Mass Combat Custom Rules - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Mass Combat Custom Rules

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Guiltl3ss
Feb 28, 2009 19:21:28 I know mass combat normally goes against DnD in some ways (so they tell me even tho its based off a mass combat game...) but Im trying to get some good rules together. I have the old Rules Cyclopedia from original Dungeons and Dragons and some Gurps Mass Combar 4th Ed Rules, so thats good. What I am looking for is some fine tuning to them. More like random event tables I can use with an army that the players have to deal with. So I guess its two fold.

Example 1 (Adventure Starters) - Somone has stolen the troops payroll! The players have to find the culprit and get the wages back before their army leaves them...or worse!

Example 2 (Daily/Weekly/Monthly Random Event) - Your troops managed to get to their destination earlier than normal and managed to get in some extra training. Troop quality has increased by one level.

I dunno, just want to add some spice and let them deal with some situations that arise. Your thoughts?
#2
matthewswift
Feb 28, 2009 23:43:49 It really all depends on the level of detail and the scale you want. Dnd is considered tactical fantasy combat.

Strategic is like Risk
Operational is like a round of Napoleonics, or what Chainmail aspired to be. I think. Never played Chainmail.

How large scale do you want it?

Operational is just an "up-scaling" of the units. Combat remains basically the same, but the "armies" are represented by units just like large critters. Powers are adjusted for scale. Add minor house rules regarding maneuvers, like shifting is turning the unit, and for coherency (ie bonus to defense at the expense of attack?) etc. instant grand scale combat.

Strategic scale's a whole other monster
#3
ebal
Mar 01, 2009 3:25:17 Well, as far as large scale combat goes, our group has encountered once, and while it was certainly interesting, our DM gave us a little too much freedom and found out that it's not so great an idea to allow us to have 15 clerics with player range powers and full control. Flame Strike made quick work of his troops. Not to mention that they all had paragon paths chosen by us. Having 15 uses of Prophecy of Doom in a single encounter is nice. But yeah, between the clerics and the 10 catapults and 2 trebuchets he let us have, the only reason the battle took a long time was because we all had to painfully wrap our heads around keeping track of all the abilities of our troops and thus had very long turns.

Now among these special troops, we did have some normal troops, grouped together in groups of five I think it was. What happened when these groups clashed? Basically a game of risk. Each side rolled d6 per troop in the unit, compare the highest two. Tie goes to the defender, each loss is the loss of a troop.

My suggestion, is to use similar rules here, but modified, made more interesting. First of all, while the basic risk idea is good, with more dice for more troops, I think that should be modified to be more in fitting with other D&D combat rules. Attack rolls and damage rolls. Also, for the most part, a person shouldn't be able to kill his troops on his own turn. Now I'm just coming with ideas off the top of my head here, but why not opposed rolls? Make a d20 roll for each unit with a modifier applied based on the number of troops in the unit. If the attacker's roll is higher, roll damage. if the defender's roll is higher, they are able to hold off the attack.

Now for damage, you make rolls similar to risk, but with different size dies or different modifiers based on unit type, morale, and equipment quality. A local militia, wielding whatever weapons they could scrounge, might get to roll a d6, where as a well trained military unit with well made and maintained equipment could get to roll a d10. if a unit is in good morale, apply a bonus to the rolls, if they're in poor morale, apply a penalty. Things like that. then compare the two or three highest dice of each side (more or less if you want a faster or slower pace to combat). for each roll that the attacker wins, the defending unit loses one of it's troops. This makes it so that they have to slowly chip off HP like if they were normal monsters, and not be able to one shot them. Unless you want it that way. Then perhaps you roll a die for each troop in the unit and if someone gets lucky (unlikely, but hey, it can happen) they can wipe the whole troop in one attack. What happens if none of the attacker's rolls win? I'd say since the attack roll was successful, one troop from the defender's side is down, but the attackers were wounded in the process. A possible way to represent that is with penalties to rolls, or perhaps throwing out the highest die on damage rolls for a short time (save ends maybe).

Now, unit types. The cleric thing was overpowered, but it's fun to have units with purposes. Indeed, I think units should have rolls same as monsters and PC classes. Assign units types and properties. Perhaps ballista or trebuches or other siege weapons could be controllers. Being able to attack many foes from a long distance. Standard foot troops could be leaders. Elite troops or cavalry could be strikers. And for leaders you could have battlefield medics, command units, units comprised of clerics or other PC leader classes, that can produce similar effects. Think what these units can do. A cavalry unit might have a higher speed than foot troops for instance. Or a phalanx might have improved defense boosts. Scouting or guerilla units might have improved stealth and bonuses that trigger with combat advantage much like rogues. You could also vary the bonuses and unit type by race, nationality, or other factors. Be creative and have fun with it.

Finally, give these units "equipment" slots. I say equipment slots in parentheses, because it's a similar concept, but equipment could also mean other things. It could mean equipment of course. Indeed one of these things should be the quality of weapons and armor these units have. But for other ideas, equipment could be mount type. Horses would be a pretty standard mount, but what if there was a unit of elves riding in on Griffons. Dragonborn on drakes. Gnolls on their hyena mounts. Perhaps the opponents are an army of evil tieflings whose demon masters have given them Nightmares to ride into battle on. Each of these mounts should have different properties. You could also consider special individuals as equipment. Maybe one unit has a war hero in its midst, whose legendary status and well liked personality inspires his troops and provides certain bonuses. A militia unit could contain a popular individual from the town that militia is from. Which command unit has the army's general? That should provide exceptional bonuses.

Lastly, to address your other idea of having things happen to the army as a whole, like arriving early and getting better training. Or having supply lines interrupted. How about you come up with a list of things that could happen, good or bad. And then roll a die. you can either come up with a bunch of specific things and roll a d100 (2d10) or a smaller list of effects, roll a d10 or a d20 to pick the effect, and then add a spin to how it happened on the fly depending on troop morale and roleplaying situations. Speaking of morale. The army as a whole should have a morale. Dictated by the DM based on the statistical outcome of battles, as well as more roleplaying related factors. Perhaps the PC's did something you liked, and you reward their creativity with a morale boost. Or the crown prince or something comes out and gives a big speech that is well received. That too could gain a morale boost. Perhaps if that same crown prince was assassinated, the morale could be lowered. Keep track of morale in relation to a center point. Anything above that center point is good morale. Anything below is low morale. Now, you know what's going to happen to the troops. Say their supply lines were cut and food rations were low? An army with good morale would shrug it off more. Things are going good for them. A few weeks of eating less ain't so bad. They can stand to lose the weight anyway. A low morale army would be much more likely to be upset at just another event in a string of bad luck. Roll a die to determine how steeply the army is affected by the event, good or bad. Apply a modifier to the roll based on troop morale. An army with good morale will benefit more from good events and would be less impacted by problems that could arise. While a low morale unit would be the exact opposite. Also, depending on how good or bad the event is, it could affect morale. A particularly fortunate occurance (say arriving in town to find that a large number of the citizens are sympathetic to their cause and offer substantial assistance) could help boost the morale of troops who need it. while coming across a raided village that they were too late to save could be a dire blow to a good units morale.

And to put your PC's in more direct control of this, I think you're on the right track with what you said about adventure hooks. Throw in a quest that the PC's must accomplish that has a bearing on troop morale and performance. Like your payroll idea. What happens if they fail? Do a large number of their troops leave? Perhaps it's recruiting. Your players engage in a skill challenge to enlist some old war legend. Success gets a boost in morale, as well as a good person to use as a unit "equipment" as mentioned above. Maybe they have to go hire a group of mercs, which they accomplish by proving their worth in a series of combat challenges. This could get a boost in troop numbers, some special units, a morale boost, and perhaps improve these benefits based on how well the PC's do in their test, as a measure of how much respect they gained from the mercs in the process.

Just some ideas to play with. This is honestly more detailed than I expected it to be. But as i got into it, I kept coming up with ideas I liked. Hopefully, you can actually manage to make something out of them and put this stuff to good use. If you do, let me know how it comes out.
#4
Guiltl3ss
Mar 02, 2009 14:59:46 Wow, quite a bit on the ideas there. Greatly appreciated all of it too. Gives me a lot to work with for my group, haha. I was thinking on using the old DnD Rules for Mass Combat as a base, but theres a lot I want to expand with it. I even created a spreadsheet that factors in a lot of information automatcally. So we'll see where this goes, haha.
#5
ebal
Mar 02, 2009 19:29:59 Awesome. Glad it helped. If you use any of it, let me know how it works out. When I finally wrap my head around DMing enough to start a campaign, I might use some of it if it proves to actually be useful.
#6
rambaldi
Mar 02, 2009 21:02:49
Wow, quite a bit on the ideas there. Greatly appreciated all of it too. Gives me a lot to work with for my group, haha. I was thinking on using the old DnD Rules for Mass Combat as a base, but theres a lot I want to expand with it. I even created a spreadsheet that factors in a lot of information automatcally. So we'll see where this goes, haha.

Which book were those rules in or have I stupidly missed it in this thread?
#7
Guiltl3ss
Mar 02, 2009 21:26:37 Dungeons and Dragons Rules Cyclopedia, GURPS 4th Ed Mass Combat, and a 3.5 Ed book...Heroes of ...something I forget, haha.
#8
rambaldi
Mar 03, 2009 2:48:33 Thank you, will pop into a library see if they are worth hunting out

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Guiltl3ss Feb 28, 2009 19:21:28	I know mass combat normally goes against DnD in some ways (so they tell me even tho its based off a mass combat game...) but Im trying to get some good rules together. I have the old Rules Cyclopedia from original Dungeons and Dragons and some Gurps Mass Combar 4th Ed Rules, so thats good. What I am looking for is some fine tuning to them. More like random event tables I can use with an army that the players have to deal with. So I guess its two fold. Example 1 (Adventure Starters) - Somone has stolen the troops payroll! The players have to find the culprit and get the wages back before their army leaves them...or worse! Example 2 (Daily/Weekly/Monthly Random Event) - Your troops managed to get to their destination earlier than normal and managed to get in some extra training. Troop quality has increased by one level. I dunno, just want to add some spice and let them deal with some situations that arise. Your thoughts?
#2 matthewswift Feb 28, 2009 23:43:49	It really all depends on the level of detail and the scale you want. Dnd is considered tactical fantasy combat. Strategic is like Risk Operational is like a round of Napoleonics, or what Chainmail aspired to be. I think. Never played Chainmail. How large scale do you want it? Operational is just an "up-scaling" of the units. Combat remains basically the same, but the "armies" are represented by units just like large critters. Powers are adjusted for scale. Add minor house rules regarding maneuvers, like shifting is turning the unit, and for coherency (ie bonus to defense at the expense of attack?) etc. instant grand scale combat. Strategic scale's a whole other monster
#3 ebal Mar 01, 2009 3:25:17	Well, as far as large scale combat goes, our group has encountered once, and while it was certainly interesting, our DM gave us a little too much freedom and found out that it's not so great an idea to allow us to have 15 clerics with player range powers and full control. Flame Strike made quick work of his troops. Not to mention that they all had paragon paths chosen by us. Having 15 uses of Prophecy of Doom in a single encounter is nice. But yeah, between the clerics and the 10 catapults and 2 trebuchets he let us have, the only reason the battle took a long time was because we all had to painfully wrap our heads around keeping track of all the abilities of our troops and thus had very long turns. Now among these special troops, we did have some normal troops, grouped together in groups of five I think it was. What happened when these groups clashed? Basically a game of risk. Each side rolled d6 per troop in the unit, compare the highest two. Tie goes to the defender, each loss is the loss of a troop. My suggestion, is to use similar rules here, but modified, made more interesting. First of all, while the basic risk idea is good, with more dice for more troops, I think that should be modified to be more in fitting with other D&D combat rules. Attack rolls and damage rolls. Also, for the most part, a person shouldn't be able to kill his troops on his own turn. Now I'm just coming with ideas off the top of my head here, but why not opposed rolls? Make a d20 roll for each unit with a modifier applied based on the number of troops in the unit. If the attacker's roll is higher, roll damage. if the defender's roll is higher, they are able to hold off the attack. Now for damage, you make rolls similar to risk, but with different size dies or different modifiers based on unit type, morale, and equipment quality. A local militia, wielding whatever weapons they could scrounge, might get to roll a d6, where as a well trained military unit with well made and maintained equipment could get to roll a d10. if a unit is in good morale, apply a bonus to the rolls, if they're in poor morale, apply a penalty. Things like that. then compare the two or three highest dice of each side (more or less if you want a faster or slower pace to combat). for each roll that the attacker wins, the defending unit loses one of it's troops. This makes it so that they have to slowly chip off HP like if they were normal monsters, and not be able to one shot them. Unless you want it that way. Then perhaps you roll a die for each troop in the unit and if someone gets lucky (unlikely, but hey, it can happen) they can wipe the whole troop in one attack. What happens if none of the attacker's rolls win? I'd say since the attack roll was successful, one troop from the defender's side is down, but the attackers were wounded in the process. A possible way to represent that is with penalties to rolls, or perhaps throwing out the highest die on damage rolls for a short time (save ends maybe). Now, unit types. The cleric thing was overpowered, but it's fun to have units with purposes. Indeed, I think units should have rolls same as monsters and PC classes. Assign units types and properties. Perhaps ballista or trebuches or other siege weapons could be controllers. Being able to attack many foes from a long distance. Standard foot troops could be leaders. Elite troops or cavalry could be strikers. And for leaders you could have battlefield medics, command units, units comprised of clerics or other PC leader classes, that can produce similar effects. Think what these units can do. A cavalry unit might have a higher speed than foot troops for instance. Or a phalanx might have improved defense boosts. Scouting or guerilla units might have improved stealth and bonuses that trigger with combat advantage much like rogues. You could also vary the bonuses and unit type by race, nationality, or other factors. Be creative and have fun with it. Finally, give these units "equipment" slots. I say equipment slots in parentheses, because it's a similar concept, but equipment could also mean other things. It could mean equipment of course. Indeed one of these things should be the quality of weapons and armor these units have. But for other ideas, equipment could be mount type. Horses would be a pretty standard mount, but what if there was a unit of elves riding in on Griffons. Dragonborn on drakes. Gnolls on their hyena mounts. Perhaps the opponents are an army of evil tieflings whose demon masters have given them Nightmares to ride into battle on. Each of these mounts should have different properties. You could also consider special individuals as equipment. Maybe one unit has a war hero in its midst, whose legendary status and well liked personality inspires his troops and provides certain bonuses. A militia unit could contain a popular individual from the town that militia is from. Which command unit has the army's general? That should provide exceptional bonuses. Lastly, to address your other idea of having things happen to the army as a whole, like arriving early and getting better training. Or having supply lines interrupted. How about you come up with a list of things that could happen, good or bad. And then roll a die. you can either come up with a bunch of specific things and roll a d100 (2d10) or a smaller list of effects, roll a d10 or a d20 to pick the effect, and then add a spin to how it happened on the fly depending on troop morale and roleplaying situations. Speaking of morale. The army as a whole should have a morale. Dictated by the DM based on the statistical outcome of battles, as well as more roleplaying related factors. Perhaps the PC's did something you liked, and you reward their creativity with a morale boost. Or the crown prince or something comes out and gives a big speech that is well received. That too could gain a morale boost. Perhaps if that same crown prince was assassinated, the morale could be lowered. Keep track of morale in relation to a center point. Anything above that center point is good morale. Anything below is low morale. Now, you know what's going to happen to the troops. Say their supply lines were cut and food rations were low? An army with good morale would shrug it off more. Things are going good for them. A few weeks of eating less ain't so bad. They can stand to lose the weight anyway. A low morale army would be much more likely to be upset at just another event in a string of bad luck. Roll a die to determine how steeply the army is affected by the event, good or bad. Apply a modifier to the roll based on troop morale. An army with good morale will benefit more from good events and would be less impacted by problems that could arise. While a low morale unit would be the exact opposite. Also, depending on how good or bad the event is, it could affect morale. A particularly fortunate occurance (say arriving in town to find that a large number of the citizens are sympathetic to their cause and offer substantial assistance) could help boost the morale of troops who need it. while coming across a raided village that they were too late to save could be a dire blow to a good units morale. And to put your PC's in more direct control of this, I think you're on the right track with what you said about adventure hooks. Throw in a quest that the PC's must accomplish that has a bearing on troop morale and performance. Like your payroll idea. What happens if they fail? Do a large number of their troops leave? Perhaps it's recruiting. Your players engage in a skill challenge to enlist some old war legend. Success gets a boost in morale, as well as a good person to use as a unit "equipment" as mentioned above. Maybe they have to go hire a group of mercs, which they accomplish by proving their worth in a series of combat challenges. This could get a boost in troop numbers, some special units, a morale boost, and perhaps improve these benefits based on how well the PC's do in their test, as a measure of how much respect they gained from the mercs in the process. Just some ideas to play with. This is honestly more detailed than I expected it to be. But as i got into it, I kept coming up with ideas I liked. Hopefully, you can actually manage to make something out of them and put this stuff to good use. If you do, let me know how it comes out.
#4 Guiltl3ss Mar 02, 2009 14:59:46	Wow, quite a bit on the ideas there. Greatly appreciated all of it too. Gives me a lot to work with for my group, haha. I was thinking on using the old DnD Rules for Mass Combat as a base, but theres a lot I want to expand with it. I even created a spreadsheet that factors in a lot of information automatcally. So we'll see where this goes, haha.
#5 ebal Mar 02, 2009 19:29:59	Awesome. Glad it helped. If you use any of it, let me know how it works out. When I finally wrap my head around DMing enough to start a campaign, I might use some of it if it proves to actually be useful.
#6 rambaldi Mar 02, 2009 21:02:49	Wow, quite a bit on the ideas there. Greatly appreciated all of it too. Gives me a lot to work with for my group, haha. I was thinking on using the old DnD Rules for Mass Combat as a base, but theres a lot I want to expand with it. I even created a spreadsheet that factors in a lot of information automatcally. So we'll see where this goes, haha. Which book were those rules in or have I stupidly missed it in this thread?
#7 Guiltl3ss Mar 02, 2009 21:26:37	Dungeons and Dragons Rules Cyclopedia, GURPS 4th Ed Mass Combat, and a 3.5 Ed book...Heroes of ...something I forget, haha.
#8 rambaldi Mar 03, 2009 2:48:33	Thank you, will pop into a library see if they are worth hunting out