martial art feats please give feed back

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

zagora_01

Aug 02, 2008 7:12:11
Improved Unarmed Strike
You are proficient in using your hands and feet as weapons. Your unarmed strikes have the following statistics.

Weapon Prof Damage Group Properties
Unarmed Strike +3 1d6 Unarmed Off Hand


Dynamic Unarmed Strike
Requirement for use: Improved Unarmed Strike
You have learned to use your hands and feet in such a way as too mimic the properties of other weapons. The purpose of this feat is to allow you to use your unarmed strike with powers that specify certain weapon properties.
Effect: Choose one weapon property from the list below and you can now add that property to your unarmed strikes. You may now use your unarmed strikes with powers that require weapons with those properties. When using these properties you lose the off-hand property for that attack unless otherwise specified.

High Crit: You know how to hit in the vital areas causing more damage on critical hits. This property is an addition to the off-hand property already present.

Heavy Thrown: By focusing your mystic ability (i.e. ki, divine, primal, psionic, elemental, shadow but not martial and it must be a power source you already have access to) you have learned to project your attacks in the form of the indicated energy and throw them at your enemies a number of times equal to 1+ the ability modifier used for the specified power source.
Requirement for use: You must have access to the indicated power source.

Weapon Prof Damage Range Group Properties
Unarmed Strike +3 1d6 5/10 Unarmed Heavy Thrown

Light Thrown: By focusing your mystic ability (i.e. ki, divine, primal, psionic, elemental, shadow but not martial and it must be a power source you already have access to) you have learned to project your attacks in the form of the indicated energy and throw them at your enemies a number of times equal to 1+ the ability modifier used for the specified power source.
Requirement for use: You must have access to the indicated power source.

Weapon Prof Damage Range Group Properties
Unarmed Strike +3 1d4 5/10 Unarmed Off-hand, Light Thrown

Light Blade: By using precise and complicated strikes you can use your strikes to imitate small blades. By doing this however you reduce the amount of damage your unarmed strike inflicts.

Weapon Prof Damage Group Properties
Unarmed Strike +3 1d6 Unarmed Off-hand, Light Blade

Heavy Blade: By using precise and complicated strikes you can use your strikes to imitate heavy blades.

Weapon Prof Damage Group Properties
Unarmed Strike +3 1d8 Unarmed Heavy Blade

Additional Power
You add an extra power use.
Effect: Choose a power from your list available powers that is not the highest level power you can use for the same category, and you may now use that power in addition to your normal allotted powers.
Requirement for use: Paragon Level

Additional Encounter Power Use
By expending an action point you are able to re-use an encounter power that has already been expended
Requirement for use: Paragon Level.

Additional Daily Power Use
By expending two action points you are able to re-use a daily power of your choice.
Requirement for use: Paragon Level

Cross-class Powers
This is still a work in progress. I want to create powers that don’t belong to a specific class. The purpose of this is to allow someone like a ranger or rogue to take a power source feat to gain access to another power source like divine or ki and then select powers that use that source.
#2

Saric

Aug 02, 2008 8:34:15
Improved Unarmed Strike
You are proficient in using your hands and feet as weapons. Your unarmed strikes have the following statistics.

Weapon Prof Damage Group Properties
Unarmed Strike +3 1d6 Unarmed Off Hand

I wouldn't put a +3 proficiency bonus, considering the fact that you don't actually need to wield an unarmed attack. A +2 is more suitable.

Dynamic Unarmed Strike
You have learned to use your hands and feet in such a way as too mimic the properties of other weapons. The purpose of this feat is to allow you to use your unarmed strike with powers that specify certain weapon properties.
Effect: Choose one weapon property from the list below and you can now add that property to your unarmed strikes. You may now use your unarmed strikes with powers that require weapons with those properties. When using these properties you lose the off-hand property for that attack unless otherwise specified.

Versatile: You use your whole body when making your attack in order to provide more damage.

Weapon Prof Damage Group Properties
Unarmed Strike +3 1d8 Unarmed Versatile

High Crit: You know how to hit in the vital areas causing more damage on critical hits. This property is an addition to the off-hand property already present.

Heavy Thrown: By focusing your mystic ability (i.e. ki, divine, primal, psionic, elemental, or shadow) you have learned to project your attacks and throw them at your enemies.
Requirement for use: You must have access to the indicated power source.

Weapon Prof Damage Range Group Properties
Unarmed Strike +3 1d6 5/10 Unarmed Heavy Thrown

Light Thrown: By focusing your ki, divine, primal, psionic, elemental, or shadow power you have learned to project your attacks and throw them at your enemies.
Requirement for use: You must have access to the indicated power source.

Weapon Prof Damage Range Group Properties
Unarmed Strike +3 1d4 5/10 Unarmed Off-hand, Light Thrown

Light Blade: By using precise and complicated strikes you can use your strikes to imitate small blades. By doing this however you reduce the amount of damage your unarmed strike inflicts.

Weapon Prof Damage Group Properties
Unarmed Strike +3 1d6 Unarmed Off-hand, Light Blade

Heavy Blade: By using precise and complicated strikes you can use your strikes to imitate heavy blades.

Weapon Prof Damage Group Properties
Unarmed Strike +3 1d8 Unarmed Heavy Blade

This feat is overpowered. First you give a bonus to damage because you increased the d6 to d8. Then you also apply weapon properties on top of that in the same feat. You also didn't mention which tier it was.

You probably should make separate,specific feats that give unarmed unique properties in their own right. I'd suppose a feat that gives unarmed attacks the high crit property would be reasonable. Or another feat that allows unarmed attacks to be considered like a light blade for purposes of certain attacks.
And what is the point of having the "off-hand" property with an unarmed strike? I fail to see the benefit.

Also, to be honest allowing you to use your unarmed attacks as a ranged thrown weapon is just plain overpowered and silly. What is a player going to say when he uses the feat, "I throw my fist at the monster." ...


Note: the reason I say overpowered is because you don't need to carry any more ammunition as long as you have a portion of your body intact. "I attack a monster 5 squares away with my toe."


Additional Power
You add an extra power use.
Effect: Choose a power from your list available powers that is not the highest level power you can use for the same category, and you may now use that power in addition to your normal allotted powers.
Requirement for use: Paragon Level

I think the designers specifically put a cap on powers known for a reason. If they wanted players to have more powers available they would have put it in. Also bear in mind that characters are already gaining more powers from paragon paths.

Additional Encounter Power Use
By expending an action point you are able to re-use an encounter power that has already been expended
Requirement for use: Paragon Level.

Additional Daily Power Use
By expending two action points you are able to re-use a daily power of your choice.
Requirement for use: Paragon Level

Considering the fact you can't spend more than one action point per encounter, this additional daily feat is useless. You have to specify in the feat that this is an exception.

I'm unsure of how unbalancing allowing extra encounter powers with action points would be in a fight. However, that benefit seems to be the hallmark of a few paragon paths and probably shouldn't be relegated to a feat. Since lets be honest, who wouldn't pick up either of these feats?
#3

wyld_mutation

Aug 02, 2008 8:42:28
I'll say this to your "needing no ammunition is overpowered": Magical thrown weapons automatically return to you. And I'm going to put a house rule through that magical bows need no arrows. (Just certain ones though.)
#4

zagora_01

Aug 02, 2008 8:51:35
Good feed back

I chose +3 because your are using a feat and if you compare the rapier which is a light weapon superior weapon it has a +3 and does 1d8 but does not have the off-hand prof. Also, its what wizards gave it in their article.

The mimicing of the light and heavy blades is to allow you to use an unarmed attack with powers that specifiy light and heavy blades like rogue powers. Its to give a player options to convert existing characters into martial artist using the PHB classes.

Much like the eldritch blast or magic missile the idea behind the range attacks is to simulate a ki blast or a blast using one of the power sources given. Its to give the supernateral feel. remember the divine fist or the arcane fist?

I'm willing to bet that later in the production cycle they will come up with feats that give extra powers. They already gave them to some races. Remember book of nine swords. I think its waiting to come out in one of the ther books. It doesn't break the game because they are lower level powers and you are spending a feat. In my opinion anyway.

Your right about the action points. I'll have to address that.
#5

zagora_01

Aug 02, 2008 8:59:23
Here is a thought regarding the ammunition issue. since it uses a power source you can base the number of uses on the ability associated with the power. Question is to make it daily or encounter and how many uses.
#6

Saric

Aug 02, 2008 9:18:28
I'll say this to your "needing no ammunition is overpowered": Magical thrown weapons automatically return to you. And I'm going to put a house rule through that magical bows need no arrows. (Just certain ones though.)

Kinda hard to hold all those weapons in your hands if you use more than one in a round. As written, you don't need hands at all for these "thrown" weapons.

Good feed back

I chose +3 because your are using a feat and if you compare the rapier which is a light weapon superior weapon it has a +3 and does 1d8 but does not have the off-hand prof. Also, its what wizards gave it in their article.

Yeah but the article did it for monks... A monk should be more highly trained in martial arts and thats why I believe he gave it a +3.

The mimicing of the light and heavy blades is to allow you to use an unarmed attack with powers that specifiy light and heavy blades like rogue powers. Its to give a player options to convert existing characters into martial artist using the PHB classes.

Much like the eldritch blast or magic missile the idea behind the range attacks is to simulate a ki blast or a blast using one of the power sources given. Its to give the supernateral feel. remember the divine fist or the arcane fist?

You didn't state that in your post. this is what you wrote.
"Light Thrown: By focusing your ki, divine, primal, psionic, elemental, or shadow power you have learned to project your attacks and throw them at your enemies.
Requirement for use: You must have access to the indicated power source."

Perhaps you should reword it so it sounds like what you're trying to make it do is a ki blast rather than channel your elbow somewhere.



I'm willing to bet that later in the production cycle they will come up with feats that give extra powers. They already gave them to some races. Remember book of nine swords. I think its waiting to come out in one of the ther books. It doesn't break the game because they are lower level powers and you are spending a feat. In my opinion anyway.

Your right about the action points. I'll have to address that.

Put it this way, I don't think a feat should grant more uses to powers beyond the stated number allowed.

For example, the wizard has access to more daily and utility powers, but is limited in the number of them he can actually use in the day.

If the feat mimicked that in a way, then it might be reasonable.
#7

zagora_01

Aug 02, 2008 9:31:59
I think maybe making the thrown weapon mimic only useable 3+the ability mod of the power per encounter might work. Remember its not as powerful as a power.

I don't want to call it ki blast because it might not use the ki power source as stated in the feat description.

It didn't translate well in the paste but the purpose of the feats were described under dynamic unarmed strike which is the actual feat name.

Yes it was for monks, but right now there are no monks and monks and ninjas are really just priest and rogues that use unarmed attacks as well as weapons. 2nd edition didn't even have monks. They just came out with a martial arts proficiency. These feats are designed to give the current classes a martial artis feel should you wish it.

great feed back though please keep it up.
#8

wyld_mutation

Aug 02, 2008 9:32:58
Magical weapons return when thrown. After that it's up to the DM to decide if they return fast enougfh that you can use them multiple times.

And with Quick Draw you draw the weapons as part of the action.

Therefore either way there's a workaround so there's nothing OP about the ki blast feats.

Tack on: "Must have a free hand" for the ki blast. It's no different from a dagger with Quick Draw. Or rather a Shortbow.
#9

Saric

Aug 02, 2008 10:22:35
Magical weapons return when thrown. After that it's up to the DM to decide if they return fast enougfh that you can use them multiple times.

And with Quick Draw you draw the weapons as part of the action.

I'm talking about multiple target attacks.

Quoted from the Phb page 270 under ranged attacks for multiple targets:


If you’re using a projectile weapon to make a
ranged attack against multiple targets, you need one
piece of ammunition for each target, and if you’re
using thrown weapons, you need one for each target.


Case in point, you probably can't afford so many magic weapons to toss around, nor have enough free hands available when they all return. The feat as written allows you to circumvent that because you're using "thrown" unarmed attacks.
#10

wyld_mutation

Aug 02, 2008 10:50:34
Nobody said that they don'r return "instantly"

You can't enchant your fists, so there is nothing OP in turning your punches into Shortbows. Since it costs a feat in the first place it's about on par in overall damage with a dagger and weapon focus isn't it?

No self respecting ranger would be caught low on ammo. And since most Ammo is so miniscule in cost as to be negligible in overall use there is no real problem getting "free" ammo.

Is it OP that Magical Bows get to add their magic to every shot? No. So what's wrong with non-magical fists being "throwable"?
#11

zagora_01

Aug 02, 2008 11:35:34
Well, I think there would be something that allows you to enchant your fist. Maybe a tattoo or glove, but the point is it cost two feats to be able to do it. unarmed strike (forgot to put that in the pre-requisite) and dynamic unarmed strike-light thrown. By spending these feats you get the equivelent of a rogue using a shuriken. It is really more for flavor and preference because if you get right down to it, there is no real advantage to unarmed strikes over weapons.

I will edit the original post with the changes.
#12

Saric

Aug 02, 2008 12:33:01
Nobody said that they don'r return "instantly"

You can't enchant your fists, so there is nothing OP in turning your punches into Shortbows. Since it costs a feat in the first place it's about on par in overall damage with a dagger and weapon focus isn't it?

If I were to create an unarmed system, one of the first things I would do is make magic items specifically to grant enhancement bonuses to attack and damage for unarmed attacks.
Thus if no magic items made for unarmed attacks makes having this feat sub-par. Why? because it will end up missing all the time at higher levels when attacking because of a lack of enhancement bonuses.

So as you can see, they are needed.

No, its not overpowered at first glance.
However as written, you could be tied up or have your both your arms severed or be holding a machete and a cigarette and yet still manage to throw a "kick" or a "headbutt" 5 squares away.

Whereas a ranger in that same predicament can't use his teeth to pull the string of his bow that is lying on the ground.


Is it OP that Magical Bows get to add their magic to every shot? No. So what's wrong with non-magical fists being "throwable"?

Its just plain silly thats why. :D
Thankfully that is not what the op seems to be trying to do. He seems to be wanting to throw energy (rather than an elbow, kick or pimp slap) as a ranged attack but use unarmed attack damage/bonuses in its place. My suggestion was to alter the wording of the feat to avert confusion and because it sounds silly as written.
#13

zagora_01

Aug 02, 2008 12:41:17
The feat doesnt state that he is throwing his fist. He is projecting his power source. The wizard spell magic missle does not state that he has to have his hands free. He doesn't need a wand either. At least, I couldn't find the part in the book that said he did. Only characters with surpernatural power sources can use the feat. Martial cannot. Why, because its just plain silly.
#14

wyld_mutation

Aug 02, 2008 12:47:08
I see the point you're trying to make. The only point I was trying to make is that giving an "unarmed" character a thrown weapon isn't much of a problem.

Note that I don't like the current wording of the feat, I just don't believe that the feat is overpowered. It gives you a shortbow, and it costs a feat. The only real difference is this shotbow is invisible and has "infinite" ammo. Then again "infinite" ammo has been done in the Warforged article.

A more proper wording of the feats would be:

Power Blast
You have learned to channel your energies into a burst of power from your *fists*.
Requirement: Non-Martial power source
Effect: You treat your unarmed weapon as if it had the Light Thrown property, it has a range of 5/10.

I see no confusion as to when you can use it and when you can't now. You may use your unarmed attacks at range. Just like a dagger or bow. More like the bow than the dagger, but they're effectively the same.It's only available when you can make an attack.
#15

Saric

Aug 02, 2008 13:00:18
The feat doesnt state that he is throwing his fist. He is projecting his power source. The wizard spell magic missle does not state that he has to have his hands free. He doesn't need a wand either. At least, I couldn't find the part in the book that said he did. Only characters with surpernatural power sources can use the feat. Martial cannot. Why, because its just plain silly.

Heavy Thrown: By focusing your mystic ability (i.e. ki, divine, primal, psionic, elemental, or shadow) you have learned to project your attacks and throw them at your enemies.
Requirement for use: You must have access to the indicated power source.

You weren't specfic in the original wording like you could have said, "choose one of the following power sources", or "choose any power source other than martial." Then say, "You throw mystical energy of your chosen power source as a basic ranged attack, using your unarmed strike to channel the energy etc etc etc.

Thus that is all that I'm asking for, just be more specific with the wording.
#16

zagora_01

Aug 02, 2008 13:30:57
Understood, that was the whole purpose of asking for feedback. Thanks
#17

Saric

Aug 02, 2008 13:34:15
Understood, that was the whole purpose of asking for feedback. Thanks

np. Keep up the good work
#18

wyld_mutation

Aug 02, 2008 13:36:21
Yah I second the "good work"

And raise you "excellent flavor" (or maybe I mean implementation...)