Any ideas on how this might work? I'm horrible with coming up with the crunch for new classes in the 4e, new builds I can do. But new classes entirely is a bit harder (have to come up with class features, multiple builds, Paragon Paths etc). Thanks for any input or help!
Sorry if this was covered in another thread and I missed it.
There's no reason to. Martial power source doesn't NEED a controller. It just doesn't.
Furthermore, based on what a controller is and needs to do a Martial one would be difficult if not impossible to implement.
However, here is a link to a thread that I started on this very topic. Some of the proponents of martial controllers posited their ideas, and there are even a few links to builds that some people have done.
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1134879
Why? Why would you want to?
There's no reason to. Martial power source doesn't NEED a controller. It just doesn't.
Furthermore, based on what a controller is and needs to do a Martial one would be difficult if not impossible to implement.
However, here is a link to a thread that I started on this very topic. Some of the proponents of martial controllers posited their ideas, and there are even a few links to builds that some people have done.
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1134879
You add nothing to this thread. Please don't come in here spreading your opinions or rhetoric. I neither asked for it nor want it. I asked for some input and help to design this idea. You sir, are not welcome.
The exact words from the PHBII. I dont see why they couldnt make a Martial controller with this kind of design.
hell even the humanoid form allows you to control opponents from a distance can be brought over to the martial controller meaning that he perhaps charges around the battle field or maybe does great leaps and tumbles and stuff.
Martial controller already exists, he just killed the old druid and took his stuff too.
right on top of my post.Anyway, what I'd said in both posts, was that the Warlord is the best place to start with a martial controller. Leaders and controllers, despite claims to the contrary, are really just different sides of the same coin. Leaders benefit allies, controllers hinder enemies. Most of the warlord's powers are activated with a melee attack, but it's not a stretch to rig them to activate with a ranged attack instead. And since leader powers are the flipside of controller powers, it's not a stretch to have them cause negative status effects by demoralizing enemies in an area...especially if they're stealthy. Snipers don't just kill enemies...they kill morale too. A broad example, but I think you get the idea. One can always arrange to have arrow volleys...some that hurt more, some that cause terrain to become more difficult...and so on. Each only goes so far, but together they can all add up to a worthwhile martial controller, I think.
4E already has those... except they are called defenders.
??? Defenders control in close bursts, with an emphasis on mobility, and a bent towards ranged effects? Funny, it sounded a lot more like a martial take on the druid to me, but then druids are defenders too I suppose.
??? Defenders control in close bursts, with an emphasis on mobility, and a bent towards ranged effects? Funny, it sounded a lot more like a martial take on the druid to me, but then druids are defenders too I suppose.
Defenders do the same thing controllers do, they just do it at melee range.
Defenders do the same thing controllers do, they just do it at melee range.
No, they don't; I'm not sure where you got this idea. Controllers alter an enemy's actions, and can do it a lot of ways. Look at the druid melee options: melee druids force enemy movement and/or lock down the enemy to prevent it attacking, often followed by moving away to deal some ranged conditions to the same or other enemies. A defender is supposed to "stick" enemies in a given spot, drawing them away from its allies and tanking to take fire. Druids, and the spear-controller I'm toying with, don't do that in melee at all, and in fact would very much like the enemies not to stick to them. They are not defenders.
The druid does have something of a secondary defender role, mind you. I'm not sure if my build will have a similar defendery role, or something else (I could do a more strikery feel with a lot of forced movement, for example). I'm not that far along yet.
No, they don't; I'm not sure where you got this idea. Controllers alter an enemy's actions, and can do it a lot of ways. Look at the druid melee options: melee druids force enemy movement and/or lock down the enemy to prevent it attacking, often followed by moving away to deal some ranged conditions to the same or other enemies. A defender is supposed to "stick" enemies in a given spot, drawing them away from its allies and tanking to take fire. Druids, and the spear-controller I'm toying with, don't do that in melee at all, and in fact would very much like the enemies not to stick to them. They are not defenders.
The druid does have something of a secondary defender role, mind you. I'm not sure if my build will have a similar defendery role, or something else (I could do a more strikery feel with a lot of forced movement, for example). I'm not that far along yet.
*shrug* well thats just a quirk of being a controller at point-blank range... you only affect enemies in your immediate vicinity ;)
Oh and FYI, defenders do more than merely 'stick enemies in a given spot', they can often disperse them, shove them around, knock them prone, stun them, make area attacks... pretty much everything controllers can do, simply much more limited in range. You should look at some of the fighter powers in the PHB, and consider how polearm gamble lets a fighter make the battlefield his playground :D
*shrug* well thats just a quirk of being a controller at point-blank range... you only affect enemies in your immediate vicinity ;)
Oh and FYI, defenders do more than merely 'stick enemies in a given spot', they can often disperse them, shove them around, knock them prone, stun them, make area attacks... pretty much everything controllers can do, simply much more limited in range. You should look at some of the fighter powers in the PHB, and consider how polearm gamble lets a fighter make the battlefield his playground :D
You're not wrong, but status effect dealing is not the same as being a controller. Rogues and Warlocks can deal a lot of status too. It's the way the status is dealt, the type of status, and the reliability and consistent access to status effects, all in the scope of the overall combination of powers that defines the controller versus the defender. Range is not a requirement, any more than a striker has to be ranged or a leader has to be melee, although I'd argue that a controller should at least have a ranged component (ie. throwing spears, or the non-beast druid powers).
You're not wrong, but status effect dealing is not the same as being a controller. Rogues and Warlocks can deal a lot of status too. It's the way the status is dealt, the type of status, and the reliability and consistent access to status effects, all in the scope of the overall combination of powers that defines the controller versus the defender. Range is not a requirement, any more than a striker has to be ranged or a leader has to be melee, although I'd argue that a controller should at least have a ranged component (ie. throwing spears, or the non-beast druid powers).
Arguably the very reason there CANT be a melee controller, or at least why defenders are given a distinct role.
Controllers need to throw around frickin' magic to do their job right; a pointy stick on any scale just isnt going to do the trick without some serious joo-joo backing it up.
Arcane archer perhaps? we'll see what next month gives us.
Arguably the very reason there CANT be a melee controller, or at least why defenders are given a distinct role.
What is arguably the very reason? The fact that other classes have status effects as well? The warlock does great status effects at range. Does that mean they are controllers?
Controllers need to throw around frickin' magic to do their job right; a pointy stick on any scale just isnt going to do the trick without some serious joo-joo backing it up.
Martial characters have some serious juju. Consider Come and Get It, or Own the Battlefield or whatever that warlord power is called. These are pretty flippin' magical in effects, but martial by fluff. This is the the standard of 4e.
Anyway, you seem to be of the school of thought that it's somehow impossible to make a martial controller class, despite the fact that (as you keep pretty much ignoring), the druid Predator build already is a predominately melee controller. My build is arguably less melee, as it relies on reach and thrown weapons as much as fighting close.
The bottom line, though, is if you don't think a martial controller is a good idea, why are you even here? The thread is about making one, not about saying how impossible it is, and this is the Homebrew forum, not the "ask WotC to make things core" forum. If you don't like it, go away and let people who are interested design what we'd like for our own bloomin' games.
What is arguably the very reason? The fact that other classes have status effects as well? The warlock does great status effects at range. Does that mean they are controllers?
I obviously misread your post to make more sense that it actually did, kind of like how your brain sometimes auto-corrects bad spelling without realising it?
I meant the bit about the limited scope of melee making them generally unsuited to wearing the mantle of 'controller'... they need to do it from range, and it needs to be pretty hoopy... so far we've got a variety of magic-flingers doing the job, only one of them minors as a melee striker with the right build... I wouldnt call a druid in beast form more of a controller than a defender, mind.
Martial characters have some serious juju. Consider Come and Get It, or Own the Battlefield or whatever that warlord power is called. These are pretty flippin' magical in effects, but martial by fluff. This is the the standard of 4e.
Now now, dont start something you cant end... a fighter's powers are never magical in nature, they are tactical, psychological, possibly supernatural but not... frickin' eldritch, right? Next you'll be saying that HPs represent actual wounds or some backwards 3E-ish BS.
Anyway, you seem to be of the school of thought that it's somehow impossible to make a martial controller class, despite the fact that (as you keep pretty much ignoring), the druid Predator build already is a predominately melee controller. My build is arguably less melee, as it relies on reach and thrown weapons as much as fighting close.
The bottom line, though, is if you don't think a martial controller is a good idea, why are you even here? The thread is about making one, not about saying how impossible it is, and this is the Homebrew forum, not the "ask WotC to make things core" forum. If you don't like it, go away and let people who are interested design what we'd like for our own bloomin' games.
I consider my contribution to this thread to be reminding you lot that, you dont need to try and hammer a square peg into a round hole, when there's a perfectly good round peg within arms' reach...
I wouldnt call a druid in beast form more of a controller than a defender, mind.
So you disagree with WotC's definition of a controller, as they consider a Predator Druid to be a controller. I'm not sure why I need to continue debating with you, then. I'm going to stick with what the designers of the game consider an appropriate controller, not your personal definition.
Now now, dont start something you cant end... a fighter's powers are never magical in nature, they are tactical, psychological, possibly supernatural but not... frickin' eldritch, right?
Precisely. You've just supported my point, which apparently you misunderstood. Martial characters do not use any magic, yet they accomplish effects that, when mechanically written out, appear magical. Ranged pull 3 in a close burst using a melee weapon? Mechanically, physically, that is not a martial power. In-game and in fluff it is, which is why it's fine. All martial classes have a few powers like this. A controller would be no different: they do not need eldritch support to get to do cool things.
I consider my contribution to this thread to be reminding you lot that, you dont need to try and hammer a square peg into a round hole, when there's a perfectly good round peg within arms' reach...
How very productive of you. I'm going to go back to having fun making a martial controller class, then, because I want to do it and I like the class. I welcome you to not use it.
By the way, the back and forth about whether or not Exploits are or seem magical in effect, I think that's on purpose. If you think about it, the heroes of lore and legend often did incredible things that seemed to be magical in nature, when it wasn't. Look at the LotR movies, specifically the Two Towers. When Legolas was sliding down those stairs on a shield, firing arrow after arrow, you would think that he had some magic ability that let him do that, but in D&D terms it's an Exploit pure and simple. Same with his ability to put an arrow through a goblin's head and into the pillar behind it while balancing on a crumbling stairway from over 300 yards away (it seemed about that far anyway) in the first movie. I know, Legolas is probably overused, and I hate to seem like a fanboy (I'm really not, I was always on Sauron's side to be honest), but it's the first thing I can think of. Also if you've ever seen Xena or Hercules back in the day, you'll know what I'm talking about as well.
As for those who don't think a Martial Controller is needed, posible, whatever, I don't care. Unless you are actually going to contribute to the design process or at least give a couple of ideas as to how it might be done, go away. This isn't the thread to debate about whether or not it can be done, or should be done. Chiba_Monkey has a link to a thread discussing that already.
Now, back to my idea. I was thinking of different arrow types to add status effects. A set of volly powers to add AoE, and possibly trap arrows (that spread nets, or dropped caltrops) to change terrain features. Any more ideas out there?
Now, back to my idea. I was thinking of different arrow types to add status effects. A set of volly powers to add AoE, and possibly trap arrows (that spread nets, or dropped caltrops) to change terrain features. Any more ideas out there?
I've always liked, and plan to use, the idea of a dailies that create zones of "defended turf". Anything that enters/leaves/starts its turn in/whatever the zone provokes an attack (OA, interrupt, free action etc depends on the specific zone creating ability, as does the effect of the attack) from either 1) the controller, if he's an archer or tosser type, or 2) the nearest party member with the ability to attack. The latter tends towards leadery effects but is still placed within a controller matrix, but I prefer the controller being the attacker myself.
I've never been gaga over things like traps, nets, et cetera myself, but that's just personal taste. They could be done well.
AoE with an arrow could also be explained by 'scoring' an arrow (better a crossbow bolt) so that it shatters into fragments on firing: close blast.
You add nothing to this thread. Please don't come in here spreading your opinions or rhetoric. I neither asked for it nor want it. I asked for some input and help to design this idea. You sir, are not welcome.
There's no need to have that kind of attitude, this is a public forum, and you have no right to tell me where I can and can not post.
My own opinions of martial controllers aside (that being that I do not understand the need for one, and I agree with CyberianHusky that a controller would need to throw magic around to do what a controller needs to do), The thread I linked has some more links within it to builds people have done. One of them seems to actually be pretty balanced and doesn't rely on anything as contrived as a guy being followed by a horde of followers nor is it a re-made archer.
I think it's on page 3 or 4 of that thread. If you would like the author of that design to add to this discussion, I suggest you PM him.
The thing you don't understand is that this thread is about ideas and insight into creating a Martial Controller, not about speaking against the idea, so in order to stay on topic, which is also a rule of these forums, you need to check the need to put down those who like an idea that you do not, especially in a thread about said idea. So no I can't tell you where you can or cannot post, and no I am not a moderator or administrator, but seeing as you have to be disruptive, I do have the right to report you to those people and they can tell you whether or not you can post at all or not. (Funny thing is I see that you are obviously in the armed forces, and you can't see how someone using martial skill can control a battlefield?)
Now to keep things on track, I have been doing some thinking and discussing things with a friend of mine and we were thinking that Erk's idea and mine could be one class, just different builds. A class that keeps enemies at bay with reach weapons, but can pull out ranged attacks if no one is close by. Probably lightly armored, mobile, and can possibly 'set up' traps 'ahead of time'. Though the traps would an arbitrary thing (they go off when the character does his 'attack'). The idea being that he scouted ahead and surveyed the battlefield. The kinks in the fluff (like rooms that are obviously inhabited by alert monsters would stop said character from setting up those traps ahead of time technically) would have to be ironed out, but I personally think it's a solid idea and a good start.
Please keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.
Now to keep things on track, I have been doing some thinking and discussing things with a friend of mine and we were thinking that Erk's idea and mine could be one class, just different builds. A class that keeps enemies at bay with reach weapons, but can pull out ranged attacks if no one is close by. Probably lightly armored, mobile, and can possibly 'set up' traps 'ahead of time'. Though the traps would an arbitrary thing (they go off when the character does his 'attack'). The idea being that he scouted ahead and surveyed the battlefield. The kinks in the fluff (like rooms that are obviously inhabited by alert monsters would stop said character from setting up those traps ahead of time technically) would have to be ironed out, but I personally think it's a solid idea and a good start.
Heh. That's interesting. Last night I rewrote my class beginning after thinking about it from this thread, and what you describe is more or less what I've got.
Note that name fluff and stuff like that is all just placeholder for now. The original class name was guerilla, but I'm moving further from a focus on stealth and improvisation, so I have just chosen a random name so far. In my gameworld, the fluff is that these characters are survivors in the desert, fighting off some very nasty stuff as a way of life, and they've learned to use whatever is available to make the fight easier for them.
Martial Controller: “Scion”
CLASS TRAITS
Role: Controller. In close, you wield hafted weapons, using them to attack multiple opponents at reach, then darting back to throw your weapon, or anything else you might have on hand. You know the dangers of a toe-to-toe conflict, and prefer to let the environment – or even your enemies – do your fighting for you whenever possible. To this end you are a master of resourcefulness and psychological warfare.
Power Source: Martial. You work through a combination of physical prowess, situational awareness, intimidation, and resourcefulness, all achieved with a combination of arduous training and personal talent.
Key Abilities: Dexterity, Wisdom, Strength
Armour Proficiencies: Cloth, leather, hide, chain
Weapon Proficiencies: Simple melee, martial melee, simple ranged
Bonus to Defense: +1 reflex, +1 fortitude
Hit Points at 1st level: 12 + Constitution score
Hit Points per Level Gained: 5
Healing Surges per Day: 7 + Constitution modifier
Trained Skills: From the class skills list below, choose four trained skills at first level. Acrobatics, Athletics, Bluff, Dungeoneering, Heal, Insight, Intimidate, Perception, Stealth, Streetwise.
CLASS FEATURES:
Design note: Scions deal in three or four major classes of ability: spear abilities (predominately melee/close), thrown weapon abilities (predominately ranged/area), fear and tactics (predominately zones), and terrain modification (not sure yet if this will be included). Through selecting a combat style, the scion chooses to specialise in either close or ranged. The other one or two are available equally to both scion builds. Close scions use Str as a secondary, while ranged scions use Wis.
Combat Style
Brave Scion
→ Choose a single weapon group from Spear or Polearm. You may treat weapons in this group as double weapons: the off-hand end of the weapon (the butt) deals 1d6 damage and has a +2 proficiency bonus. Some Scion exploits will have different effects depending on if you use the blade or butt of your weapon.
→ While wielding your weapon of choice in both hands, you gain a +1 shield bonus to AC and Reflex.
→ You automatically know the Fending Jab at-will exploit. This is in addition to the at-will exploits you normally know at level 1.
→ You gain the Durable feat as a bonus feat at level 1.
Clever Scion
→ Choose a weapon group that includes weapons with the heavy or light thrown property. When throwing weapons with the “thrown” property from that group, increase the damage die by one step and the range increment by +5/10.
→ You may throw weapons not normally throwable from your group of choice: when throwing these weapons, reduce the proficiency bonus by one and ignore any nonmagical properties the weapon normally possesses. The range increment for throwing these weapons is 6/12 for one handed and 4/8 for two handed weapons.
→ When you use an improvised thrown weapon, it inflicts 1d6 damage rather than the usual 1d4.
→ You automatically know the Point Blank Gamble at-will exploit. This is in addition to the at-will exploits you normally know at level 1.
→ You gain the Defensive Mobility and Shield Proficiency (Light) feats as bonus feats at level 1, even if you do not normally qualify.
Snaremaker
You gain the Trap Construction feat at first level. Trap Construction functions like Ritual Caster, but does not have a magical base. Instead, you can use trap schematics to lay snares and hazards in an area. You know 2 trap schematics at first level, and gain 1 automatically when you advance to a new tier. You may learn new schematics in the same way a ritual caster learns new rituals.
Obviously, I'm going to have to design some of these as well. The utility will be less than rituals, but they'll provide some long-term options for battlefield alteration.
At-Will Exploits
Fending Jab - Scion Attack 1
As your opponent comes into reach, you press it back with your spear. It balks at the onslaught for a moment: just long enough.
At-Will * Martial, Weapon
Immediate Interrupt | Melee 1
Requirement: You must be wielding a spear, polearm, or staff.
Trigger: an enemy enters a square adjacent to you.
Attack: Dex vs. AC
Hit: The target is pushed 1 square and ends its move action.
Brave Scion: If you are wielding your weapon of choice, the effect is determined by which end of the weapon you choose to attack with.
Blade: The target takes 1[W] damage and is pushed 1 square and ends its move action.
Butt: You slide the target a number of squares equal to your Str modifier, and end its move action.
Point Blank Gamble - Scion Attack 1
You launch a disconcerting attack against a threatening enemy, interrupting its rhythm for a moment to stop it interfering in your plans.
At-Will * Martial, Weapon
Standard Action | Melee 1
Requirement: You must be wielding a throwable weapon.
Attack: Dex vs. AC
Target: One creature
Hit: Dex modifier damage and the target cannot make Opportunity Attacks until the end of your next turn.
Clever Scion: Make a secondary attack. You may choose to make this attack whether or not the first attack hits.
Secondary Target: One enemy within your weapon's range.
Secondary Attack: Dex vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] damage and the target is pushed one square.
Special: This ranged attack does not provoke an Opportunity Attack from the target of your first attack.
Fending Jab - Scion Attack 1
As your opponent comes into reach, you press it back with your spear. It balks at the onslaught for a moment: just long enough.
At-Will * Martial, Weapon
Immediate Interrupt | Melee 1
Requirement: You must be wielding a spear, polearm, or staff.
Trigger: an enemy enters a square adjacent to you.
Attack: Dex vs. AC
Hit: The target is pushed 1 square and ends its move action.
Brave Scion: If you are wielding your weapon of choice, the effect is determined by which end of the weapon you choose to attack with.
Blade: The target takes 1[W] damage and is pushed 1 square and ends its move action.
Butt: You slide the target a number of squares equal to your Str modifier, and end its move action.
Point Blank Gamble - Scion Attack 1
You launch a disconcerting attack against a threatening enemy, interrupting its rhythm for a moment to stop it interfering in your plans.
At-Will * Martial, Weapon
Standard Action | Melee 1
Requirement: You must be wielding a throwable weapon.
Attack: Dex vs. AC
Target: One creature
Hit: Dex modifier damage and the target cannot make Opportunity Attacks until the end of your next turn.
Clever Scion: Make a secondary attack. You may choose to make this attack whether or not the first attack hits.
Secondary Target: One enemy within your weapon's range.
Secondary Attack: Dex vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] damage and the target is pushed one square.
Special: This ranged attack does not provoke an Opportunity Attack from the target of your first attack.
I think traps and anything similar are better governed by a ritual-like mechanic than exploits. The Trap Construction feat thingy could encompass stuff like digging trenches and altering a battlefield when there is time to prepare, which should be options available to all characters but specialised in by the controller - just as rituals are for druids, wizards, and clerics.
The class PDF can be found here, and the thread for anybody who wants to comment on it can be found here.
Then, I'll alter many of the Ranger Beast powers to be Ranged or Melee, so they can be used to support either build. The Ranger will then be redescribed as a warrior who uses their keep senses and knowledge of their enemy to control. I want to alter Hunter's Quarry to be more of a controller ability, to somehow have it give the Ranger some control over their Quarry's actions.
I've searched for some help for adjusting Hunter's Quarry, but I haven't found any great ideas yet other than having it impose a -2 penalty or have it negate a creature's ability to gain combat advantage, cover, or concealment (you're watching it so closely that you can point out where it is and warn allies when it's going to attack).
Thoughts?