Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 levgre Mar 11, 2011 4:34:35	I'm going to be running a 4th edition campaign soon (a traditional world setting with core 4.0 books).  In my playing experience so far I've found poison to be lacking, just another type of ongoing damage that lasts until a saved roll, nothing distinguishable except resistances. i've watched documentary shows where people get poisoned, so I am aware (as many others probably are) that it can be one of the most dangerous common substances encountered in the natural world.  It has one goal, to incompacitate/kill quickly.  Tiny snakes and scorpions can kill a grown human, and in DnD the scorpions can be human sized!  (although, oftentimes the bigger creatures DO have the weaker poison, but that can be offset by more venom injected). Now, my goal isn't to have poison be THAT deadly, staunch realism is often less fun.  But I think poison should be scary and dangerous, and different from other ongoing damage that can be immediately stopped with a save.  It doesn't make much sense that PCs can just save to immediately stop the poison from ravaging their system. In my brainstorming I thought of something like this for mechanics... 5-20 ongoing damage in combat, and saves for less damage.  The 20 poison would obviously be amongst the most deadly poisons, and the main weapon for the monster.  There would also be a strong bonus to the save if a person focused on relaxing/stabilizing(combat = blood circulation = helping the poison).  With a decent endurance the save could be automatic. The poison would also not leave after combat.  Real poison can attack the body for many hours, so poisons would have durations from minutes to days.  However after a certain time period(immediately after the encounter, 15 min, 1 hour, etc.) the poison would damage at a reduced pace.  Poisoned weapons would also be significantly less potent than a a creature's bite.. since it's a lot less volume.  Maybe a bit of ongoing damage that can be saved against, and some adverse penalties for being woozy and such. To offset this danger, anti-venoms would be the solution for poison.  Players could buy anti-venoms in stores, for relatively common creatures in the area it would be pretty cheap.  Hence with preparation, certain poisons could be even less scary than under normal rules.  Or after combat, a player with nature or heal skill could create an anti-venom from the slain monster's venom.  This would also be a potential loot boon, since many anti-venoms can only be created from the venom itself, rare monsters would create even rarer anti-venoms. I'm still going to think about the mechanics more, if anyone has any input on concept or mechanics I'd be glad to hear!
#2 fugacityfixyoursite Mar 11, 2011 10:14:59	I'd leave combat mechanics alone or you might screw up the game balance. If you want to layer on more deadliness I'd use the Disease Track system. Just invent Disease Tracks for the various poisonous creatures as you come across them and attach them to their bite or stinger attacks. Disease btw works that, if hit by the disease element, after an encounter you roll a saving throw to see if you catch the disease. After that Endurance and Healing help people recover from the disease. This mirrors poison a bit better since most venomous creatures ingect their entire poison load at once then have to recover, so it's a bit more of an encounter power thing.
#3 Centauri Mar 11, 2011 12:38:13	Now, my goal isn't to have poison be THAT deadly, staunch realism is often less fun.  But I think poison should be scary and dangerous, and different from other ongoing damage that can be immediately stopped with a save.  It doesn't make much sense that PCs can just save to immediately stop the poison from ravaging their system. Then don't imagine that that's what's happening. Just as hit point loss doesn't always mean damage, the lack of hit point loss doesn't always mean no damage. There are a lot of other effects in the game. If the character who saved against the poison subsequently misses, or rolls low damage, or fails a skill check, or gets hit by an attack any of those events could be attributed to the poison in the character's system. I'm still going to think about the mechanics more, if anyone has any input on concept or mechanics I'd be glad to hear! I suppose you could make it a skill challenge. The PC has to make X successful Endurance checks, but he can only roll the checks once a day unless someone else makes a Heal check or a knowledge check based on the PC's race or the type of creature that delivered the toxin. Throw in History or Thievery if you want if it's a manufactured poison. Whatever. Failure means that the PC feels the same effects one gets for being resurrected.
#4 levgre Mar 11, 2011 17:15:03	Now, my goal isn't to have poison be THAT deadly, staunch realism is often less fun.  But I think poison should be scary and dangerous, and different from other ongoing damage that can be immediately stopped with a save.  It doesn't make much sense that PCs can just save to immediately stop the poison from ravaging their system. Then don't imagine that that's what's happening. Just as hit point loss doesn't always mean damage, the lack of hit point loss doesn't always mean no damage. There are a lot of other effects in the game. If the character who saved against the poison subsequently misses, or rolls low damage, or fails a skill check, or gets hit by an attack any of those events could be attributed to the poison in the character's system. . Well, I'm not imagining anything because that IS what currently happens, in basically all cases poison is only ongoing damage which is saved against to completely stop.  I appreciate your suggestions though, adding status effects is a good alternative/supplement to damage.
#5 Rustmonster Mar 12, 2011 15:43:10	I'm going to second Disease Tracks. It is THE way in 4E to represent ailments that last longer than "End of Encounter".
#6 bone_naga Mar 19, 2011 19:59:22	I also vote for the disease tracks.
#7 Scottevil912 Mar 24, 2011 10:24:08	Even as ongoing damage, poison can be pretty effective - unless someone or something performs an action to allow the person a save (and they make it) or some type of cure poison is used, the target is going to take the damage at least once (since the damage is done at the beginning of the turn and the save is at the end.) Past that, I think the disease track is a great idea too.
#8 dave2008 Mar 24, 2011 14:52:47	You could try requiring a Heal check to end the ongoing poison damage instead of a saving throw.  This would imply that you actually did something and would require an action.  You can adjust the DC for the Heal check based on how deadly the poison. I also like the disease track idea and they could be combined for in combat and out of combat effects.  Thus, the Heal check is used to stabilize and allow you to continue fighting, but you still need to deal with the continued effects (disease track) of the poison in your system.
#9 mercaius Mar 25, 2011 16:57:02	Alternatively, you might try something similar to the petrification rules for faster-acting encounter poison. Replace petrified with a fever-like catatonic condition that renders the character effectively unconscious until treated, and ultimately results in death if the condition is not removed shortly after combat. An unlucky character is "as good as dead" in a few rounds, and effectively dead if the party lacks the means to treat her poison, but a well-prepared party should still be able to save the player in time. Of course, this idea might require some more practice and tweaking than the simple disease-track route.
#10 MechaPilot Mar 25, 2011 20:05:05	I think the previous posters have really hit on the right way to do this, but it's worth exploring a bit.  My first question is what do you seek from posions?  Do you want them to be more deadly in combat?  Or do you want them to have a lasting effect beyond the encounter? If you want the posion to have an effect that persist beyond the poisoning encounter, then a disease track is probably the best way to go because it was built for long-term effects. If you want the poison to be more effective in combat you will need to be very careful with regard to balance.  Remember that a creature that relies on poison to kill usually hav very weak physical attacks.  Very often, a venomous creature either strikes and runs away while the venom does it's thing (like a snake), or strikes and grapples/incapacitates while the victim deals with the poison (like a spider or scorpion).  If you're going to ramp up the damage of poison to be more realistic, then you should drop the damage of the creature's other attacks or trade that damage for control effects. As for a truly deadly in-combat poison, the petrification example (3 failed saves before death) is an apt one to follow.
#11 blacksheepcannibal Mar 27, 2011 18:53:56	I'm seeing two things that might be added in here. A lot of poisons aren't just "ongoing 5 poison (save ends)". They're "blinded and ongoing 5 poison damage (save ends both)" or "dazed and ongoing 5 poison damage (save ends both)". It's very sensible and easy to add another status effect to an ongoing poison effect. It doesn't make as much sense to have "stunned and ongoing 15 fire damage" unless it's a magical spell that does both. Another thing that I have thought of (I haven't used it yet, but I'm planning on it) is the disease track mechanic, but instead of every extended rest, require a check to move up or down the disease track every short rest instead.
#12 dave2008 Mar 28, 2011 19:58:37	Another thing that I have thought of (I haven't used it yet, but I'm planning on it) is the disease track mechanic, but instead of every extended rest, require a check to move up or down the disease track every short rest instead. That is an interesting idea.  I think I might give that a try as well.
#13 MechaPilot Mar 28, 2011 20:27:14	Another thing that I have thought of (I haven't used it yet, but I'm planning on it) is the disease track mechanic, but instead of every extended rest, require a check to move up or down the disease track every short rest instead. That is an interesting idea.  I think I might give that a try as well. It is a good idea, but it should probably depend on the poison.  If you want an instantaneous poison, it will be dealt with in combat.  If you want a fast acting poison, it will be dealt with by checks at every short rest (although I think it might be more appropriate to make it at every rest, that way players don't side-step the effects by choosing to take an extended rest).  And if the poison is a long-term affair, then it will have a check at each extended rest.
#14 Centauri Apr 19, 2011 14:28:34	Sorry, for some reasons I only just got the email notification of this reply. Now, my goal isn't to have poison be THAT deadly, staunch realism is often less fun.  But I think poison should be scary and dangerous, and different from other ongoing damage that can be immediately stopped with a save.  It doesn't make much sense that PCs can just save to immediately stop the poison from ravaging their system. Then don't imagine that that's what's happening. Just as hit point loss doesn't always mean damage, the lack of hit point loss doesn't always mean no damage. There are a lot of other effects in the game. If the character who saved against the poison subsequently misses, or rolls low damage, or fails a skill check, or gets hit by an attack any of those events could be attributed to the poison in the character's system. Well, I'm not imagining anything because that IS what currently happens, in basically all cases poison is only ongoing damage which is saved against to completely stop. You are imagining something. You are imagining that when the poison is doing damage to someone it is in their system, and when it stops doing damage to them it is out of their system or has been neutralized. Outside of some kind of magic, that's clearly nonsense. A poison is going to take more than a matter of seconds to run its course, so saving against ongoing poison damage probably doesn't mean that the poison is gone. There's no fixed answer to what it does mean, so we're free to imagine things that make more sense (at least in a fantasy setting), such as a hardry dwarf gritting his teeth, shaking his head, and fighting through the effects of the poison. It's still in his system, and the play can blame later bad rolls on this fact, but in game turns it's done and doesn't need to be explicitly tracked.   I appreciate your suggestions though, adding status effects is a good alternative/supplement to damage. That is not what I was suggesting.
#15 ToeSama Apr 23, 2011 18:42:17	...in basically all cases poison is only ongoing damage which is saved against to completely stop... What? There are plenty of powers that have the poison keyword that don't do ongoing damage, or even poison damage for that matter. Poison is a damage type as well as an effect, and the poison keyword takes both of those shapes in different ways. An effect such as weakened or stunned due to a poison power is likely to be a poison effect, with all the drawbacks and benefits of such status included. D&D is only 40% mechanics in practice. The remaining 60% is imagination and creativity. You don't need to have poison be any more scary in a mechanical fashion than fire or necrotic damage and effects are. What you're suggesting unbalances game play. That being said, changing the way mechanics function is fine. You can have some particularly nasty monsters have poison related aftereffects once the PCS have saved against them (such as weakened, slowed, or even another turn of poison damage despite), but don't make poison more than it is already. D&D characters arn't like you and me. They're extraordinary in every sense of the term. A bit of scorpion venom is generally just going to piss a fighter off and little more, even if that scorpion is the same size as he is. To put the fear of poison into that fighter, have him face a nest of the buggers instead.