After almost 2 years of 4e, I've noticed how unapealing Powerswap feats became. Sure, they looked good on paper at first; and given the feats we had when it was all PHB1, they may have actually been great.
Now, neither I nor anyone in my gaming group really considers the Powerswap feats anymore. Save the rarely ocasional Utility power, I never see anyone taking those feats; and why would they? With so many great feats to choose from that so greatly enhance your effectiveness, it's almost pointless to waste a feat slot for a Powerswap.
The Solution
Given the large number of really good class feats, my idea to make powerswap an interesting option again is the following:
"When you choose the power, you also choose a class feat from the power's class. You gain the benefit of that feat during the use of this power."
How about Oak Hammer Rage? That daily is totally nuts. If I could get that on an Avenger, I would. I mean seriously, no Strength-based double-wielder in your group ever considered poaching Ranger for Attacks on the Run?
So no one even considers poaching Rain of Blows or Storm of Blades or something like Avalanche Strike? What Fighter Encounter 1 deals as much damage as Avalanche Strike?
How about Oak Hammer Rage? That daily is totally nuts. If I could get that on an Avenger, I would. I mean seriously, no Strength-based double-wielder in your group ever considered poaching Ranger for Attacks on the Run?
I think the feat cost is higher than you think. That feat isn't Weapon Proficiency (+1 damage for each [W] for all powers), it isn't Expertise (+1 to hit, for all powers). It isn't a racial feat that seriously pumps an encounter power, it's not a class feat that helps you do your job.
It's a power swap. For a power that's better... but that's two other feats you had to pass on. And that's expensive (until you're at high paragon, usually).
I think when 4e was initially released, feats were not that valuable. Since then, lots of good feats and "feat taxes" have been published, and the cost of a feat has gone way up.
I think when 4e was initially released, feats were not that valuable. Since then, lots of good feats and "feat taxes" have been published, and the cost of a feat has gone way up.
Exactly. If you limit yourself only to the PHB1 feats, going for full powerswap actually looks like a good idea. Now, it's a waste as you'd usually be much better off spending the feat slots on improving your own effectiveness than trying to mimic another class'.
So, the idea is to not loose so much for choosing a powerswap feat. Anyone else got any ideas to improve?
If you want to limit it, you could limit it to superfluous class features (like Swordbond, Ritual Caster, Song of Rest, etc), and have a list of which features could be traded out for, and the number of features you could trade out. That way you wouldn't have a Paladin with Oath of Enmity, Sneak Attack, and a Shadow Walk walking around.
As for trading powers, I would just have it work like Hybridizing, where you can just take powers from either class when you gain a level, but you have to have an even number for each class.
...
Basically, I would make a sort of cross between MC and Hybrid. On the one hand, you'd have no feat tax (like Hybrid) but you wouldn't lose the vast majority of your class features and have to deal with ANOTHER feat tax to get them back (unlike hybrid).
1. Weapon Proficiency doesn't grant you +1 damage to all your powers. Weapon Focus grants you a scaling damage modifier for using with a weapons group. This is nice, but not all that necessary.
2. In some cases, the improvements are fairly significant. Before Weapon Expertise, MC feats were practically must-takes. With the improvement of power selection with the release of all the new books, the value of Power Swap feats has gone with greatly. Have you actually tried looking? Methinks you haven't. Some of the new powers and MC feats are just downright juicy.
3. There aren't that many good feats. Expertise is nice, but if you lead with the primary stat, it's a wash every 4 levels (and you can always retrain, remember). For instance, if you're a crossbow wielder, you get Superior Crossbow and... ....what else? Expertise is nice enough, but you already got +1 from Weapon Prof. More is nicer, but not absolutely necessary. On the other hand, if you're a Crossbow using Rogue, your selection of powers is rather limited. Dipping into the Ranger powers is absolutely competitive against Weapon Focus and Weapon Expertise.
As another example, take Greatweapon Fighter. He already has Fighter Weapon Talent, so he's already a leg up. If he leads on Strength, Weapon Expertise on other Fighters is washed at levels 4 to 7. He can be MORE accurate, but he can afford to multi-out for Avalanche Strike or Curtain of Steel, I'm thinking. Past that, you can retrain the feat to replace a 9th level daily for Oak Hammer Rage, and the MC feat itself gives you +2 damage on top of Weapon Focus for 1 entire encounter once a day, as well as providing the extra skill training.
It's practically overpowered.
kilpatds:1. Weapon Proficiency doesn't grant you +1 damage to all your powers. Weapon Focus grants you a scaling damage modifier for using with a weapons group. This is nice, but not all that necessary.
The average difference in DPR between a martial weapon and an equivilent superior weapon is +1 per [W]. Fullblade vs. Greatsword(d12 vs. d10. And High-crit for extra). Execution Axe vs. Great Axe(Brutal 2). Mordenkrad (2 dice, brutal 1)
2. In some cases, the improvements are fairly significant. Before Weapon Expertise, MC feats were practically must-takes. With the improvement of power selection with the release of all the new books, the value of Power Swap feats has gone with greatly. Have you actually tried looking? Methinks you haven't. Some of the new powers and MC feats are just downright juicy.
As someone who advocates the Enternal Seeker epic destiny for Avengers? Yeah, I'm aware. I still don't think most power swaps are worth the opportunity cost. I'm not willing to spend the feats for Storm of Blades for my Str+Wis avenger, and that's at the top of the range.
Random suggestion: when replying to people, read their arguments with the greatest tolerance possible. Consider their arguments as if they had a brain, and try and figure out what they are saying before you assume that they are all wrong. It turns out most people with opinions are not idiots who have not done any research. Some are, perhaps, but not most. You'll come across as less arrogant that way. Thanks.
The average difference in DPR between a martial weapon and an equivilent superior weapon is +1 per [W]. Fullblade vs. Greatsword(d12 vs. d10. And High-crit for extra). Execution Axe vs. Great Axe(Brutal 2). Mordenkrad (2 dice, brutal 1)
It's never that clear cut. The value of Weapon Proficiency can be just a +1 damage, or, in the case of Rogues taking Superior Crossbow Proficiency, +1 to hit, +1 per [W] and more range. There is no average. The value of Weapon Proficiency is assessed on a case to case basis.
As someone who advocates the Enternal Seeker epic destiny for Avengers? Yeah, I'm aware. I still don't think most power swaps are worth the opportunity cost. I'm not willing to spend the feats for Storm of Blades for my Str+Wis avenger, and that's at the top of the range.
Random suggestion: when replying to people, read their arguments with the greatest tolerance possible. Consider their arguments as if they had a brain, and try and figure out what they are saying before you assume that they are all wrong. It turns out most people with opinions are not idiots who have not done any research. Some are, perhaps, but not most. You'll come across as less arrogant that way. Thanks.
Thank you for the suggestion.
I don't see any opportunity cost here. Power Swaps that are worth the cost are straight-up upgrades. Storm of Blades may not be worth it for an Avenger, but that's because Avengers are a Wis melee class - they're unusual in that regard so don't have a lot of use for Power Swap feats.
Other classes fare much better. Attacks on the Run from Ranger is an obvious poachable choice for Rogues, assuming that they already have the MC feat. Along the same lines, Two Fanged Strike on the Encounter. Working from the other side, Hide in Plain Sight would be great for Archer Rangers.
Allowing a one-feat-only cost is too good. There are some classes whose features warrant less powerful powers.
Out of curiosity, I'd like to know why exactly you don't think Storm of Blades is a nice pick-up for a Str+Wis Avenger, assuming you already had Berserker Fury. Are the 13th level Avenger powers really that good?
I don't see any opportunity cost here. Power Swaps that are worth the cost are straight-up upgrades. Storm of Blades may not be worth it for an Avenger, but that's because Avengers are a Wis melee class - they're unusual in that regard so don't have a lot of use for Power Swap feats.
The opportunity cost is "I could have spent the feat for something else". Ever time you spend a limited resource for one thing, there is an opportunity cost: the other things you could have spent it on. So yes I upgrade a power. But that means I spent a feat. And I could have spent that feat on something else instead. (And, excepting specific ranger or barbarian powers, usually the upgrade is limited. And if the upgrade is huge, that means the power may be nerfed in the near future)
Now, after you've picked up your key feats, the opportunity cost is reduced ... because the other feat you could have picked up instead isn't as important. But as you get into higher tiers, you open up better feats. So the opportunity cost of a feat is still pretty high.
Allowing a one-feat-only cost is too good. There are some classes whose features warrant less powerful powers.
My personal suggestion is still two feats for the first swap (MC + swap), but I'm throwing two other swaps for free.
Out of curiosity, I'd like to know why exactly you don't think Storm of Blades is a nice pick-up for a Str+Wis Avenger, assuming you already had Berserker Fury. Are the 13th level Avenger powers really that good?
If you already have Berserker Fury, yes, Storm of Blades is worth a feat. Avengers have some really nice level 3 and 7 encounter powers, but 13 isn't a great level. The best power is probably Crimson Stride (teleport+attack+teleport on hit). The best pure damage power is a single-hit 3[W] power. 3*1[W] is a lot better than that. Especially for an Avenger who's less likely to miss and break the chain.
So yes, Power swapping an encounter power is clearly worth one feat.
But since having Berserker Fury means you don't have Battle Awareness (and so can't go with Pitfighter) or a different defender MC feat (and so can't go with Son of Mercy), I think the opportunity cost is too high. (+wis to damage when you have Twin Strike as an At-Will power? tasty). Or you could take Windrise Ports, but then you've limited yourself to LFR, and given up +1 to hit on action points, or energy resistance, or 6-8 hitpoints or some such.
The next feat package I'm looking at for Wil is Vistini Heritage. That's two feats for an additional minor-action attack power each encounter. That gives me 3 attacks a round (twin strike + minor action attack) for two rounds a combat, but allows me to keep my utility encounter powers (shift through walls+Attack, and Teleport+attack+teleport) for mobility. If I instead took Storm of Blades, I'd have 3 attacks a round as a standard action... but only once per combat. Because I had to give up my minor-action attack to get it. (Or I had to give up a mobility power. And since those are really important when you need them, that seems like a bad idea).
After those feats, Epic is right there, when I get power swaps at basically the cost of two +2 to stats. So I could use Power Swap feats isntead of Eternal Seeker. That would give me some stat boosts I desperately need (assuming a background I don't have)... but would keep me from taking the radiant feat package and doing crazy things on all my crits.
The opportunity cost is "I could have spent the feat for something else". Ever time you spend a limited resource for one thing, there is an opportunity cost: the other things you could have spent it on. So yes I upgrade a power. But that means I spent a feat. And I could have spent that feat on something else instead. (And, excepting specific ranger or barbarian powers, usually the upgrade is limited. And if the upgrade is huge, that means the power may be nerfed in the near future)
Now, after you've picked up your key feats, the opportunity cost is reduced ... because the other feat you could have picked up instead isn't as important. But as you get into higher tiers, you open up better feats. So the opportunity cost of a feat is still pretty high.
For an Avenger, maybe. As I said, the Avenger is an unusual beast in that it doesn't have a whole lot of synergy with pretty much everything else. For a Fighter and a Taclord, the best poaching grounds aren't actually Ranger and Barbarian powers. They're Wizard powers! Ranger and Barbarian powers are good, too, though.
For a Paladin, a fair number of Warlock and Sorcerer powers are quite appealing, if he's got the Cha for it, or the Wis-using implement users otherwise. Yes, those are worth the feat. Yes, even if it's Weapon Focus you're trading for it.
My personal suggestion is still two feats for the first swap (MC + swap), but I'm throwing two other swaps for free.
Eh. It's all up-in-the-air right now. Personally, I don't know whether changing the cost is all that good. After all, we don't want it to be so appealing that everyone is doing it, and a whole lot of peeps are already MCing for the Skill Training as it is. Battle Awareness is so good that a LOT of melee classes basically are incentivized to consider multiclassing right off the bat. If the cost to acquire the other class's entire power suite is just one other feat, I'm not sure that that's too much of an advantage to ignore.
I mean consider it. If you were a Fighter, and for the cost of two feats, get +2 damage for 1 encounter daily, AND add the entire Barbarian Encounter, Utility, and Daily lineups for picks, isn't that kind of a no-brainer?
I'm inclined to think that 3 feats for the whole thing is fair, but given that the overall cost is already three, I don't see why it shouldn't be 4, just so cherry-pickers aren't obliged to spend everything just to get in on some of the action. I suppose I could be persuaded to unite the Attack Power multiclassing feat into one, but that's entirely too juicy, IMO.
f you already have Berserker Fury, yes, Storm of Blades is worth a feat. Avengers have some really nice level 3 and 7 encounter powers, but 13 isn't a great level. The best power is probably Crimson Stride (teleport+attack+teleport on hit). The best pure damage power is a single-hit 3[W] power. 3*1[W] is a lot better than that. Especially for an Avenger who's less likely to miss and break the chain.
So yes, Power swapping an encounter power is clearly worth one feat.
But since having Berserker Fury means you don't have Battle Awareness (and so can't go with Pitfighter) or a different defender MC feat (and so can't go with Son of Mercy), I think the opportunity cost is too high. (+wis to damage when you have Twin Strike as an At-Will power? tasty). Or you could take Windrise Ports, but then you've limited yourself to LFR, and given up +1 to hit on action points, or energy resistance, or 6-8 hitpoints or some such.
Well, then in that case, the problem isn't with the Power Swap feat, right? It's with the base Multiclass feat Berserker Fury! So which is worth the feat on its own? Battle Awareness or Berserker Fury?
Let's assume that it's Battle Awareness. If you already have Battle Awareness, would it be worth a feat to get Rain of Steel from the Fighter power list in trade for Holy Ardor? I'm thinking it would be worth TWO feats.
And Force the Battle on an Avenger? Holy gods!
For the Encounter Power, Talon of the Roc looks pretty nice, and even Rain of Blows without the kicker is pretty appealing for an Avenger, IMO. It's a little more iffy than the Dailies, but definitely worth looking over for synergies.
For the Utilities, Defensive Training is better defense boost than most of your own stances. Not quite as okay of a trade in general, with the added feat cost, as Avenger Utilities are generally better than Fighter Utilities. Still, I think some of the stances are worth the trade and feat cost.
In most cases, they're wasted feat slots, and I have a hard enough time fitting all the feats I want on a build anyway. Even something as ubiqutous as weapon focus often doesn't get a slot until late paragon, if at all.
For an Avenger, maybe. As I said, the Avenger is an unusual beast in that it doesn't have a whole lot of synergy with pretty much everything else.
Actually, Avengers have huge synergy with anything that provides multiattacks. If you abuse your Censure, you can get huge static bonuses and just want some way to apply them.
I mean consider it. If you were a Fighter, and for the cost of two feats, get +2 damage for 1 encounter daily, AND add the entire Barbarian Encounter, Utility, and Daily lineups for picks, isn't that kind of a no-brainer?
My approach, you can still only have one encounter power, one utility power, and one daily power swap. Nothing changes there.
Well, then in that case, the problem isn't with the Power Swap feat, right? It's with the base Multiclass feat Berserker Fury! So which is worth the feat on its own? Battle Awareness or Berserker Fury?
Berserker Fury would be great for an avenger that was going to take an Avenger MC, because of the benefit of the feat. It's also good because barbarians have great powers to swap for. I just think the decreasing utility of powerswaps can justify a 2 feat maximum.
Let's assume that it's Battle Awareness. If you already have Battle Awareness, would it be worth a feat to get Rain of Steel from the Fighter power list in trade for Holy Ardor? I'm thinking it would be worth TWO feats.
And Force the Battle on an Avenger? Holy gods!
Force the Battle only really works on Fighter powers, so that's a waste in an MC situation. Rain of Blows is just Twin Strike, and there are other ways of getting that. (Rain of Steel is pretty darn good though) But there are a couple of good Fighter multi-attack powers in there that I'd take if I could afford the feat. (Probably ought to take anyway over weapon focus, but I overvalue DPR, and right now my only free encounter power is 1st level, and there are no fighter powers I want at that level.).
kilpatds:My personal suggestion is still two feats for the first swap (MC + swap), but I'm throwing two other swaps for free.
Eh. It's all up-in-the-air right now. Personally, I don't know whether changing the cost is all that good. After all, we don't want it to be so appealing that everyone is doing it, and a whole lot of peeps are already MCing for the Skill Training as it is. Battle Awareness is so good that a LOT of melee classes basically are incentivized to consider multiclassing right off the bat. If the cost to acquire the other class's entire power suite is just one other feat, I'm not sure that that's too much of an advantage to ignore.
My concern with regard to making MC less costly is also that it would result in the majority of players doing it. If this happens then I feel that MC has gone to far in terms of how good it is. Because of the complexity of trying to combine any two classes together, there will be a variance in the power of MC. I would tend to err on the side of MC being a little underpowered on average than overpowered when compared to single classed characters.
Geez. What are you spending your feats on, anyway?
kilpatds:
Actually, Avengers have huge synergy with anything that provides multiattacks. If you abuse your Censure, you can get huge static bonuses and just want some way to apply them.
Avengers have bad synergy because their secondary and primary attributes don't allow them to easily poach powers from other classes. You can go Strength, like you did, but I can't bear to look at the AC of a Strength Avenger. One wonders how your survives at all.
My approach, you can still only have one encounter power, one utility power, and one daily power swap. Nothing changes there.
Feat cost does. For one feat, half your power lineup can come from either class. That's a no-brainer.
Berserker Fury would be great for an avenger that was going to take an Avenger MC, because of the benefit of the feat. It's also good because barbarians have great powers to swap for. I just think the decreasing utility of powerswaps can justify a 2 feat maximum.
What do you mean by decreasing utility? Every Power Swap that creates a power upgrade is worth a feat, particularly in cases where that power upgrade is significant.
Force the Battle only really works on Fighter powers, so that's a waste in an MC situation. Rain of Blows is just Twin Strike, and there are other ways of getting that. (Rain of Steel is pretty darn good though) But there are a couple of good Fighter multi-attack powers in there that I'd take if I could afford the feat. (Probably ought to take anyway over weapon focus, but I overvalue DPR, and right now my only free encounter power is 1st level, and there are no fighter powers I want at that level.).
No. It would actually be of use in a MC situation, because outside of Versatile Master, that's the only way you're going to get a Fighter at-will on an Avenger.
Rain of Blows is Twin Strike, except that it allows you to use a big two-handed weapon with it. For both attacks. Sucks if you're dual-wielding, but good for everyone else.
Between Rain of Blows and Rain of Steel, you've just about exhausted your Power Swap feats. 2 feats for the two power swaps is a fair trade. You want a better trade because you want a more powerful character. I can understand the motivation, but as I DM, too, I am also concerned with power balance.
Putting a multiattack power like Rain of Blows on a Greatsword or Fullblade wielding Avenger is no laughing matter. If he chooses a Heavy Flail (because, being an Avenger, he can afford the AB hit), he gets THREE attacks! Ludicrous. The only thing that really makes that prohibitive is the 15 Dex requirement, but it's not like an Avenger can't run on Wis/Dex/Str. Even without the third attack, though, that's quite impressive - well over standard.
Avengers have bad synergy because their secondary and primary attributes don't allow them to easily poach powers from other classes. You can go Strength, like you did, but I can't bear to look at the AC of a Strength Avenger. One wonders how your survives at all.
AC attacks are just damage, usually. (In heroic, that will change for the worse later). Good defenders keep me from getting attacked, and some utility powers and equipment are focused on keeping me alive/preventing attacks. If I could afford the feats, I'd get heavy armor ... But see prior comments about the cost of feats.
What do you mean by decreasing utility? Every Power Swap that creates a power upgrade is worth a feat, particularly in cases where that power upgrade is significant.
Because the odds are basically zero that you'll find an Encounter Power, Daily Power, and Utility power that's worth a feat to swap. At best you'll find two (Windrise Ports Avenger/(Fighter,Ranger) could use both Ranger daily powers and encounter powers. I can't come up any other examples off the top of my head).
Most of the time, when I've played with PMC builds, I end up taking the feat to enable PMC, and then not choosing more than one power swap. I took the feat, and I couldn't justify the power swap. That's my experience.
No. It would actually be of use in a MC situation, because outside of Versatile Master, that's the only way you're going to get a Fighter at-will on an Avenger.
Um, the only way you get a Fighter at-will on an Avenger is PMC, not just MC. And this thread is talking about the base MC feats. And on a PMC Fighter, go nuts with Force the Battle. Please. You'll need to do something to feel like your character functions. (That's my DM hat. PMC is so underpowered, I'd be giving out candy to people who's characters went that direction)
Between Rain of Blows and Rain of Steel, you've just about exhausted your Power Swap feats. 2 feats for the two power swaps is a fair trade. You want a better trade because you want a more powerful character. I can understand the motivation, but as I DM, too, I am also concerned with power balance.
I am also a DM, and no. You're mischaracterizing the why.
So my "moar power" character is Wil, the one with the AC of an unattended object. But I've also got a old Hexhammer who would love some MC powers to let him off-tank. In both cases, I should want to obviously take MC powers. Once for Moar Power, once for utility.
In neither case DO I take MC powers via powerswap feats. The upgrade in power is not worth the feat cost. In both cases, I'm taking the MC feat, so the swap is just one feat away. Just one feat! And too expensive.
Again, I believe you are in general underestimating the costs. Please give specific examples of level 21+ builds that are obviously broken because of my house rule? (Or really, any level. Specific builds that are broken at any level are also a problem. It's just ones that stop being broken at higher levels are less likely to see play)
he gets THREE attacks! Ludicrous. The only thing that really makes that prohibitive is the 15 Dex requirement, but it's not like an Avenger can't run on Wis/Dex/Str.
Longtooth shifter Pursuit Avenger could pull that off easily (and given Pitfighter, it's worth the feat swap in his case). The problem is again, you can only keep up two stats so at some point he'll want that power back, or he'll have a horrid AC. The "only bump two stats" thing is a strong damper on random synergies. (Which would be a good point. If you have a "bump 3 stats" house rule in place, you probably need stronger controlls on Hybrid/MC abuse.)
Most of the time, when I've played with PMC builds, I end up taking the feat to enable PMC, and then not choosing more than one power swap. I took the feat, and I couldn't justify the power swap. That's my experience.
I find this quite interesting. It sounds like most of your PMC builds are based only on the at-will power swap or a PMC feat. Is this correct? If so, do these benefits really justify taking two power swap feats and not swapping the power and gaining 3 further powers from your second class? I figure if you did not swap powers with the Novice Power feat, the level 7 encounter power you gain from PMC would be worthless to you, too.
If the at-will swap is really worth your burning feats and class features to gain, then it would lead me to believe that the at-will swap is such a very powerful ability.
If the at-will swap is really worth your burning feats and class features to gain, then it would lead me to believe that the at-will swap is such a very powerful ability.
given that At-Will powers vary widly in power ...
The ability to swap at-will powers can be a very powerful ability.
Now, if Twin Strike (and perhaps Hellish Rebuke, or perhaps Eyebite) get some nerf applied, that will stop being as true. But until then, Half-Elves are great races for a lot of classes, even if they have no attribute synergy.
(Longtooth Shifter Avenger/Ranger PMC. I'll take a Ranger encounter power, but I'm happy with Avenger Dailies and Utilities for all of Heroic. Come Epic, you'll take the power swaps. The other one I've played with is a PMC Sorcerer from an arcane class, where I just wanted to add Str or Dex damage to all my arcane powers. There I wanted the Utility powers, but passed on all the attack powers.)
I'm not so sure about Hellish Rebuke and Eyebite. I've seen a low level hybrid paladin-warlock try to make use of HR, but it didn't seem very effective. Perhaps it would be more effective at higher levels and with a PMC character instead of a hybrd. I assume the intent of these at-wills is to use them in conjunction with Divine Challenge.
I guess if you do not plan to swap powers at the heroic tier, you can just take other more useful feats and then retrain them in the few levels prior to paragon. That way, you get some use for those feat slots you would eventually allocate to power swaps.
In any case, making at-will swapping easier would make those particular very powerful builds even more powerful and more accessible to more players. I'm not sure if this is a good idea in order to make some other weaker at-wills more viable.
I just cannot see my group doing something like what you did. I'm the only player planning to go the PMC route and my plan was to have my fighter gain Thunderwave. I also actually do plan to actually swap powers with all 3 of my power swap feats.
I'm not so sure about Hellish Rebuke and Eyebite. I've seen a low level hybrid paladin-warlock try to make use of HR, but it didn't seem very effective. Perhaps it would be more effective at higher levels and with a PMC character instead of a hybrd. I assume the intent of these at-wills is to use them in conjunction with Divine Challenge.
The point of Hellish Rebuke is to use with a Bloodclaw Implement. The extra damage is a separate attack, and so gets all static modifiers to damage, and ends up outdamaging Twin Strike, if you can guarentee taking a little damage every time after you hit. Obviously after the bloodclaw nerf, that's harder. It's also usually done by Infernal Warlocks/Bloodmages anyway, who have no need to PMC to pick it up. In fact, I can't imagine anyone picking it up bia PMC.
In any case, making at-will swapping easier would make those particular very powerful builds even more powerful and more accessible to more players. I'm not sure if this is a good idea in order to make some other weaker at-wills more viable.
Well, really, it's twin strike. And yeah, You might need to do some balancing if you want to make PMC easier, but avoid twin-strike abuse.
my fighter gain Thunderwave. I also actually do plan to actually swap powers with all 3 of my power swap feats.
So actual Str/Int fighter? Why not Swordmage PMC Wizard? (Or just Half-Elf Swordmage?) Taking encounter power swaps means that you're using it for more than just marking, which means you need to have an attack-level Int, and that means that your Wisdom isn't high (so you don't push them far), nor your Dex or Con, and so I'm not seeing what you'll get out of it.
So actual Str/Int fighter? Why not Swordmage PMC Wizard? (Or just Half-Elf Swordmage?) Taking encounter power swaps means that you're using it for more than just marking, which means you need to have an attack-level Int, and that means that your Wisdom isn't high (so you don't push them far), nor your Dex or Con, and so I'm not seeing what you'll get out of it.
My reasons for the fighter/wizard with Str/Int primary attacks is more for nostalgic/role play reasons (my first every AD&D character). I understand that my build is by no means near optimal from a functional point of view. For my group, that is not as big of an issue, but I do try to build it as best I can.
The strain on abilities is definitely a big issue with such a build. Only Cha is my only dump stat. I need everything else. Basically I have 2 primary stats and 3 secondary stats. Balancing them as best I can I have had to make some tough decisions. I want Scale Specialisation, so I have to start with 14 Dex. My Con and Wis is 13. By paragon, they will be 14 and Dex 15 and I figure that is where I would be using Thunderwave a lot. That leaves a 16 for starting Str/Int. Btw, I'm Eladrin.
I have some ideas on how this character will evolve. Twist the Arcane Fabric seems like an interesting feat to take later. Our rogue always seems to disregard good tactics. In our last game, it would have been beneficial if I had this feat already. That way I can Thunderwave him out of danger even when he refuses to fall back. We're only level 2, so there's a long way to go before I get a really good feel of PMC and multiclassing in general.
As for why no swordmage. Well, first of all, I didn't have access to the FRPG when I made my character. After looking at it more carefully later, I thought it was pretty cool. I did build one that is in reserve in case we decide to play a one of when not everyone is available. In general, I was kinda biased when I initially heard of the term. It sounded like WotC is admitting that multiclassing doesn't work and this class is what you take instead of multiclassing as a fighter/wizard. That was before 4E came out. When the 4E rules came out, I looked at it and thought that I could build a decent fighter/wizard. 4E was much better than 3E/3.5 with regard to the multiclassing rules. Since I more or less figured out an adequate fighter/wizard build in 4E, I didn't really considered the swordmage much. The other thing was I like the idea of a heavily armoured tank who shoots out magic spells from time to time.
The other thing was I like the idea of a heavily armoured tank who shoots out magic spells from time to time.
Considered a Str/Cha barbarian/sorcerer?
Considered a Str/Cha barbarian/sorcerer?
I did consider a Str/Cha fighter/sorcerer. I liked what the fighter has to offer to the defender role. The multimarking was something that I wanted. I looked at the powers of the sorcerer and wizard and felt that adding controller effects were more interesting to me than just straight damage. I find that wizard powers were just more interesting with this build that sorcerer powers.
I think some of the sorcerer powers seemed a bit counter productive to being a defender. Some sorcerer powers make the enemy not want to attack me. That goes against what I want to do as a fighter which is draw fire away from my allies. I'd rather force my enemies to do something specific that is better for me rather than leave it to them to pick what is likely better for them.
The wizard powers on the other hand seem to synergise with what I'm trying to do as a defender which is prevent enemies from going after my allies. Some of the wizard powers can apply conditions which take the heat off my allies or allow me to control where the enemy would want and not want to go.
Doing extra damage isn't something that would really benefit me that much. I'm pretty much resigned to the fact that the sorcerer and rogue are going to be the heavy hitters in our group. The sorcerer does more damage on a regular hit with no setup than I can with a crit. So far, I'm enjoying the capabilities of my character.
I only wish I could find a way to get that extra point of Wis. Last game, it would have been quite useful if only I could push 2 squares with Thunderwave. In any case, I find that in 4E, there are just so many instances where I had to make a choice between two or more almost equally good options. It was between push with Thunderwave farther at Heroic, Scale Specialisation at Paragon and Hit Points/Surges. No matter what I chose, I would have been both happy to get something and unhappy to not get something else.
Because the odds are basically zero that you'll find an Encounter Power, Daily Power, and Utility power that's worth a feat to swap. At best you'll find two (Windrise Ports Avenger/(Fighter,Ranger) could use both Ranger daily powers and encounter powers. I can't come up any other examples off the top of my head).
Most of the time, when I've played with PMC builds, I end up taking the feat to enable PMC, and then not choosing more than one power swap. I took the feat, and I couldn't justify the power swap. That's my experience.
Maybe you haven't DM'd enough half-elf players.
The odds are NOT zero that you'll find an Encounter, Daily, and Utility that is favorable to swap. In fact, the odds are rather high if you're building the character right.
For instance, a Fighter/Cleric is greatly advantaged by taking a self-regenerative Encounter 1, a healing Utility (Encounter Word of Vigor would be fantastic along those lines) and switching his rather lackluster level 9 Dailies with something like Divine Power - a burst 2 Weapon vs. Fort damage power that also gives you regeneration, adds AC to you and allies, and (because you're a Fighter) marks every target you attack.
There you go - 3 swaps that are worth the cost.
A Taclord could go Wizard for mass damage, sweeping, and blasts, and a Inspirilord could go Sorcerer for the melee punishment powers.
I think you're skipping the boat because you believe that Expertise or Focus or Toughness are must-takes. If you experiment with optimizing without those feats, you'll find that they're not really all that necessary after all. Optimize off the beaten path.
Um, the only way you get a Fighter at-will on an Avenger is PMC, not just MC. And this thread is talking about the base MC feats. And on a PMC Fighter, go nuts with Force the Battle. Please. You'll need to do something to feel like your character functions. (That's my DM hat. PMC is so underpowered, I'd be giving out candy to people who's characters went that direction)
Quite frankly, I don't think you HAVE DM'd all that many characters made under the PMC rules to begin with. I don't think you can really appreciate the multimarking capabilities of a Fighter/Caster until you see it in mid-Paragon firsthand.
I am also a DM, and no. You're mischaracterizing the why.
So my "moar power" character is Wil, the one with the AC of an unattended object. But I've also got a old Hexhammer who would love some MC powers to let him off-tank. In both cases, I should want to obviously take MC powers. Once for Moar Power, once for utility.
In neither case DO I take MC powers via powerswap feats. The upgrade in power is not worth the feat cost. In both cases, I'm taking the MC feat, so the swap is just one feat away. Just one feat! And too expensive.
Again, I believe you are in general underestimating the costs. Please give specific examples of level 21+ builds that are obviously broken because of my house rule? (Or really, any level. Specific builds that are broken at any level are also a problem. It's just ones that stop being broken at higher levels are less likely to see play)
Did you not JUST tell me that Rain of Steel is worth it for an Avenger/Fighter? Your Avenger/Ranger isn't taking Attacks on the Run? Is the build so tight that you can't spare one feat to upgrade whatever your 9th level attack power is? And don't tell me you're not taking Cruel Cage of Steel or Blade Cascade. That would be just nuts.
Note that you can't normally take both those Dailies. You can only take one Adept Power feat for Ranger. You'd have to PMC to get Cruel Cage of Steel and Blade Cascade (and it incidentally also allows you to get Twin Strike).
Your Avenger I have a hard time validating, because it is a very strange, off-kilter build. Strength Avenger Revenant Half-Elves are not the norm, I'm thinking. It needs a lot of feat propping just so it doesn't keel over and die, and when it doesn't, it does broken things. It's unstable like this because you're making the rules do weird stuff. It's not an inherent weakness of the Power Swap feats. If you could Power Swap as you like your Avenger would be even more broken than it already is.
Your Hexhammer, I can't tell because I haven't seen that build. What kind of bizarre rule mechanic is working there?
I think you're skipping the boat because you believe that Expertise or Focus or Toughness are must-takes. If you experiment with optimizing without those feats, you'll find that they're not really all that necessary after all. Optimize off the beaten path.
Expertise is a must-take... just not necessarily in Heroic. I've never taken Toughness, and don't consider Focus a must take.
Did you not JUST tell me that Rain of Steel is worth it for an Avenger/Fighter? Your Avenger/Ranger isn't taking Attacks on the Run? Is the build so tight that you can't spare one feat to upgrade whatever your 9th level attack power is? And don't tell me you're not taking Cruel Cage of Steel or Blade Cascade. That would be just nuts.
Wil's an Avenger/Fighter. Were he an Avenger/Ranger (Windrise ports, and another feat lost), I would find the space for an encounter power swap. (Lashing Leaves, if you're keeping track). I wouldn't take the daily though. I'll take Blade Cascade eventually via Eternal Seeker, but I wouldn't spend a feat to swap for it.
I've already lost enough daily attack powers when the monster did some interrupt "you can't hit me anymore" power to prefer encounter-long buffs, and Avenger has some good ones. (Not as good as Rain of Steel, but good enough that it's not worth the feat).
Your Hexhammer, I can't tell because I haven't seen that build. What kind of bizarre rule mechanic is working there?
That's an old build of Nifts, only slightly modified by new stuff. Basically take an Infernal Warlock, then wander into melee like an idiot because of all your temp hp. Dwarf, Iron Vanguard as the PP, the end. Originally is a Str/Con build. Now can be a Con/Int build because of Eldritch Strike, although you still want a pretty heft strength for feats (hammer rhythm)
Expertise is a must-take... just not necessarily in Heroic. I've never taken Toughness, and don't consider Focus a must take.
So what's the problem? You should have enough feats to spare then. If you only take Expertise at level 15, then you have lots of feat room.
Wil's an Avenger/Fighter. Were he an Avenger/Ranger (Windrise ports, and another feat lost), I would find the space for an encounter power swap. (Lashing Leaves, if you're keeping track). I wouldn't take the daily though. I'll take Blade Cascade eventually via Eternal Seeker, but I wouldn't spend a feat to swap for it.
I've already lost enough daily attack powers when the monster did some interrupt "you can't hit me anymore" power to prefer encounter-long buffs, and Avenger has some good ones. (Not as good as Rain of Steel, but good enough that it's not worth the feat).
Now you're contradicting yourself. First I thought it was worth it, and now it isn't?
I don't see any 5th level Avenger powers powerful enough not to warrant switching over to Rain of Steel, particularly by late Heroic when you have more feats.
Not even Bond of Foresight is that good, and Bond's pretty good.
That's an old build of Nifts, only slightly modified by new stuff. Basically take an Infernal Warlock, then wander into melee like an idiot because of all your temp hp. Dwarf, Iron Vanguard as the PP, the end. Originally is a Str/Con build. Now can be a Con/Int build because of Eldritch Strike, although you still want a pretty heft strength for feats (hammer rhythm)
Iron Vanguard?!?!? I don't see the allure, frankly. What's going on there? Can you outline the essential power/feature synergies?
Now you're contradicting yourself. First I thought it was worth it, and now it isn't?
?? IMHO, swapping an encounter power for Lashing Leaves would be worth a feat (if I could do so. I can't). Actually, now that I consider the power I'd have to give up, I'll have to take that back. I wouldn't swap for Lashing Leaves for a few levels even, because right now my 7th level power lets me walk through walls, and that's more useful than "moar damage"
I don't think swaping a daily would be. I admit that -2 to AC to any enemies I base isn't all that, but it's good enough that I don't think Rain of Steel is worth the feat cost.
I don't see any 5th level Avenger powers powerful enough not to warrant switching over to Rain of Steel, particularly by late Heroic when you have more feats.
Feats Wil has to take:
* Half-Elf Soul: to get twin strike. A key build element, and the source of most of my spike damage.
* Expertise. Not usually a must take in Heroic, but I'm starting with a 16 in both attack stats.
* Proficiency: LFR doesn't give you your perfect weapon, so you have to buy it. A double weapon saves money.
* Multiclass Fighter: for my PP
Wil also has the following "high value" feats. These are more optional:
* Improved Armor of Faith. Because his AC is low enough already
* Weapon Focus: My Nova round is based on 4-5 attacks (depending on the Warlord's action)
Um, so the only slack feat there is Weapon Focus. (The math indicates that Power Attack would be slightly better than Weapon Focus, but one of our DMs like DMEing brutes by halving their HP but raising defenses by 5. So ... I frequently need all the Attack Bonus I can find).
Now, I already have an encounter multiattack power (Twin Strike), and a minor action attack power (Fury's Advance). My options for a power swap are Angelic Alacrity (1st level) or Inexorable Pursuit (7th)... and since Inexorable Pursuit gives Phasing (walk through walls), I'm not giving that up.
My Daily powers are Strength of Many (setup power for the Nova round. Add a large static modifier to damage, and then apply it 4-5 times), Menacing Presence (-2 to AC to anyone I base), and Aspect of Might (+2 speed, +2 damage). Two encounter long bufs, one power for a good solid Nova turn. That's the ratio I'd like to keep.
So: I can give up Weapon Focus and Menacing Presence for Rain of Steel. Rain of Steel is better than Menacing Presence... but I'm not convinced it's better than Menacing Presence plus Weapon Focus. (Or, alternately, if this following your tastes more, Bond of Foresight + Power Attack)
Not even Bond of Foresight is that good, and Bond's pretty good.
? Monsters make saves. Monsters you care about make saves faster. (To spell it out, that is, in my experience, about 1/3 of DMs will basically give monsters a 2 bonus on saving throws in the belief that it makes for a more fun play experience. And even if you're with the other 2/3s of DMs, the expected duration is ~1.4 rounds, which means you'll get 1-2 attacks. Strikebacks give you that one attack every encounter.)
Iron Vanguard?!?!? I don't see the allure, frankly. What's going on there? Can you outline the essential power/feature synergies?
Lots of push powers/stances, Con damage on push, and again on prone, Con damage on Mis, Con damage aura you can put up, Con to hit, Con to damage on a hit. And enough temp hp to confuse the DMs tactics.
?? IMHO, swapping an encounter power for Lashing Leaves would be worth a feat (if I could do so. I can't). Actually, now that I consider the power I'd have to give up, I'll have to take that back. I wouldn't swap for Lashing Leaves for a few levels even, because right now my 7th level power lets me walk through walls, and that's more useful than "moar damage"
I don't think swaping a daily would be. I admit that -2 to AC to any enemies I base isn't all that, but it's good enough that I don't think Rain of Steel is worth the feat cost.
I think you're overestimating the value of the feat because of how weird your build is.
Feats Wil has to take:
* Half-Elf Soul: to get twin strike. A key build element, and the source of most of my spike damage.
* Expertise. Not usually a must take in Heroic, but I'm starting with a 16 in both attack stats.
* Proficiency: LFR doesn't give you your perfect weapon, so you have to buy it. A double weapon saves money.
* Multiclass Fighter: for my PP
Wil also has the following "high value" feats. These are more optional:
* Improved Armor of Faith. Because his AC is low enough already
* Weapon Focus: My Nova round is based on 4-5 attacks (depending on the Warlord's action)
Um, so the only slack feat there is Weapon Focus. (The math indicates that Power Attack would be slightly better than Weapon Focus, but one of our DMs like DMEing brutes by halving their HP but raising defenses by 5. So ... I frequently need all the Attack Bonus I can find).
Half Elf Revenant Avenger relying on Dilettante to spike damage, and taking a Fighter MC for the PP?
Yeah, I think it's your weird build.
Now, I already have an encounter multiattack power (Twin Strike), and a minor action attack power (Fury's Advance). My options for a power swap are Angelic Alacrity (1st level) or Inexorable Pursuit (7th)... and since Inexorable Pursuit gives Phasing (walk through walls), I'm not giving that up.
My Daily powers are Strength of Many (setup power for the Nova round. Add a large static modifier to damage, and then apply it 4-5 times), Menacing Presence (-2 to AC to anyone I base), and Aspect of Might (+2 speed, +2 damage). Two encounter long bufs, one power for a good solid Nova turn. That's the ratio I'd like to keep.
So: I can give up Weapon Focus and Menacing Presence for Rain of Steel. Rain of Steel is better than Menacing Presence... but I'm not convinced it's better than Menacing Presence plus Weapon Focus. (Or, alternately, if this following your tastes more, Bond of Foresight + Power Attack)
The characters I'm used to aren't so strange that pulling out a random generic feat or two would hamstring them. Power Attack is necessary for damage pulling in the Paragon tier, but at lower levels, it's not really all that good. Yes, giving up Bond of Foresight and Power Attack for Rain of Steel would be totally worth it in Heroic.
? Monsters make saves. Monsters you care about make saves faster. (To spell it out, that is, in my experience, about 1/3 of DMs will basically give monsters a 2 bonus on saving throws in the belief that it makes for a more fun play experience. And even if you're with the other 2/3s of DMs, the expected duration is ~1.4 rounds, which means you'll get 1-2 attacks. Strikebacks give you that one attack every encounter.)
Strikebacks are a level 10 item - only available to level 9 Heroes and above, and a major piece of kit until mid-Paragon. On the other hand, you can give up that feat and get Iron Armbands of Power, which replaces your +1 damage with +2.
Bond is basically an assured extra one or two attacks on top of the weapon damage of the base attack. And it works whether the initial attack hits or misses. If your OA attack is Overwhelming Strike, you can do a fair amount of shenanigans with Bond.
Lots of push powers/stances, Con damage on push, and again on prone, Con damage on Mis, Con damage aura you can put up, Con to hit, Con to damage on a hit. And enough temp hp to confuse the DMs tactics.
Sound like a really weird build. Again.
I don't think the Power Swap feats were designed to really work with your stuff. I think they're mainly designed to work with normal stuff.
Strikebacks are a level 10 item - only available to level 9 Heroes and above, and a major piece of kit until mid-Paragon. On the other hand, you can give up that feat and get Iron Armbands of Power, which replaces your +1 damage with +2.
One of the differences between real characters and theoritical ones. Wil already has Iron Armbands, and found some Strikebacks ... but doesn't have a Jagged Weapon (and won't be able to get one until 12th, it looks like).
Sound like a really weird build. Again.
I don't think the Power Swap feats were designed to really work with your stuff. I think they're mainly designed to work with normal stuff.
Hexhammer isn't my stuff. Blame Nift.
And yes, Wil is far more strictly constrained in feats than most. (-1 feat for Half-Elf with a Dex modifier. That didn't help any) But I think most are more strictly constrained in feats than you think.
To PMC, you limit yourself to two feats in Heroic. You go 10 levels, and get 2 feats. (And because of timing comsiderations, ignoring retrain tricks, the latest free feat is 6th level. 8th and 10th have to be specific power swap feats) Now, depending on how many feat taxes your build has (and if you're trying to PMC, odds are your build is a bit off the beaten path) that could be pretty horribly limiting.
Are you a non-str Melee class and neat a basic melee attack? One down. Do you need a feat for armor? Two down. You're done, and you didn't get to pick up a nice weapon or learn how to hit with it.
And that's it until you're paragon, basically. Now sure, once you're 20th level you'll have more feat flexibility. But that really won't help you when you're 10th level and feeling like you suck.
Now, I think we agree that for most home campaigns, the easiest solution is to say to people: "Tell me what you're trying to do, and I'll give you specific exceptions to make it work." That avoids home rules that can be abused.
But the very nature of home rules is that they can be changed if they are being abused. And having groups use home rules helps get feedback for possible rule changes. So I don't quite see why you're arguing so strongly about this... If someone breaks it, the same DB that created the home rule can change it back and say "wow. Didn't see that. You broke it. Well, the good news is you get a free retrain..." And if not, there was no harm.
We're not talking about changes to the base rules for LFR... it's a home rules forum from someone who wants his players to take more power swap feats.
To PMC, you limit yourself to two feats in Heroic. You go 10 levels, and get 2 feats. (And because of timing comsiderations, ignoring retrain tricks, the latest free feat is 6th level. 8th and 10th have to be specific power swap feats) Now, depending on how many feat taxes your build has (and if you're trying to PMC, odds are your build is a bit off the beaten path) that could be pretty horribly limiting.
Let's set some things straight. THIIS thread is about Power Swap feats. It's the other thread that's about PMC. You don't have to PMC to use Power Swap feats. You don't have to take all the Power Swap feats, either. Some Power Swaps are better for some characters, others better for others. It's a lot like how not everyone is going to want Power Attack.
If anything, the problem is with feats like Weapon Expertise and Focus (or whichever feats), which some believe are must-takes.
It's not limiting to take Power Swap feats anymore than it's limiting to always consider Weapon Focus, Weapon Expertise, and Weapon Proficiency must-takes. In one case, it's three, the other, four. Only a one-feat difference, and just a change of perspective.
Are you a non-str Melee class and neat a basic melee attack? One down. Do you need a feat for armor? Two down. You're done, and you didn't get to pick up a nice weapon or learn how to hit with it.
The problem is more that you think Weapon Proficiency and Weapon Expertise are must-takes rather than with the Power Swap feats. You can choose one or the other. Both increase your overall power. I don't see the problem.
And that's it until you're paragon, basically. Now sure, once you're 20th level you'll have more feat flexibility. But that really won't help you when you're 10th level and feeling like you suck.
I don't know that it's all that possible to craft game design to deal with player feelings, particularly individual player feelings. It's altogether possible to create an effective character in 4e in Heroic using no feats to boost your powers - and Power Swap feats boost your powers.
But the very nature of home rules is that they can be changed if they are being abused. And having groups use home rules helps get feedback for possible rule changes. So I don't quite see why you're arguing so strongly about this... If someone breaks it, the same DB that created the home rule can change it back and say "wow. Didn't see that. You broke it. Well, the good news is you get a free retrain..." And if not, there was no harm.
We're not talking about changes to the base rules for LFR... it's a home rules forum from someone who wants his players to take more power swap feats.
It's a matter of principle. A home rule that accommodates specific builds to make them more viable tells everyone around the table that that rule is only for this one character, and only so he doesn't suck resources from everyone else. There is no possibility that anyone will make the mistake of using those rules to create something that needs to be reined in.
Only one house ruling was necessary.
The other way, two were necessary, and that goes against DMG principles on house rule consistency and paucity. You can certainly do it that way, but I don't think it's advisable. That's all I'm saying.