Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zarba_mindblade Sep 10, 2009 2:53:38	Hello all! I know a lot of people have tried this, but I hope to create a martial controller that is unique in that it is NOT a trapsmith, or an engineer, or anything else along those lines. So here is what I have so far:   BLADESAGE "I am my own army." Role: Controller. Using your natural quickness, you wield multiple blades for multiple opponents. Power Source: Martial. You were trained by a master to wield a variety of weapons against many foes, thus greatly honing your reflexes. Key Abilities: Dexterity, Wisdom, Strength Armor Proficiencies: Cloth. (recently edited) Weapon Proficiencies: Simple light blades, simple heavy blades, military light blades, military heavy blades. (recently edited) Bonus to Defense: +2 Reflex Hit Points at 1st Level: 12 + Constitution score Hit Points per Level Gained: 5 Healing Surges per Day: 6 + Constitution modifier Trained Skills: From the class skills list below, choose four trained skills at 1st level. Class Skills: Acrobatics (Dex), Athletics (Str), Endurance (Con), Heal (Wis), History (Int), Insight (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Perception (Wis), Streetwise (Cha) Build Options: Observing bladesage, aggressive bladesage Class Features: Battledancer, Flashing Blades, Path of the Sage (path of the observer or path of the aggressor), Signature Style   There's the first entry, and I'll post more after I sleep, as it's 3:53 in the morning here. See ya!
#2 Qube Sep 10, 2009 5:57:22	actually, skirmishers are also quite popular ... maybe you could check out the martial artist or the tamer for ideas
#3 pluisjen Sep 10, 2009 6:19:58	Looks very restricting to me, not being able to wear armor or use a non-sword. It's ok to get them from the get-go, but it should be possible to obtain them later if you like.
#4 ekio Sep 10, 2009 8:18:40	I haven't seen a trapsmith or engineer class in a while. (Other than mine.) The explorer attempted it, but it felt out of place. Skirmishers are definitely the leader of the pack when it comes to martial controller concepts.
#5 chanter_hound Sep 10, 2009 12:25:12	yay! I got linked! :D
#6 Tony_Vargas Sep 10, 2009 14:12:38	Starting with Cloth is fine - controllers are supposed to favor offense over defense - but there's no need to restrict it.  Wizards can get leather or even hide proficiency if they like, too.
#7 zarba_mindblade Sep 10, 2009 15:49:40	Well, it looks like you people have been busy... I'll admit that I've been out of touch with the forums... The reason I restrict the proficiencies for armor is quite simple really: It would be too difficult to perform the motions and steps that bladesages frequently do if one were in armor, though I could do something like this with the Battledancer feature: Battledancer (recently edited) While you are not wearing heavy armor, you gain a bonus to AC equal to the number of enemies adjacent to you. That way I could just restrict the use of heavy armor. I restrict weapons because I used the table for fighters, the one where it lists the stats that go along with each type of weapon, and found that light and heavy blades fit the class more, with it being Dex based and all. Sound alright?
#8 pluisjen Sep 10, 2009 15:53:19	Well, it looks like you people have been busy... I'll admit that I've been out of touch with the forums... The reason I restrict the proficiencies for armor is quite simple really: It would be too difficult to perform the motions and steps that bladesages frequently do if one were in armor, though I could do something like this with the Battledancer feature: Battledancer While wearing no armor or cloth armor, you gain a bonus to AC equal to the number of enemies within a number of squares of you equal to half your Dexterity modifier. I restrict weapons because I used the table for fighters, the one where it lists the stats that go along with each type of weapon, and found that light and heavy blades fit the class more, with it being Dex based and all. Sound alright? Battledancer is really powerful. I'd restrict it to just adjacent enemies, that's quite strong enough. I can understand the swords and armor thing, I just find them restricting, even if they fir the flavor. I mean; doesn't the Leather Armor Profiency Feat symbolize that even though your movements don't work all that great in armor, you still managed to pull it off? Same thing for taken prof. in a weapon; you just trained until you managed to fight with an axe as well as with your sword.
#9 zarba_mindblade Sep 10, 2009 19:05:40	Your points have been taken into account, and I have edited some of the features. I'm still not sure on the weapon restrictions, so I'm leaving them as is for now. Also, I've got a new feature that is up for review: Flashing Blades On your turn, you can draw or sheath a light blade or a heavy blade as a free action, instead of a minor action. And I've also got one Path of the Sage done: Path of the Observer: When you take the total defense action, you gain a bonus to your next attack roll equal to your Wisdom modifier. This bonus is not cumulative. (recently edited) That's it for now. What do y'all think?
#10 Tony_Vargas Sep 11, 2009 0:39:04	I definitely like the concept of Path of the Observer, but, it's probably too much lasting the whole encounter.  A secondary stat /can/ be pretty high.  Can you imagine what you could do with that feature and (since the class's powers are DEX based, right?) an elf?  An 16 in two stats is quite doable.  18 in both after racials, means a +8 to hit/+4 damage all combat, just for sacrificing initiative on the first round.  I'd recomend having the bonus from the feature aply to one round (from the start of a round, until the start of the next, so you can get in an interrupt or some OAs with it, too), chosen at the start of the desired round.  Alternately, a +1 attack bonus, lasting 1 round/point of WIS bonus, if you give up initiative could also work .  That might be closer to what you have in mind.  Maybe you could even 'recharge' it by skipping a turn.  Consider that other classes have features that give them a mere conditional +1, like Prime Shot or Weapon Talent.  Flashing Blades isn't much of an improvement over quickdraw (in fact, there are times when it wouldn't be as good).  Though, being able to put a weapon away for free is nice.   Oh, and don't worry about keeping these guys in light armor:  if DEX is thier primary attack stat, they'll stay in light armor!
#11 zarba_mindblade Sep 11, 2009 2:27:16	I definitely like the concept of Path of the Observer, but, it's probably too much lasting the whole encounter.  A secondary stat /can/ be pretty high.  Can you imagine what you could do with that feature and (since the class's powers are DEX based, right?) an elf?  An 16 in two stats is quite doable.  18 in both after racials, means a +8 to hit/+4 damage all combat, just for sacrificing initiative on the first round.  I'd recomend having the bonus from the feature aply to one round (from the start of a round, until the start of the next, so you can get in an interrupt or some OAs with it, too), chosen at the start of the desired round.  Alternately, a +1 attack bonus, lasting 1 round/point of WIS bonus, if you give up initiative could also work .  That might be closer to what you have in mind.  Maybe you could even 'recharge' it by skipping a turn.  Consider that other classes have features that give them a mere conditional +1, like Prime Shot or Weapon Talent.  Flashing Blades isn't much of an improvement over quickdraw (in fact, there are times when it wouldn't be as good).  Though, being able to put a weapon away for free is nice.   Oh, and don't worry about keeping these guys in light armor:  if DEX is thier primary attack stat, they'll stay in light armor! First of all, I'm glad you like my idea for the first Path, and perhaps you are right about it being too powerful currently. However, the idea of a +1 to just attack seems...lacking. Maybe I can make it a bonus to attack rolls equal to half your Wisdom modifier, or perhaps make it +1, but add an extra ability, maybe throw in a third at-will power based on which Path you choose, kind of like the druid, which I was going to do originally, but forgot about. I've also got to consider that you can use this option only once per day, and a lot of daily powers last until the end of the encounter. Second of all, Flashing Blades may seem underpowered, but I honestly thought it would be quite the opposite. I mean, a bloody lot of the bladesage powers, even a few of the at-wills, target multiple creatures, or make multiple attacks. And later on, the number of creatures you can target and the number of attacks you can make won't be limited by the number of limbs you have. It's more a requirement to use a lot of the bladesage powers. Finally, I'm aware that most people won't care about my restriction on heavy armor, but for the sake of roleplaying, I have to restrict it. It just would not make sense otherwise, same with the weapon restriction. That's what I think on these issues. What about the rest of you?
#12 pluisjen Sep 11, 2009 2:44:34	Powers with a fixed duration have all but vanished from 4e, so I'd go with adding the bonus until the end of the next turn. That said, the concept is interesting.
#13 Qube Sep 11, 2009 4:00:07	However, the idea of a +1 to just attack seems...lacking. maybe, but please keep balance in mind ... being the last in init (something that happens offen) isn't a payof to 20% more chance to hit your targets. +1 to attack isn't lacking, but quite normal. Even half wisdom modifier becomes broken at high level. And later on, the number of creatures you can target and the number of attacks you can make won't be limited by the number of limbs you have. It's more a requirement to use a lot of the bladesage powers. last time I checked, the number of creatures you can target and the number of attacks you can make is never limited by the number of limbs you have (a one armed fighter can use its rain of steel just as well as a dual wielding fighter) Finally, I'm aware that most people won't care about my restriction on heavy armor, but for the sake of roleplaying, I have to restrict it. It just would not make sense otherwise, same with the weapon restriction. why not? why coudn't I use axes, for example?
#14 generalhenry Sep 11, 2009 12:40:23	You cannot   races and classes do not impose restrictions or penalties in 4E.  No exceptions.   Give a bonus to cloth, give a bonus to swords.  Make it optimal, restrict the powers.
#15 generalhenry Sep 11, 2009 12:44:20	superior light blades, superior heavy blades one underused superior weapon is ok (shrunken for rogue)  but all light and heavy blades?  Stick to giving out simple and martial
#16 generalhenry Sep 11, 2009 12:49:22	Path of the Observer: Once per day, when initiative is rolled at the beginning of an encounter, you can choose to automatically go last. If you do, you gain a bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls equal to your Wisdom modifier until the end of the encounter.   that's a daily, not a class feature.   and two stats to hit all encounter long?  It breaks at epic levels.
#17 Tony_Vargas Sep 11, 2009 12:59:26	First of all, I'm glad you like my idea for the first Path, and perhaps you are right about it being too powerful currently. However, the idea of a +1 to just attack seems...lacking. Maybe I can make it a bonus to attack rolls equal to half your Wisdom modifier, or perhaps make it +1, but add an extra ability, maybe throw in a third at-will power based on which Path you choose, kind of like the druid, which I was going to do originally, but forgot about. I've also got to consider that you can use this option only once per day, and a lot of daily powers last until the end of the encounter. I don't know how I missed that it was a daily.  Yes, a daily lasting all encounter is perfectly reasonable.  OTOH, class features aren't generally dailies.  They help define the class, and should be there for most encounters. As I said, there are several conditional +1 attack class features, and they're generally reckoned as good features.  They can aply much of the time, while you meet the condition.  Delaying until the bottom of the round could be the condition for Path of the Observer, and that would let the bladesage get a +1 prettymuch all the time, much like a fighter or rogue using his favored weapon.  That's actually kinda a big deal for a controller: since they often make multiple attacks every round (AEs), they benefit more from any attack bonus that adds to all of them. You could, instead, model it on the Wizard's Wand Mastery, giving you +WIS on one attack 1/encounter.  It could go something like:  "1/encounter, when you delay or ready an attack until after an opponent has taken his standard action, you gain a bonus to your next attack against that enemy equal to your WIS mod." Finally, I'm aware that most people won't care about my restriction on heavy armor, but for the sake of roleplaying, I have to restrict it. It just would not make sense otherwise, same with the weapon restriction. Having certain class features or powers work only with certain weapons is not at all unusual.  For that matter, I think there's at least one class that does have some power that faces an armor restriction.  In general, though, any class that has INT or DEX as a primary or critical secondary is better off sticking with light armor than spending feats and taking movement and check penalties to wear heavy armor.  So, if DEX is the bladesage's primary, then restricting it to light armor would prettymuch be a non-restriction.  If you restrict it from armor that gives any kind of skill check or movement penalty, you'd keep them out of Hide, as well (until Hide Specialization could be obtained).  Controllers /are/ supposed to 'favor offense over defense' so an armor restriction isn't unreasonable in that sense.  But, it is something 4e has so far avoided (and even 3e shied away from), if only because of the mockery D&D had always faced over it's draconian armor & weapon restrictions.
#18 Tony_Vargas Sep 11, 2009 13:14:17	races and classes do not impose restrictions or penalties in 4E.  No exceptions.   Give a bonus to cloth, give a bonus to swords.  Make it optimal, restrict the powers. You've got the right idea.  It's not that a hard weapon or armor restriction would be imbalancing, it's just contrary to 4e's general design philosophy.  Instead of hard restrictions, it makes using anything else so sub-optimal that the decision to stick to the non-restriction is a 'no brainer' non-choice. Yes, it's a tad disengenuous.  But it seems to have been generally well-recieved.  A wizard can wear full plate.  No wizard ever will, but the fact that he theoretically /could/ absolves 4e of the stigma of it's predecesors' arbitrary, inflexible weapon & armor restrictions. So, Zarba, just be ready to paste "Special: you must be using a blade (light and/or heavy) in each hand" to most of the bladesage's power.  They'll be able to use other weapons, they just never will, because why use an MBA when you have all these cool powers (and, y'know, controller powers tend to be particularly good, especially the at-wills & dailies).  Heck, if you throw in an at-will that can sub for MBA, they'll never use an MBA, at all, just throw down the at-will whenever one's called for.   Seriously, the illusion of choice is much better at forcing something on players than is an absolute restriction.
#19 generalhenry Sep 11, 2009 14:13:40	exactly a rogue CAN use a greataxe and platemail   it's just not a good choice
#20 zarba_mindblade Sep 11, 2009 16:28:07	Wow... This is a lot to think about, so I probably will be inactive for a while, not to mention my weekly outing to Hillside Games tomorrow. I'll run the info by my fellow D&D players in RL there, and see where it goes. See y'all later then!
#21 zarba_mindblade Sep 15, 2009 15:13:37	Hello again! I have made various changes to the features of this class, mainly taking away all restrictions on weapons and armor, as well as changing Path of the Observer. I've also taken away initial proficiencies with superior weapons, but I feel that at least one needs to stay, so with that, I present to you an entirely new feature: Signature Style You trained exclusively under a master bladesage, and in time, he or she passed on their weapon technique of choice to you. You gain Weapon Proficiency with a light blade or a heavy blade as a bonus feat. I've also finished the second Path of the Sage: Path of the Aggressor: When you charge, any enemy that you provoke an opportunity attack from during the charge takes damage equal to your Strength modifier. (recently edited) So those are the changes I've made thus far. Look them over, tell me what you think.
#22 Tony_Vargas Sep 15, 2009 16:42:20	Path of the Observer is fine if it's meant to be a 1/encounter ability, like the Wizard's Wand Mastery.  If you can do it any and every time you ready, a +1 would be better balanced (comparable to Prime Shot).  Actually, /both/ wouldn't be that unreasonable, a +1 whenever you ready, upped to +WIS 1/encounter.  A little better than Wand Mastery, but Wand Mastery's a little lacking in my estimation. ;) Path of the Agressor is fine, balance-wise, but it's more likely to act as a defensive power, albeit, one that enables an aggressive tactic (charging), by discouraging OAs, rather than dishing damage.  Now, if it inflicted damage when you /provoked/, rather than if they take the damage, that'd be much more 'agressive.'  You're encouraged to provoke, and enemy are not discouraged from taking the OA.  Controllers are all about making multiple attacks, so being able to attack or otherwise damage multiple targets as you charge is a very reasonable thing for the bladesage to do.  So, again, it's a good idea, you just have to decide exactly what you want to accomplish with it, and make sure it's balanced.  Right now, it's not weak, exactly, but it might not come up much.   Oh, and the Signature feature is just fine.  A feat as a feature is perfectly OK, even a little weak (the Archer-Ranger is often criticized for getting 'only' a feat, while the TWF ranger gets a rules-exception).  I think the Paths are going to be the premier features, though, so that's just fine.  All features don't have to be equally potent.
#23 zarba_mindblade Sep 16, 2009 19:54:14	Path of the Observer is fine if it's meant to be a 1/encounter ability, like the Wizard's Wand Mastery.  If you can do it any and every time you ready, a +1 would be better balanced (comparable to Prime Shot).  Actually, /both/ wouldn't be that unreasonable, a +1 whenever you ready, upped to +WIS 1/encounter.  A little better than Wand Mastery, but Wand Mastery's a little lacking in my estimation. ;) Path of the Agressor is fine, balance-wise, but it's more likely to act as a defensive power, albeit, one that enables an aggressive tactic (charging), by discouraging OAs, rather than dishing damage.  Now, if it inflicted damage when you /provoked/, rather than if they take the damage, that'd be much more 'agressive.'  You're encouraged to provoke, and enemy are not discouraged from taking the OA.  Controllers are all about making multiple attacks, so being able to attack or otherwise damage multiple targets as you charge is a very reasonable thing for the bladesage to do.  So, again, it's a good idea, you just have to decide exactly what you want to accomplish with it, and make sure it's balanced.  Right now, it's not weak, exactly, but it might not come up much.   Oh, and the Signature feature is just fine.  A feat as a feature is perfectly OK, even a little weak (the Archer-Ranger is often criticized for getting 'only' a feat, while the TWF ranger gets a rules-exception).  I think the Paths are going to be the premier features, though, so that's just fine.  All features don't have to be equally potent.   First off, I understand Path of the Observer might be too powerful as is, but because the Paths are the key features, and they are also supposed to be based on the bladesage's secondary attributes (namely Wisdom [for the Observer] and Strength [for the Aggressor]), they need to scale up somehow. I've changed the bonus to half your Wisdom modifier, so that should balance it out just enough. Second of all, you make an excellent point on the Path of the Aggressor, and now it has been changed. Finally, Signature Style was created because it just looked funny to have the same thing in the Weapon Proficiencies list, and also because this class was inspired by a combination of three others, those being Fighter, Ranger, and ROGUE, the latter being bolded, italiced, underlined, and CAPITALIZED because a bloody freaking lot of people on this forum don't know how to spell, but now I'm just needlessly ranting. Anyway, thank you for your opinion, and I await more review from everyone.
#24 Tony_Vargas Sep 16, 2009 20:07:25	Path of the Aggressor is now sufficiently aggressive.  ;) I have to say I like both of the paths.  About Path of the Observer giving 1/2 a secondary stat as an attack bonus...   The Warlord's tactical presence gives 1/2 his secondary stat as an attack bonus.  To allies.  Only when they spend action points.  Right now, nothing stops it from being used every round - enemies might catch on and start trying to not trigger your ready, leading to arguments about Readying (do enemies know what you're readying for, how general can the trigger be, that sort of thing).  As an encounter ability, giving the full WIS bonus, it would be comparable to the wizard's Wand of Accuracy.
#25 zarba_mindblade Sep 17, 2009 17:05:49	Maybe readying an action isn't the right trigger for Path of the Observer... How about the total defense action? I'll edit it now and see how it is received.