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| #1Xeviat-DMFeb 02, 2009 6:11:10 | It's been almost a year now with 4E, and as a DM I absolutely love it. As an amateur designer, though, I find 4E's power system to be difficult to work with; since I want to make my own classes for my setting, 4E's power system requires me to create a lot of material. Worse still, I've been noticing weird things that 4E's power system encourages. Action Points are often used early in fights, Daily powers are typically better to use early in a fight, and once encounter powers are out the fights become boring slug fests where only at-wills are thrown around. 4E's definitely spoiled me, since I used to be used to everyone falling back on "basic" attacks for the majority of fights (even casters, though it wasn't until later in the day that they busted out the old crossbow). There's elements of the power system that I just don't find realistic. A 1st level Fighter can trip once per encounter if and only if they choose Sweeping Strike as their 1st level Encounter power. The opportunity to trip will never again come up in that encounter, unless they have some kind of magic item to refresh encounters. So, long story short, I came up with a possible alternative to the Encounter/Daily power format. First off, action points need to be changed back to what they used to be: add 1d6 to a d20 roll. Then, action points need to be given out frequently; anytime something really good or really bad happens. Action Points are then used to power Encounter powers, and your list of known encounter powers can be used as you choose (like 3E sorcerer spellcasting). Daily powers operate with a pool as well, but you can only use one daily power per fight, and you can only use a daily power while you are bloodied. This way, daily powers are saved till later in a fight, and they come out when the chips are down. I have no idea if this is balanced, or if it could be balanced. But I think it would be a more exciting and cinematic method of running powers. Thoughts? |
| #2ShedeoFeb 02, 2009 6:52:00 | Oh, trust me. I feel your pain on the design side of the problem. Onto the meat and bones here, however, I had thought about doing something like this as well, although I'll admit, I had tried to come up with a balanced method of "Spell Points" for use in the system. It didn't work. This on the other hand... Might. Although I will say that I much prefer the new Action Point system over the old. The old one was very... Bland to me. Didn't feel like action points, just felt like any other ability. Now, Action Points feel like something I pull out when I need it. Six on one hand, half a dozen on the other, however. Regardless, I think that the dailies would basically work out like so, and if this is the way you think as well, great! You prettymuch get a "pool" of dailies. So at level 5, your pool is 2. You could use 2 of the same, 2 different ones, etc. I like that its 1 daily/encounter, and only while bloodied. However, either way, perhaps you could spend an action point to activate your second daily in the encounter? Granted, that would work better with 4e's action point system than 3rd's... But 4e's doesn't allow for the activation of encounter powers the way that we like. Hmm. |
| #3NovacatFeb 02, 2009 8:12:06 | It's been almost a year now with 4E, and as a DM I absolutely love it. As an amateur designer, though, I find 4E's power system to be difficult to work with; since I want to make my own classes for my setting, 4E's power system requires me to create a lot of material. Have you considered, instead of designing full-blown classes, perhaps making Secondary Classes, similar to the Spellplague in Faerun. Just make a couple powers of each level, and a small bonus for multiclassing into it. Worse still, I've been noticing weird things that 4E's power system encourages. Action Points are often used early in fights, Daily powers are typically better to use early in a fight, and once encounter powers are out the fights become boring slug fests where only at-wills are thrown around. 4E's definitely spoiled me, since I used to be used to everyone falling back on "basic" attacks for the majority of fights (even casters, though it wasn't until later in the day that they busted out the old crossbow). No, action points are not always best spent at the beginning of combat, in fact, if you're just spending it to get a burst of damage in the first round, you probably don't NEED it for the fight anyways. But yes, most dailies give you the most bang for your buck if you use them first, but you don't always know at the beginning of combat if you're going to need them. It's a strategy thing; deciding when you're going to need to use a daily, and doing it early enough to make a difference. There's elements of the power system that I just don't find realistic. ORLY?! A 1st level Fighter can trip once per encounter if and only if they choose Sweeping Strike as their 1st level Encounter power. The opportunity to trip will never again come up in that encounter, unless they have some kind of magic item to refresh encounters. Imagine this... the fighter's tripping power is a tricky maneuver that's easily countered if you know it's coming. It can be done once in a single combat, because after that, the enemies know how to avoid it. If the fighter performs a distracting maneuver first, however (recharges the trip), he may be able to pull it off again. So, long story short, I came up with a possible alternative to the Encounter/Daily power format. First off, action points need to be changed back to what they used to be: add 1d6 to a d20 roll. Then, action points need to be given out frequently; anytime something really good or really bad happens. Action Points are then used to power Encounter powers, and your list of known encounter powers can be used as you choose (like 3E sorcerer spellcasting). I would be extremely wary of changing something that's so deeply ingrained into the system. Be aware that this will affect the performance of all Paragon Paths, some Epic Destinies, and Humans. Daily powers operate with a pool as well, but you can only use one daily power per fight, and you can only use a daily power while you are bloodied. This way, daily powers are saved till later in a fight, and they come out when the chips are down. This is bad. This is very bad. There are several reasons that come to mind, but alas, I don't have time right now to list them, as I need to scoot off to work. |
| #4Xeviat-DMFeb 03, 2009 4:48:13 | Why would it be bad to let people trigger their dailies 1/encounter? The game is designed around 3 to 5 encounters a day, and a 9th level character has 3 dailies; a 20th level character gets their 4th. I've ran numerous games at low level; our premade is at 4th level now, and I've also run 2 games that only included 1st and 2nd level. I've also ran a 20th level game that went for two full game days (4 encounters each day), and I have to say that early levels are absolutely boring compared to high levels. Having only one daily a day, having to metagame to a small degree to know when to use your Daily (oh, this is our 4th encounter, better use your daily), and quickly having to use the same at-will over and over again (poor fighter who had cleave and tide of iron often fell back on basic attacks because neither were useful in several situations) made low levels boring compared to high levels. As for the trip power, I speak from experience. It isn't realistic to me because I've been in enough fights to know that it is wholly possible to throw someone to the ground multiple times without having to take a 5 minute breather in between. This is a reason that I advocate for bringing back combat maneuvers like Disarm and Trip, but that's a different topic entirely. |
| #5emwasickFeb 03, 2009 6:58:53 | RE: Dailies only at bloodied Wizards would take it hard this way. Conjurations would only be available for half the fight. Flaming Sphere is kinda crappy if you can't clear out minions right away and keep using it to attack all encounter long. AoEs are bad this way too- allies will get hit a lot more and fewer enemies will be alive, leading to much less damage per attack (except for all the friendly fire ).Martial characters would also lose a lot. Stances are often best used early. Some fighter dailies provide a mark that lasts all encounter long. This effect wouldn't be very good anymore. Divine characters also have a lot of encounter-duration daily buffs. These would similarly drop in value. In fact, encounter-duration buffs and stances might all turn into traps. If the PCs are bloodied, the enemy is also likely to be close to death. It's much better at that point to smack someone with a few big-damage dailies than to buff and get a few rounds of bonuses. Why not just end the fight? Low Constitution characters would become a little more likely to die. For one thing, there would be an incentive to enter a fight bloodied in order to use certain abilities that are best used early. For another, the decrease in initial firepower and control would lead to more damage all around. There would also be a *huge* incentive to let yourself get bloodied in order to activate daily power uses! In general, a lot of daily powers are meant to be used early in a fight. Some are at least equally useful later in a fight. But this change would likely be a big nerf to a lot of abilities. Some of the changes you're considering might just create slightly different flavors. This one in particular might force you to do a lot of rebalancing work. For example, I don't know if exempting buffs and stances from the bloodied rule would be much help, since you'd then make those powers even better (and some are near the top of the list already). You'd probably have to rethink most of the daily powers in the game. |
| #6zhavricFeb 03, 2009 9:27:44 | There's elements of the power system that I just don't find realistic. A 1st level Fighter can trip once per encounter if and only if they choose Sweeping Strike as their 1st level Encounter power. The opportunity to trip will never again come up in that encounter, unless they have some kind of magic item to refresh encounters. For me, it's Come and Get It. For some reason, I just can't suspend my disbelief for that power. How does a fighter get stuff to crowd in around him like that... especially if the things he's fighting aren't intelligent? Why does the ooze using tremor sense come shifting over? |
| #7neechenFeb 06, 2009 19:36:39 | I certainly see how a long fight could become a boring slugfest, but I wouldn't change the power system. What I would do is change creature reactions so that fights don't go on too long. Many times, I will have creatures run if they get bloodied. Only the most vicious ones will fight on. I also like the idea of making bloodied PCs and creatures more vulnerable to damage (unless they are really tough). This tends to end fights before they become a slugfest. I also see how it is a pain to design new classes for your own world...I wish I could respond to that, but maybe that's part of Wizard's plan - make designing full classes labor intensive so everyone waits with bated breath for Player's Handbook 2 and other world supplements. |
| #8emwasickFeb 06, 2009 19:47:57 | Making your own stuff isn't too bad, once you get started. I just finished heroic tier for my first homebrew class. I thought it might be painful, but once you get into it and develop a few themes, things just fall into place. It helps a lot to look at existing classes and simply use their powers +/- a little bit and with different fluff, levels, and frequencies. The important thing is that you always keep a mental picture of how the class plays out in game- as long as you do that, the powers shouldn't feel generic, even if they are really similar to what another class does. |