Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 the_yakk May 05, 2011 13:20:04	I'm unhappy with how marks and immediate actions work in 4e.  So this is an attempt to do a cleaning up. Marking: When a combatant marks a target, they interfere with the target's ability to attack other combatants.  If a marked creature makes an attack that does not include any of the creatures that marked it, it is considered "violating the mark"(s).  When you violate your marks, you take a -2 penalty to your attack roll (this does not stack), and often trigger additional effects. Changes: Note that marking now stacks much like the Defender Aura does. We then follow this up with a cleaning up of defender powers: Ie, the aura is now compatible with marking: Defender Aura + Class Feature Minor Action + At-Will Range: Personal Effect: You activate an aura 1 that lasts until you fall unconsious, or end it with a minor action.  While in the aura, enemies are marked by you. I did away with "types of marks": Divine Sanction + Paladin Feature Opportunity Action + At-Will Range: Close Burst 10 Trigger: Your mark is violated Target: The creature marked Effect: You deal 3+your charisma modifier damage, increasing to 6+charisma modifier at level 11 and 9+charisma modifier at level 21. Divine Challenge + Paladin Feature Minor Action + Per-Round Range: Close Burst 5 Target: One enemy in burst Effect: You mark the creature.  This mark lasts until you end a turn without attacking the target or ending your turn adjacent to the target. Paladin powers that refer to "marked with divine sanction" simply mark the target.  Paladin powers that effect "divine challenge" effect either challenge or sanction (only one makes sense usually). Fighters are reworked as well: Combat Challenge + Fighter Feature Free Action + At-Will Trigger: You attack a target Target: The target attacked Effect: You mark the target until the end of your next turn. Combat Challenge Attack + Fighter Feature Opportunity Action + Per-Round Range: Melee 1 Trigger: A creature violates your mark, or an adjacent creature marked by you shifts Target: The marked creature Effect: You make a basic melee attack on the target (if in range) Combat Superiority + Fighter Feature Opportunity Action + At-Will Trigger: A creature provokes an opportunity attack from you. Target: The provoking creature Attack: Strength + Wisdom vs AC Hit: 1[W]+Strength damage, and if the target is moving, the move action ends.  The damage increases to 2[W]+Strength at level 21. This model for fighters is more power-centric. As types of marks are gone, swordmages are changed as follows: Swordmage Aegis + Swordmage Feature Minor Action + At-Will Range: Close burst 2 Target: One creature Effect: The target is marked until the end of your encounter, or until you use this power again. Aegis of Shielding + Swordmage Feature Opportunity Action + Per-Round Range: Close Burst 10 Trigger: A creature violates your mark and hits Target: The marked creature Effect: The damage is reduced by 5 plus your constitution modifier, increasing to 10+con at level 11 and 15+con at level 21. Aegis of Assault + Swordmage Feature Opportunity Action + Per-Round Range: Close Burst 10 Trigger: A creature violates your mark and hits Target: The marked creature Effect: You teleport to a square adjacent to the target, and make a basic melee attack on the target. Now, as we are doing away with immediate reactions (as much as we can), powers that teleport on a mark trigger just got much more powerful.  This results in a big boost to Aegis of Ensnarement, balanced by making it an attack vs will: Aegis of Ensnaring + Swordmage Feature Opportunity Action + Per-Round + Implement Range: Close Burst 10 Trigger: A creature violates your mark and hits Target: The marked creature Attack: Int vs Will Hit: The target is teleported a number of squares equal to your constitution bonus closer to you.  If this makes the attack no longer legal, the attack fails.  In addition, the target grants combat advantage to your allies until the end of its next turn. Wardens needed a bunch of reworking.  I took their 2 mark punishments and folded them into one: Warden's Fury + Warden Feature Opportunity Action + Per-Round + Weapon Range: Close burst 5 Trigger: A creature violates your mark Target: The marked creature Attack: Strength vs Fortitude Hit: Pull the target 1 square, and the target is slowed and cannot shift before the end of its next turn.  If the attack is no longer valid, it fails.  If the target is within your weapon's reach, deal 1[W]+Strength damage to the creature, increasing to 2[W]+Strength at level 21. Battleminds needed the least work -- just changing from a Reaction to a Opportunity action: Mind Spike + Battlemind Feature Opportunity Action + Per-Round + Force, Psionic, Psychic Range: Melee 1 Trigger: A creature violates your mark and deals damage Target: The marked creature Effect: The target takes force and psychic damage equal to the damage that the triggering attack dealt. Essentials style defender's punishment powers now refer to "mark violation" instead of "aura violation", but otherwise match this pattern. Thoughts?
#2 Eisenritter May 05, 2011 15:12:32	It isn't broken, so why are you trying to fix it?  You're trying to force an overcomplicated solution onto an entirely subjective problem. Here's my suggestion:  You don't like how marks and immediates work?  Don't play a defender. Easy fix, and best of all, it doesn't force your subjectivity on everyone at the table.
#3 the_yakk May 05, 2011 15:54:38	I'm puzzled: Why would I be homebrewing when I'm playing a character? In any case, does anyone see any problem with these mechanics beyond "they are different, and thus bad?" There are a few good things (in my opinion) that fall out of this: 1> A mark is a mark is a mark.  This simplifies the amount of state that is stored with effects (ie, under the standard rules, the DM should be told all details of a mark's punishment when it is placed on the monster, which takes up table bandwidth -- and a given defender can often have 2 or 3 different kinds of marks active at once). 2> As it stands, Weaponmasters/Wardens/Battleminds all use "a mark is a mark is a mark" style marks.  Swordmages/Paladins mostly use "marks with riders", and to them a basic mark does little.  This flattens that a bunch. 3> Most 4e players when they start up find the difference between Opportunity/Immediate action split to be overly complex and confusing.  This is one step towards removing this.  You can see the same design goal in Essentials products from WotC. A per-round opportunity action is close in balance point and power to an immediate interrupt, yet doesn't add a new category of implicit resource tracking. The downside to the above houserules is that it no longer matches the books' text. Are there other downsides? I'm unhappy with the Warden changes, where I merged the two mark punishement mechanics.  I don't want "you can use one of these in a round" type text (because it seems inelegant).  Maybe I should just give wardens the two powers, and have each of them usable 1/round? I could also use "after the triggering action is resolved" text to generate "immediate reaction" style opportunity actions.
#4 Eisenritter May 05, 2011 18:18:06	Okay, first?  Your "oh, it's easier for new players" argument is invalid, or at the very least, it's ill-informed.  Houserules are the easiest way to screw with newbies' heads; the best way for them to learn is to play by the book.  That is, a fighter (weaponmaster) functions exactly as written in PH1 plus errata, a paladin functions exactly as written in PH1 plus errata, and so forth.  Introducing your "no, I don't like how they work so they work this way" rules is only going to discourage them. Beyond that, mashing immediates and OAs together, quite simply, turns your Defender from a useful commodity into a bad Striker with fancy off-action hits.  You're better off using that energy to find a coherent way to explain the difference. Plus, and this is my own subjective opinion much as your reason for doing this is yours, breaking it up into two or three powers for each mark is quite a bit clumsier than the way the marking mechanics are written already.
#5 Vorne May 05, 2011 22:50:34	Most of your fixes seem to just be renaming.  For example, you don't change how divine challenge or divine sanction work, you just renamed them to mark.  It's fine, just not a real change of anything.  Similarly, you changed the immediate interrupt punishments into per round opportunity attacks...i.e., immediate interrupts.  The only major change I can see here is that you weakened fighters a bit (currently, if a fighter has a ranged enemy marked and the enemy shifts away, the fighter gets an immediate interrupt.  If the ranged person remains in his weapon range for whatever reason and decides to use a ranged attack against an ally, the fighter gets an opportunity attack - two attacks that same round.  Under your rule, his opportunity attack would be blown after the shift, so the ranged person can range attack with impunity.  The battlemind is also weakened under your rules in a similar situation. You also weaken heavy blade opportunity.  A fighter under the above rules has the choice between using an at will for an opportunity attack, or getting his wisdom bonus and stopping movement.  Under standard rules, a fighter would get all of the above. You do some random beefing up to Warden with your changes to his mark punishment.  If you had not intended to make his punishment significantly stronger, you might take a second look at what you've done and rework it.
#6 pluisjen May 06, 2011 7:00:20	If marks stack then an all-Defender party becomes terribly powerful. Chug down 5 marks on a target and it's taking a guaruanteed -8 on attack rolls and takes 24+ Radiant damage from a party of Paladins. That's very easy to abuse the hell out of.