wasn't a problem with 'save or die'. I agree that there is a problem. I was suggesting a fix.), I would actually add it as part of the rule.
- minion gets damaged --> gets a save or die, unless the DM decides the minion has lived long enough
AFAIK there's no easy way to keep how many attacks a minion has had. and letting it live to near-immortality is just redicoulus. Thus I was thinking of an alternative.
For example, minions don't receive a save anymore after a set number of rounds (for example after round 3, they die instead of getting a save), or if there are less then 2 minions.
Basically, the point is the people want minions to have some use. So DMs tend to give them ways to let them live longer. Well, my suggestion is to make 'm stronger till they've reached their objective; and then revert them to their weak selves...
which I think is a pretty fair trade.
I'll have to disagree. many/some powers have the hidden line "this power autokills minion" (new magic missle, cloud of daggers, ... any power with effect damage).
The problem with many of the existing houserules is that these forget that, and thus by using such a houserule, these powers lose their use ...
--A crit
--A damage type the goon is vulnerable to
--ANY encounter or daily power that deals ANY damage at all (a damaging miss only bloodies a goon)
--Any extra striker damage
It lets strikers strike and certain classes shine against monsters they're supposed to be good at killing (divine PCs vs. undead). And it's not uncommon for us to use encounter powers, and even dailies, to bring down goons when it looks strategically promising. Just last month our monk wiped out a half dozen goons using his tornado-something daily power; the fight went from being "Oh sh!t, this is gonna get worse before it gets better" to "Dam, we're good!"
Okay, end shameless plug.
