Making the Aegis of Shielding More Interesting - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Making the Aegis of Shielding More Interesting

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
terk1011
Jul 11, 2010 16:48:19 So I've played several sessions now with a new player in my group as a Shielding Swordmage, and I gotta say I'm not wild about the build. It seems *too* good at its job. More importantly, it's rather boring compared to other defenders (particularly the flashy and cool defender styles of the other Swordmage builds.)

I'm thinking of making some house changes to the Aegis of Shielding so that the marked enemy still has a chance of damaging its target, which should bring back the importance of tactical movement and some of the dread of squishy characters getting attacked. I still want the shielding aegis to be the premier defensive build of the aegis types, however.

Here's what I'm thinking:
(replacing the second paragraph of Aegis of Shielding on FRPG, p26)

If your marked target makes an attack that doesn’t
include you as a target, it takes a –2 penalty to attack
rolls. In addition, you gain the Shielding Sword power, which you can use to further defend allies from your marked foe.

Shielding Sword
At Will * Arcane, Weapon
Immediate Interrupt, Ranged 10
Trigger: An enemy marked by your Aegis of Shielding hits an ally with an attack that does not include you as a target
Target: The triggering enemy
Attack: Intelligence vs. AC
Hit: The attack is negated, and the target grants combat advantage to the triggering ally until the end of the ally's next turn.

What do you think? Too weak? Too powerful? I could adjust it in a few ways, most notably by making it an implement attack and/or changing the target defense to, say, Reflex. I could also take out the "grant combat feature" and replace it with something else like, "the target cannot make AoO's against the triggering ally until the end of the ally's next turn."
#2
darklyte
Jul 11, 2010 19:31:44 Too powerful. I interpret "attack is negated" as if the attack never happens meaning no effects occur at all. So when that dragon uses its burst 5 breath attack on your allies, they take no damage. Hell, even when they boss decides to dominate the group excluding you, it does nothing.

Also consider that Aegis of Ensnaring causes combat advantage to be granted. With aegis of ensnaring, AFTER the attack resolves the mob is telelported adjacent to the swordmage and grants combat advantage. What you have designed here is more powerful than any defender ability.
#3
terk1011
Jul 11, 2010 22:23:03 Ah, you're right. I specifically tried to write the power so it only negated the damage for *one* ally, and failed miserably. :D Let's try that wording again.

Shielding Sword
At Will * Arcane, Weapon
Immediate Interrupt, Ranged 10
Trigger: An enemy marked by your Aegis of Shielding hits an ally with an attack that does not include you as a target
Target: The triggering enemy
Attack: Intelligence vs. AC
Hit: The attack instead misses one ally targeted by the attack, and the target grants combat advantage to the that ally until the end of the ally's next turn.

Better?

And I was aware of the ensnarement ability; it was actually what gave me the idea. I scaled it down for this Aegis, however, as it only grants the CA to one ally rather than everyone. Still, I could drop it. I just liked having *some* rider to spice things up a bit.

Also can someone clarify for me how the Aegis powers currently work? Can you target an enemy with total cover and/or total concealment? Because my changes as written would not allow that, and I'd like to keep it comprable.
#4
mellored
Jul 12, 2010 11:41:32 I'm not sure it should be a weapon attack, but i guess it depends on your flavor.

I don't think you should grant CA, making it miss is enough of a penalty. Remember you're also negating any status effects that the attack has, something regular shielding mage can't do.

There is an issue if you get your attack high enough, but shouldn't be an issue in a home game.

As for total cover/concealment, you would still need line of effect, but honestly. your also affected by buffs, so i don't see it as an issue.
#5
darklyte
Jul 12, 2010 21:41:57
I'm not sure it should be a weapon attack, but i guess it depends on your flavor.

I don't think you should grant CA, making it miss is enough of a penalty. Remember you're also negating any status effects that the attack has, something regular shielding mage can't do.

There is an issue if you get your attack high enough, but shouldn't be an issue in a home game.

As for total cover/concealment, you would still need line of effect, but honestly. your also affected by buffs, so i don't see it as an issue.

I agree. CA is what's pushing it over the top especially since the attack is gaurenteed to miss. This has 100% damage reduction compared to regular shieldings 5/10/15+con.

How about this instead?

Shielding Sword
At Will * Arcane
Immediate Interrupt, Ranged 10
Trigger: An enemy marked by your Aegis of Shielding hits an ally with an attack that does not include you as a target
Target: One ally targetted by the triggering attack.
Effect: Ally gains a power bonus to the targetted defense. This bonus is equal to your constitution modifier. If the attack still hits, the target gains combat advantage against the triggering enemy until the end of their next turn.

It's different than Aegis of Shielding and probably more powerful, but I don't think it's significantly worse.
#6
terk1011
Jul 13, 2010 2:12:20 In response to Darklyte
Hm, I see were you're coming from, but in my game at least it wouldn't work. I'm gaming over MapTools and am open about the rolls, meaning the players can see the total attack rolls for the enemies. So it would be too easy for the Swordmage to only use this modified version when it would cause a miss. Granted, he might still choose to use it on a miss given the secondary effect, but there is still no randomness or risk associated with the use, bringing back the boring factor I was trying to fix.

Also, I wouldn't exactly say my version is 100% damage reduction. At least not all the time. It only triggers if the swordmage hits with an attack, so sometimes he won't reduce the damage at all (just like sometimes a fighter or assault swordmage will sometimes cause no damage at all when an enemy provokes.) In addition, he won't negate the damage of a "half damage miss attack" (which are admittedly rare for monsters.)

I actually thought this was a bit weaker than the current swordmage because my general experience is that they reduce the enemy's damage so much as to make it virtually pointless for monsters to attack anyone else. Currently my party is level two, and the swordmage can reduce most standard moster attacks to, at most, a couple points of damage. I was also a player in one session at paragon with a shielding swordmage, and the effect was even more drastic then. Maybe this is atypical; I'm not certain. So, since I thought mine was weaker, I tossed in the CA kicker.

Not that I want to be a stick in the mud and say "I'm right!" Just thought I should point out the reasons I did what I did.

To mellored,

You make a good point about the status effect negation, so I think I'll cave and drop the "grant CA." Though I might try it for a session or two first and see how it goes, for curiosity sake.

And making it an implement attack probably does make better sense, as I don't really envision the swordmage chucking his blade across the battlefield to deflect the enemy blow. ... Though that would be awesome.

I'll go with Implement vs. Reflex, as Reflex seems to be the most neutral of the defenses. Not overpowered like Will attacks or underpowered like Fortitude. It fits well with the deflection idea too.

Sooo, revised revised version:

Shielding Sword
At Will * Arcane, Implement
Immediate Interrupt, Ranged 10
Trigger: An enemy marked by your Aegis of Shielding hits an ally with an attack that does not include you as a target
Target: The triggering enemy
Attack: Intelligence vs. Reflex
Hit: The triggering attack instead misses one ally targeted by the attack.

Simple and sweet.
#7
mellored
Jul 13, 2010 8:58:31 Actually i like Darkstyle's suggestion.

Hit: The enemy takes a penalty to the triggering attack roll equal to your Con mod. If the attack still hits, the enemy grant's CA untill the end of it's next turn.

With a paragon feat that add's -2 to the penalty.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 terk1011 Jul 11, 2010 16:48:19	So I've played several sessions now with a new player in my group as a Shielding Swordmage, and I gotta say I'm not wild about the build. It seems too good at its job. More importantly, it's rather boring compared to other defenders (particularly the flashy and cool defender styles of the other Swordmage builds.) I'm thinking of making some house changes to the Aegis of Shielding so that the marked enemy still has a chance of damaging its target, which should bring back the importance of tactical movement and some of the dread of squishy characters getting attacked. I still want the shielding aegis to be the premier defensive build of the aegis types, however. Here's what I'm thinking: (replacing the second paragraph of Aegis of Shielding on FRPG, p26) If your marked target makes an attack that doesn’t include you as a target, it takes a –2 penalty to attack rolls. In addition, you gain the Shielding Sword power, which you can use to further defend allies from your marked foe. Shielding Sword At Will * Arcane, Weapon Immediate Interrupt, Ranged 10 Trigger: An enemy marked by your Aegis of Shielding hits an ally with an attack that does not include you as a target Target: The triggering enemy Attack: Intelligence vs. AC Hit: The attack is negated, and the target grants combat advantage to the triggering ally until the end of the ally's next turn. What do you think? Too weak? Too powerful? I could adjust it in a few ways, most notably by making it an implement attack and/or changing the target defense to, say, Reflex. I could also take out the "grant combat feature" and replace it with something else like, "the target cannot make AoO's against the triggering ally until the end of the ally's next turn."
#2 darklyte Jul 11, 2010 19:31:44	Too powerful. I interpret "attack is negated" as if the attack never happens meaning no effects occur at all. So when that dragon uses its burst 5 breath attack on your allies, they take no damage. Hell, even when they boss decides to dominate the group excluding you, it does nothing. Also consider that Aegis of Ensnaring causes combat advantage to be granted. With aegis of ensnaring, AFTER the attack resolves the mob is telelported adjacent to the swordmage and grants combat advantage. What you have designed here is more powerful than any defender ability.
#3 terk1011 Jul 11, 2010 22:23:03	Ah, you're right. I specifically tried to write the power so it only negated the damage for one ally, and failed miserably. :D Let's try that wording again. Shielding Sword At Will * Arcane, Weapon Immediate Interrupt, Ranged 10 Trigger: An enemy marked by your Aegis of Shielding hits an ally with an attack that does not include you as a target Target: The triggering enemy Attack: Intelligence vs. AC Hit: The attack instead misses one ally targeted by the attack, and the target grants combat advantage to the that ally until the end of the ally's next turn. Better? And I was aware of the ensnarement ability; it was actually what gave me the idea. I scaled it down for this Aegis, however, as it only grants the CA to one ally rather than everyone. Still, I could drop it. I just liked having some rider to spice things up a bit. Also can someone clarify for me how the Aegis powers currently work? Can you target an enemy with total cover and/or total concealment? Because my changes as written would not allow that, and I'd like to keep it comprable.
#4 mellored Jul 12, 2010 11:41:32	I'm not sure it should be a weapon attack, but i guess it depends on your flavor. I don't think you should grant CA, making it miss is enough of a penalty. Remember you're also negating any status effects that the attack has, something regular shielding mage can't do. There is an issue if you get your attack high enough, but shouldn't be an issue in a home game. As for total cover/concealment, you would still need line of effect, but honestly. your also affected by buffs, so i don't see it as an issue.
#5 darklyte Jul 12, 2010 21:41:57	I'm not sure it should be a weapon attack, but i guess it depends on your flavor. I don't think you should grant CA, making it miss is enough of a penalty. Remember you're also negating any status effects that the attack has, something regular shielding mage can't do. There is an issue if you get your attack high enough, but shouldn't be an issue in a home game. As for total cover/concealment, you would still need line of effect, but honestly. your also affected by buffs, so i don't see it as an issue. I agree. CA is what's pushing it over the top especially since the attack is gaurenteed to miss. This has 100% damage reduction compared to regular shieldings 5/10/15+con. How about this instead? Shielding Sword At Will * Arcane Immediate Interrupt, Ranged 10 Trigger: An enemy marked by your Aegis of Shielding hits an ally with an attack that does not include you as a target Target: One ally targetted by the triggering attack. Effect: Ally gains a power bonus to the targetted defense. This bonus is equal to your constitution modifier. If the attack still hits, the target gains combat advantage against the triggering enemy until the end of their next turn. It's different than Aegis of Shielding and probably more powerful, but I don't think it's significantly worse.
#6 terk1011 Jul 13, 2010 2:12:20	In response to Darklyte Hm, I see were you're coming from, but in my game at least it wouldn't work. I'm gaming over MapTools and am open about the rolls, meaning the players can see the total attack rolls for the enemies. So it would be too easy for the Swordmage to only use this modified version when it would cause a miss. Granted, he might still choose to use it on a miss given the secondary effect, but there is still no randomness or risk associated with the use, bringing back the boring factor I was trying to fix. Also, I wouldn't exactly say my version is 100% damage reduction. At least not all the time. It only triggers if the swordmage hits with an attack, so sometimes he won't reduce the damage at all (just like sometimes a fighter or assault swordmage will sometimes cause no damage at all when an enemy provokes.) In addition, he won't negate the damage of a "half damage miss attack" (which are admittedly rare for monsters.) I actually thought this was a bit weaker than the current swordmage because my general experience is that they reduce the enemy's damage so much as to make it virtually pointless for monsters to attack anyone else. Currently my party is level two, and the swordmage can reduce most standard moster attacks to, at most, a couple points of damage. I was also a player in one session at paragon with a shielding swordmage, and the effect was even more drastic then. Maybe this is atypical; I'm not certain. So, since I thought mine was weaker, I tossed in the CA kicker. Not that I want to be a stick in the mud and say "I'm right!" Just thought I should point out the reasons I did what I did. To mellored, You make a good point about the status effect negation, so I think I'll cave and drop the "grant CA." Though I might try it for a session or two first and see how it goes, for curiosity sake. And making it an implement attack probably does make better sense, as I don't really envision the swordmage chucking his blade across the battlefield to deflect the enemy blow. ... Though that would be awesome. I'll go with Implement vs. Reflex, as Reflex seems to be the most neutral of the defenses. Not overpowered like Will attacks or underpowered like Fortitude. It fits well with the deflection idea too. Sooo, revised revised version: Shielding Sword At Will * Arcane, Implement Immediate Interrupt, Ranged 10 Trigger: An enemy marked by your Aegis of Shielding hits an ally with an attack that does not include you as a target Target: The triggering enemy Attack: Intelligence vs. Reflex Hit: The triggering attack instead misses one ally targeted by the attack. Simple and sweet.
#7 mellored Jul 13, 2010 8:58:31	Actually i like Darkstyle's suggestion. Hit: The enemy takes a penalty to the triggering attack roll equal to your Con mod. If the attack still hits, the enemy grant's CA untill the end of it's next turn. With a paragon feat that add's -2 to the penalty.