Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 garner_adam Aug 11, 2009 12:25:43	In my current game I've been wanting an opporunity to take advantage of some Eberronesque/Noir themes. In particular I want the "good guys" to be the major antagonists in an adventure for once. Trouble is I'm really not sure about the how to. My first thought is to do a "chase" style campaign where the Heroes are out to get some thing that is very important to the good aligned NPCs and the party. However the NPCs have different views on how to best make use of what the party is chasing after. How do I justify (or the NPC's justify) running against the heroes? (players)
#2 polt Aug 11, 2009 12:38:32	Just to use a classic example. Boromir wants to use the one ring against Sauron. Frodo wants to destroy the ring to destroy Sauron. Now, in the books, we know that Boromir is being corrupted by the ring. But take that out of the equation. What if they were both right? What if both things were possible?
#3 Topheh Aug 11, 2009 12:43:03	Well, I can think of two ideas off the top of my head One basic one is a modification of the one you were suggesting. The heroes are working to do something that appears good on its surface, but to those who have more knowledge, is actually a *REALLY* bad idea. This requires throwing in hints of the 'not so greatness' of your main goal, which can be hard... its a fine line between 'someone perceptive might pick up that something isn't quite right', and 'umm... yeah, we saw that coming five levels ago.' Another option is to create a group that is genuinely trying to do good, but in such a way that it really interferes with the party. Overzealous patrols that enforce strict curfews and prevent people from entering places 'for their own safety' (have this be true... there's something really bad in there... but the line 'for their own safety' always causes resentment), or egregious taxes on 'liberated items' to support the almsgiving efforts of the government (I'm sure your party will view anyone who wants to 'tax' their treasure as an antagonist)
#4 wiley15 Aug 11, 2009 13:13:50	When DMing my very first adventure in Eberron (so opinion coming from very limited experience), I found you can cast suspicion on Good Guys simply by setting up an event where they are expected to be present and then not be around when something goes awry. PCs are a suspicious bunch (to be fair they, have relatively few people they actually interact with) and they'll put the absentee quickly into the possible-bad-guy category, even if the GG's reason is communicated and entirely plausible.
#5 ikalos Aug 11, 2009 17:51:30	An idea I have is to have the BBEG really just be an average guy that the Heroes are harassing. Rather comedic in my opinion anyway.
#6 garner_adam Aug 11, 2009 18:00:10	Another option is to create a group that is genuinely trying to do good, but in such a way that it really interferes with the party. Topheh I think you got the right idea there. I could make genuinely good folk anti-adventurer in their nature. The players might hate them and even accept a little help from the bad guys (who are often definitely pro-adventurer). An idea I have is to have the BBEG really just be an average guy that the Heroes are harassing. Rather comedic in my opinion anyway. Ikalos just how many average guys can provide enough combat encounters for an adventuring party!? :P
#7 Fireclave Aug 11, 2009 18:51:02	Shades of Conflict. Edit: But especially this one.
#8 AbdulAlhazred Aug 12, 2009 10:40:10	Well, I can think of two ideas off the top of my head One basic one is a modification of the one you were suggesting. The heroes are working to do something that appears good on its surface, but to those who have more knowledge, is actually a *REALLY* bad idea. This requires throwing in hints of the 'not so greatness' of your main goal, which can be hard... its a fine line between 'someone perceptive might pick up that something isn't quite right', and 'umm... yeah, we saw that coming five levels ago.' Yup, this is a classic. It is quite easy to do. The PCs can be working for some sponsor who is bound and determined to accomplish some goal. The goal itself can be motivated by a desire to do good, but that doesn't mean it will actually turn out very well. For example there could be an inactive demongate someplace which the PCs are told to figure out how to reopen so that the forces of good can go through and foil some horrible demonic plot. It can be made to sound convincingly good, but as the party levels up and makes progress towards their goal they slowly learn just how horribly badly this idea is going to go wrong. There can be other good guys who already know (or suspect) its a bad idea to oppose them as well. At first this other group is seen as evil and probably thinks the PCs are evil as well. Eventually they might find themselves joining forces against the original patron. There are infinite varieties of this of course. The PCs could actually be members of the "Secret order of Gate Watchers" and they could be the ones trying to thwart another group which is the good but misguided NPC adventuring group. Or this other group could be opportunistic and corrupt and going to betray their employers to evil at the penultimate moment. The party could then have to convince the higher ups in their organization to let them reveal secrets to the misguided people to convince them to stop, etc. There are a zillion other variations or elaborations on this, but the basic theme is fairly straightforward and you can find examples of it in plenty of literature.
#9 wancow Aug 17, 2009 14:53:50	One thing I like to use is the character that is ENTIRELY LAWFUL. (it's the big reason I still use Lawful Evil and Lawful Neutral alignments). A guy who is entirely lawful will be loyal entirely to that evil lord because of his oaths. Doesn't mean he's NOT Lawful Good! It simply means he has to follow the rules he swore to... Think of that Horrible Republican or Commie Democrat you love to hate... probably a very good person, just following different rules than you... and looks evil as a result... Similar with Choatic characters. A Chaotic Good character will have a good sense of Self Preservation. Think Han Solo: "It doesn't sound like courage, more like Suicide!"... that said, even a man of Chaotic Character will come through in the end, even though he appears to be mercenary. It's one of the complaints I have about 4E is that they abandoned the whole Alignment Array... but no matter, I know it well enough since 1979...
#10 garner_adam Aug 17, 2009 16:11:44	One thing I like to use is the character that is ENTIRELY LAWFUL. (it's the big reason I still use Lawful Evil and Lawful Neutral alignments). A guy who is entirely lawful will be loyal entirely to that evil lord because of his oaths. Doesn't mean he's NOT Lawful Good! It simply means he has to follow the rules he swore to... Think of that Horrible Republican or Commie Democrat you love to hate... probably a very good person, just following different rules than you... and looks evil as a result... Similar with Choatic characters. A Chaotic Good character will have a good sense of Self Preservation. Think Han Solo: "It doesn't sound like courage, more like Suicide!"... that said, even a man of Chaotic Character will come through in the end, even though he appears to be mercenary. It's one of the complaints I have about 4E is that they abandoned the whole Alignment Array... but no matter, I know it well enough since 1979... Kind of like the noble villian trope in Japanese anime, yah?
#11 wancow Aug 17, 2009 16:12:40	I don't have a TV :D But that sounds like an interesting concept :D
#12 imperial_warth Aug 17, 2009 16:28:20	You can lawful good people look evil if done correctlly. A lawful Good person so strict upon the law that he views the need to eradicate all evils, and then have his or definition of evil begin to slide into the morally gray zones. Or an orginization where the end justifies the means. "A powerful seer says that child could potenially do something evil. It would be best to kill it now to avoid that risk completly." A friend of mine tried to do this once where the person who was supposed to be helping the party was at first acting like an enemy. It was a shame that we killed him before he was able to reveal his true intentions.
#13 wancow Aug 17, 2009 17:04:40	Let me just add this thought: "THE ROAD TO HELL IS PAVED WITH GOOD INTENTIONS" A warning to all Lawful Good people... and politicians...
#14 strand0 Aug 17, 2009 23:44:39	You could also arrange for the PCs to only have prejudiced info sorces about the NPC heroes. So that the PCs act suspicions and maybe even take a job that is in conflict with "those guys." This stuff can last to long, unless you can keep the locals that know these good NPCs from spilling the beans. ;)
#15 yellowdingo Aug 27, 2009 20:05:43	In my current game I've been wanting an opporunity to take advantage of some Eberronesque/Noir themes. In particular I want the "good guys" to be the major antagonists in an adventure for once. Trouble is I'm really not sure about the how to. My first thought is to do a "chase" style campaign where the Heroes are out to get some thing that is very important to the good aligned NPCs and the party. However the NPCs have different views on how to best make use of what the party is chasing after. How do I justify (or the NPC's justify) running against the heroes? (players) How do you make the Good guys look evil? Alvard the Sworder descended the hill toward the village of Eminiy. Field workers, catching a glimpse of his armor and weaponry ceased their toil and gathered together in an armed group while younger children were instructed to retreat to the village for shelter. A voice from the gathered mob demanded his attention. "We dont want your kind here!" Alvard would have raised a protest but for the first stone that struck the side of his head. "Who threw that?" Alvard pulled back his cloak in rage at the unwarranted assault to free his sword arm. "He's a Killer. One of those bandits who butchered Blackwell Village!" The suggestion was soon followed by others in agreement. "That means there are more of them in the treeline." The hail of stones began as the villagers retreated from their field toward the village. Somewhere an alarm sounded. You make their position untenable and the respone of the other guy the utterly hostile victim.