Making the players kill themselves in a dream-- good/bad idea? (Doctor Who inspired) - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Making the players kill themselves in a dream-- good/bad idea? (Doctor Who inspired)

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
twesterm
Apr 25, 2011 21:07:34 ***Thar be Doctor Who Season 5 (previous season) spoilers ahead!***

So The Wife and I have been watching Doctor Who and we're caught up completely now. In season 5, there's an episode called Amy's Choice where The Doctor and his companions find themselves trapped in two dream worlds. Something calling itself The Dream Lord tells them that one of these worlds is the real world and the other is a dream world, it was up to them to figure it out and escape. The only way to escape was to die and both worlds had some unlikely event or thing threatening to kill them. The catch was that if you die in the dream world, you return to the real world. If you die in the real world, well, you're dead.

In the end, The Doctor figured out that the Dream Lord was a darker manifestion of him and both worlds were actually dream worlds because The Dream Lord had power over them in both.

This completely fascinated me and I instantly wanted to put this in my campaign. There's already an entity there that we've already established it can appear and influence them in their dreams so that's part easy to write in. The problem is I don't really know how fair this would be to the players...

I'd be placing them in a situation where they're fighting two losing battles and they have to figure out which one they're going to lose so they can hopefully figure out and win the other one when really they're both dream worlds. So essentually it would be:

Wake up in a world, not sure how they got there

Go to sleep and wake up in another dream world

Both worlds eventually have something bad going on

Time flows in both worlds continuosly (so while asleep in one world, they're awake in the other)

Potential to split the group

Some entity there that taunts and tells them the situation

Does this sound like a fun idea for the players? What are some suggestions for some over-the-top unbelievable things that could maybe be real? How can I make them figure out without explicitely telling them they're both dream worlds?

They're a level 18 group and they are in a world where they also know there are A LOT of bad and weird things going on.
#2
malphaeus
Apr 26, 2011 15:30:58 It could be fun, but it could also be a pretty horrible drag.

So, they figure out one world is the dream, and assume that the other one isn't, because an NPC told them that only one of the realities is a dream. They pick one, thinking it's the right one.

They still end up in a dream world. How do they get out? Making them die in both worlds is heavy handed. Making them succeed at a task in a dream in order to get out, unless it has real world consequences, might make them feel cheated. Figuring it out, that they're both dream worlds, will be tricky. No one other than the Doctor is the Doctor, so that leaves you with only a couple of options. 1) make the world increasingly surreal [hair, flags, cloaks, etc. blow in the opposite direction of the wind, shadows are cast opposite of how they should be, the lighting never, ever changes] 2) make them die by either wearing them out or throwing an obscenely powerful encounter at them, 3) make them do something that will cause them to wake up. I'd imagine you would want to avoid a string of intelligence checks or wisdom checks to come to an epiphany of some kind.

Also, why are they in the dreams? In Amy's Choice it
Show
was a dream pollen that caused their dream state
#3
twesterm
Apr 26, 2011 16:29:53 First off, thanks for the advice, those are some great concerns!

Luckily it has already been established there's an entity that has been screwing with their dreams and has pretty much complete control in their dreams. Since they arrived at this plane the demon has been doing everything from showing them awful visions, making them fight each other, showing them fake futures, and other generally nasty things so at least they do know not everything is at it seems.

They had one encounter where the demon pretty much split them in to and made one of the groups attack the other group (through making the opposing side seem like enemies, simply telling one player to do it, and coercing the third player) and a few of the players have actually seen the demon.

I don't think the first choice they make will be a big deal because whichever one they make will be the "right" choice (in that they will wake up in the other dream world and not be dead). The problem is getting to figure out that second world is a dream world without making it too obvious or not obvious enough.
#4
twesterm
Apr 27, 2011 0:48:07 Nooooo!

Before this I had talked about Doctor Who and nobody seemed to care or said they didn't watch it and even put out some feelers and didn't seem like any of my group was into the show. Tonight I find out two of the players actually are. ;_;

I'm _hoping_ they don't remember that episode and I'm considering sending them a cryptic message asking them that if they recognize me stealing something from an outside source, don't spoil it. I'm not planning on using this dream thing for a few sessions so hopefully they won't be too suspicious. They're on a fetch quest at the moment and the demon wasn't planning on pulling out all the stops to stop them until they got the last piece.
#5
malphaeus
Apr 27, 2011 8:59:46 That's a tricky complication, as that season is pretty recent. I hope your players will respect your wishes, and will also be decent enough to not use that information ICly.

If I think of ways that the story conciet could be modified to be less recognizable, I'll let you know. Right now, I'm too strung out on allergy meds to make much sense. bleh.

#6
Ashel
Apr 28, 2011 7:30:54 Honestly? Don't worry yourself too much over them recognizing it. Players are perceptive and they'll catch references quick - but unless your players are horribly 'nardy or just general jerkwads, the odds are quite good in your favor that it will actually get them more engrossed and interested in solving (or changing) the situation. Just play your cards carefully, change it up enough that your own spin is quite visible, and remember - "Originality is nothing but judicious imitation." Never be afraid to borrow if it improves the story you're telling noticably.
#7
noblesix
Apr 30, 2011 9:44:12 Ashel's right. Sub sole nihil novi est. It's nearly impossible to have an idea that's completely original, and that's fine. Hell, Inception follows the plot nearly identically of a black-and-white Donald Duck comic. What matters is taking an interesting idea and playing around with it, even if it's been done before. Don't blatantly rip it off of course, but it can be fun when your players get the reference material.

Of course, if you think that they'll break the story because of it, then you should definitely make it different than the actual Doctor Who episode; maybe only one world is a dream after all, and the heroes may actually die if they screw up. Maybe even pull in some crazier stuff from something like Inception, where the choice between the two dreams is occuring within another dream; when the heroes make their choice, and even when they escape the second dream-within-a-dream, they may still be stuck in the first dream. Hell, that could be the bad guy's insidious plan all along, making them think that they've escaped the dream(s) when really they're still dreaming.

Actually, I might use that.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 twesterm Apr 25, 2011 21:07:34	*Thar be Doctor Who Season 5 (previous season) spoilers ahead!* So The Wife and I have been watching Doctor Who and we're caught up completely now. In season 5, there's an episode called Amy's Choice where The Doctor and his companions find themselves trapped in two dream worlds. Something calling itself The Dream Lord tells them that one of these worlds is the real world and the other is a dream world, it was up to them to figure it out and escape. The only way to escape was to die and both worlds had some unlikely event or thing threatening to kill them. The catch was that if you die in the dream world, you return to the real world. If you die in the real world, well, you're dead. In the end, The Doctor figured out that the Dream Lord was a darker manifestion of him and both worlds were actually dream worlds because The Dream Lord had power over them in both. This completely fascinated me and I instantly wanted to put this in my campaign. There's already an entity there that we've already established it can appear and influence them in their dreams so that's part easy to write in. The problem is I don't really know how fair this would be to the players... I'd be placing them in a situation where they're fighting two losing battles and they have to figure out which one they're going to lose so they can hopefully figure out and win the other one when really they're both dream worlds. So essentually it would be: Wake up in a world, not sure how they got there Go to sleep and wake up in another dream world Both worlds eventually have something bad going on Time flows in both worlds continuosly (so while asleep in one world, they're awake in the other) Potential to split the group Some entity there that taunts and tells them the situation Does this sound like a fun idea for the players? What are some suggestions for some over-the-top unbelievable things that could maybe be real? How can I make them figure out without explicitely telling them they're both dream worlds? They're a level 18 group and they are in a world where they also know there are A LOT of bad and weird things going on.
#2 malphaeus Apr 26, 2011 15:30:58	It could be fun, but it could also be a pretty horrible drag. So, they figure out one world is the dream, and assume that the other one isn't, because an NPC told them that only one of the realities is a dream. They pick one, thinking it's the right one. They still end up in a dream world. How do they get out? Making them die in both worlds is heavy handed. Making them succeed at a task in a dream in order to get out, unless it has real world consequences, might make them feel cheated. Figuring it out, that they're both dream worlds, will be tricky. No one other than the Doctor is the Doctor, so that leaves you with only a couple of options. 1) make the world increasingly surreal [hair, flags, cloaks, etc. blow in the opposite direction of the wind, shadows are cast opposite of how they should be, the lighting never, ever changes] 2) make them die by either wearing them out or throwing an obscenely powerful encounter at them, 3) make them do something that will cause them to wake up. I'd imagine you would want to avoid a string of intelligence checks or wisdom checks to come to an epiphany of some kind. Also, why are they in the dreams? In Amy's Choice it Show was a dream pollen that caused their dream state
#3 twesterm Apr 26, 2011 16:29:53	First off, thanks for the advice, those are some great concerns! Luckily it has already been established there's an entity that has been screwing with their dreams and has pretty much complete control in their dreams. Since they arrived at this plane the demon has been doing everything from showing them awful visions, making them fight each other, showing them fake futures, and other generally nasty things so at least they do know not everything is at it seems. They had one encounter where the demon pretty much split them in to and made one of the groups attack the other group (through making the opposing side seem like enemies, simply telling one player to do it, and coercing the third player) and a few of the players have actually seen the demon. I don't think the first choice they make will be a big deal because whichever one they make will be the "right" choice (in that they will wake up in the other dream world and not be dead). The problem is getting to figure out that second world is a dream world without making it too obvious or not obvious enough.
#4 twesterm Apr 27, 2011 0:48:07	Nooooo! Before this I had talked about Doctor Who and nobody seemed to care or said they didn't watch it and even put out some feelers and didn't seem like any of my group was into the show. Tonight I find out two of the players actually are. ;_; I'm _hoping_ they don't remember that episode and I'm considering sending them a cryptic message asking them that if they recognize me stealing something from an outside source, don't spoil it. I'm not planning on using this dream thing for a few sessions so hopefully they won't be too suspicious. They're on a fetch quest at the moment and the demon wasn't planning on pulling out all the stops to stop them until they got the last piece.
#5 malphaeus Apr 27, 2011 8:59:46	That's a tricky complication, as that season is pretty recent. I hope your players will respect your wishes, and will also be decent enough to not use that information ICly. If I think of ways that the story conciet could be modified to be less recognizable, I'll let you know. Right now, I'm too strung out on allergy meds to make much sense. bleh.
#6 Ashel Apr 28, 2011 7:30:54	Honestly? Don't worry yourself too much over them recognizing it. Players are perceptive and they'll catch references quick - but unless your players are horribly 'nardy or just general jerkwads, the odds are quite good in your favor that it will actually get them more engrossed and interested in solving (or changing) the situation. Just play your cards carefully, change it up enough that your own spin is quite visible, and remember - "Originality is nothing but judicious imitation." Never be afraid to borrow if it improves the story you're telling noticably.
#7 noblesix Apr 30, 2011 9:44:12	Ashel's right. Sub sole nihil novi est. It's nearly impossible to have an idea that's completely original, and that's fine. Hell, Inception follows the plot nearly identically of a black-and-white Donald Duck comic. What matters is taking an interesting idea and playing around with it, even if it's been done before. Don't blatantly rip it off of course, but it can be fun when your players get the reference material. Of course, if you think that they'll break the story because of it, then you should definitely make it different than the actual Doctor Who episode; maybe only one world is a dream after all, and the heroes may actually die if they screw up. Maybe even pull in some crazier stuff from something like Inception, where the choice between the two dreams is occuring within another dream; when the heroes make their choice, and even when they escape the second dream-within-a-dream, they may still be stuck in the first dream. Hell, that could be the bad guy's insidious plan all along, making them think that they've escaped the dream(s) when really they're still dreaming. Actually, I might use that.