Mechanic for ingoring a defender's Mark - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Mechanic for ingoring a defender's Mark

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Ramius613
Jun 26, 2010 23:41:59
As a DM, I find marks to be somewhat of a hassle. My biggest issue comes down to when should I, as a DM, ingore the mark and go after squishier targets. So I came up with this mechanic to simplify the decision. NOTE: This has no effect on the PCs marking ability, they function as normal, this is mainly a DM tool.

My idea is based on the Power recharge system. At the start of a monster's turn, it would roll a d6 if it was marked. If the die result is >= their assigned number, they would ignore the defender's mark and choose a different target.

Here is a break down:

Minions and low intelligence monsters (oozes, slimes, skeletons, zombies, etc) would not have this feature.

Brutes, Soldiers, Artillery, and average intelligence creatures would be able to ignore the mark on a roll of 6+.

Skirmishers, Lurkers, Leaders, Controllers, and high intelligence creatures would ignore the mark on a roll of 5+.

Elites and Solos ignore the mark on a roll of 4+.

Optional features:

If defender is last PC to attack monster before its initiative, Roll increases by 1 (4-->5, 5-->6, etc)

If monster is attacked by an ally before its initiative, Roll decreases by 1.

AP, Daily power from Defender, Roll increases by 1.

AP, Daily power from ally, Roll decreases by 1.

I think this would be beneficial on both sides of the screen. First, it allows the defender to make use of his marking penalties on a more consistent basis. It frees up the DM from feeling like he is locked in to only attacking the PC that marked him. And finally, it adds some suspense to all the players involved. Gets them thinking, "I can do this HUGE nova that could almost kill this monster in 1 round, but if Frank the Tank doesn't hold him, I am DEAD."

Thoughts?

Ramius
#2
Bandikoot
Jun 27, 2010 0:26:59 It seems like an awful lot of work for something that should be essentially logic based. While I agree that unintelligent creatures will simply attack whatever has them marked, everything else should act in a manner dictated by the encounter. The problem with simply rolling a die is you are going to have creatures "able" to ignore a mark when there is no real reason for them to do so, yet unable to ingore a mark when it is blatantly obvious that they should take the penalty and go after someone else.
#3
Bera
Jun 27, 2010 9:05:37 It seems like a little imagination and roleplaying the enemies should give the desired result. Roll a die if you can't decide, but basing the decision on the context is probably the best option. A little time before the combat thinking about the enemies' goals might do the trick, rather than spending that time assigning and tracking these mark numbers.
#4
Gruff_Ironfist
Jun 29, 2010 13:21:49 You'll also run into problems with certain mark-and-forget defenders - Swordmage and Battlemind. They can mark a foe, then move away, get behind cover, put obstacles in the way, get behind allies blocking passage in narrow hallways, etc.

Now if that foe rolls and is compelled to attack the defender, he is going to be wasting his turn trying to get close enough (melee foe) or wasting his turn trying to get line of site/effect (ranged foe). If the foe rolls badly enough, he'll spend the entire fight chasing the defender down while being crushed by allies with impunity.

An intelligent player can really abuse your purposed system. The Swordmage in particular can really work you over, with wandering swordmage PP, total aegis feat and aegis of shielding... that guy can mark everyone on the field and defend his allies with immediates at range 5 or 10 squares (either soaking w/AoShielding, or power immediates like arcane tanglestep, dimensional vortex, transposing lunge, surprising transposition, reaper's challenge, etc.). This Swordmage can stay in total defense with a defender weapon every turn and rely on his immediates for everything else. If the foe is compelled to attack him, he will most likely miss.

Even the Battlemind marking 3 foes (augmented) can do this tactic to some extent. He won't defend as well as the Swordmage, but he can still use Lightning Rush at range 5.

Maybe it would just help you to think of things from a slightly different perspective. Don't worry about who the foe attacks. The defender is defending with his mark, regardless of who the foe attacks. If the foe attacks the defender, he's defending. If the foe attacks an ally, the -2 attack penalty is defending (and any other stuff like free defender attacks or interrupts is icing on the cake). It's just two different sides of the coin.

Thinking of things that way, you might base the decision exlusively on the creature's intelligence, their orders from superiors, their goals, circumstances or my favorite... simply going after who is doing the most damage to them. If the foes have an intelligent leader in their midst, its not unreasonable to think they would send a solider/brute to lock down the PC defender while the rest of the foes go after the PC healer first.

The other odd thing about your system is the who-attacked-last mechanic. So, say, each round the defender attacks last and does very little damage. And all the while, his 3 striker buddies are dishing out huge damage and look particularly squishy. I just don't see the defender getting that 1 modifier to the d6 roll. It's just not incentive enough that he attacked last; especially if the defender is hard to hit. That foe is going to break off and pound the squishy into the floor.

In addition, to my understanding, foes aren't even aware they are marked. All the more reason to just do what they want. Sure, they might eventually realize they aren't hitting the defender's allies as often as they thought they would, but as far as they know, that could just be a power the ally has to defend himself.

I personally find the defender system of 4e to be poorly designed, except the Shielding Swordmage who fits my idea of properly defending allies. But if you just let marked foes do whatever you want or seems reasonable, the game will flow more smoothly.
#5
Ramius613
Jul 02, 2010 0:41:13 Thanks for the feedback. I may give it a try and see if I like it or not (I may remove the +/- 1 part).

One thing to note, Gruff, I am not sure where I read this (I think it may have been in one of the 4e preview books), but one of the things about spell efeects (this includes marks, curses, etc) is that if you put a condition on a monster/player, that player/monster knows what condition is on them.

Ramius
#6
johnnii
Jul 02, 2010 2:59:31 I wouldn't do it as a general rule. Because it's singlehandedly made to screw up a role, it will just hose a player when it comes up all the time. Also, the rules you present are quite a lot of work that would go against my philosophy of DMing 4e

However, a monster special ability that shakes off marks is approved by my book, using it sparingly (like on some Elites and Solos) that symbolises an extremely intelligent oppponent.

Taken from the Sly Flourish blog:
Refocus (Free action, Recharge 5,6)

Remove any existing marks.

Adjust at your leisure (increeasing recharge, making it at-will etc)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Ramius613 Jun 26, 2010 23:41:59	As a DM, I find marks to be somewhat of a hassle. My biggest issue comes down to when should I, as a DM, ingore the mark and go after squishier targets. So I came up with this mechanic to simplify the decision. NOTE: This has no effect on the PCs marking ability, they function as normal, this is mainly a DM tool. My idea is based on the Power recharge system. At the start of a monster's turn, it would roll a d6 if it was marked. If the die result is >= their assigned number, they would ignore the defender's mark and choose a different target. Here is a break down: Minions and low intelligence monsters (oozes, slimes, skeletons, zombies, etc) would not have this feature. Brutes, Soldiers, Artillery, and average intelligence creatures would be able to ignore the mark on a roll of 6+. Skirmishers, Lurkers, Leaders, Controllers, and high intelligence creatures would ignore the mark on a roll of 5+. Elites and Solos ignore the mark on a roll of 4+. Optional features: If defender is last PC to attack monster before its initiative, Roll increases by 1 (4-->5, 5-->6, etc) If monster is attacked by an ally before its initiative, Roll decreases by 1. AP, Daily power from Defender, Roll increases by 1. AP, Daily power from ally, Roll decreases by 1. I think this would be beneficial on both sides of the screen. First, it allows the defender to make use of his marking penalties on a more consistent basis. It frees up the DM from feeling like he is locked in to only attacking the PC that marked him. And finally, it adds some suspense to all the players involved. Gets them thinking, "I can do this HUGE nova that could almost kill this monster in 1 round, but if Frank the Tank doesn't hold him, I am DEAD." Thoughts? Ramius
#2 Bandikoot Jun 27, 2010 0:26:59	It seems like an awful lot of work for something that should be essentially logic based. While I agree that unintelligent creatures will simply attack whatever has them marked, everything else should act in a manner dictated by the encounter. The problem with simply rolling a die is you are going to have creatures "able" to ignore a mark when there is no real reason for them to do so, yet unable to ingore a mark when it is blatantly obvious that they should take the penalty and go after someone else.
#3 Bera Jun 27, 2010 9:05:37	It seems like a little imagination and roleplaying the enemies should give the desired result. Roll a die if you can't decide, but basing the decision on the context is probably the best option. A little time before the combat thinking about the enemies' goals might do the trick, rather than spending that time assigning and tracking these mark numbers.
#4 Gruff_Ironfist Jun 29, 2010 13:21:49	You'll also run into problems with certain mark-and-forget defenders - Swordmage and Battlemind. They can mark a foe, then move away, get behind cover, put obstacles in the way, get behind allies blocking passage in narrow hallways, etc. Now if that foe rolls and is compelled to attack the defender, he is going to be wasting his turn trying to get close enough (melee foe) or wasting his turn trying to get line of site/effect (ranged foe). If the foe rolls badly enough, he'll spend the entire fight chasing the defender down while being crushed by allies with impunity. An intelligent player can really abuse your purposed system. The Swordmage in particular can really work you over, with wandering swordmage PP, total aegis feat and aegis of shielding... that guy can mark everyone on the field and defend his allies with immediates at range 5 or 10 squares (either soaking w/AoShielding, or power immediates like arcane tanglestep, dimensional vortex, transposing lunge, surprising transposition, reaper's challenge, etc.). This Swordmage can stay in total defense with a defender weapon every turn and rely on his immediates for everything else. If the foe is compelled to attack him, he will most likely miss. Even the Battlemind marking 3 foes (augmented) can do this tactic to some extent. He won't defend as well as the Swordmage, but he can still use Lightning Rush at range 5. Maybe it would just help you to think of things from a slightly different perspective. Don't worry about who the foe attacks. The defender is defending with his mark, regardless of who the foe attacks. If the foe attacks the defender, he's defending. If the foe attacks an ally, the -2 attack penalty is defending (and any other stuff like free defender attacks or interrupts is icing on the cake). It's just two different sides of the coin. Thinking of things that way, you might base the decision exlusively on the creature's intelligence, their orders from superiors, their goals, circumstances or my favorite... simply going after who is doing the most damage to them. If the foes have an intelligent leader in their midst, its not unreasonable to think they would send a solider/brute to lock down the PC defender while the rest of the foes go after the PC healer first. The other odd thing about your system is the who-attacked-last mechanic. So, say, each round the defender attacks last and does very little damage. And all the while, his 3 striker buddies are dishing out huge damage and look particularly squishy. I just don't see the defender getting that 1 modifier to the d6 roll. It's just not incentive enough that he attacked last; especially if the defender is hard to hit. That foe is going to break off and pound the squishy into the floor. In addition, to my understanding, foes aren't even aware they are marked. All the more reason to just do what they want. Sure, they might eventually realize they aren't hitting the defender's allies as often as they thought they would, but as far as they know, that could just be a power the ally has to defend himself. I personally find the defender system of 4e to be poorly designed, except the Shielding Swordmage who fits my idea of properly defending allies. But if you just let marked foes do whatever you want or seems reasonable, the game will flow more smoothly.
#5 Ramius613 Jul 02, 2010 0:41:13	Thanks for the feedback. I may give it a try and see if I like it or not (I may remove the +/- 1 part). One thing to note, Gruff, I am not sure where I read this (I think it may have been in one of the 4e preview books), but one of the things about spell efeects (this includes marks, curses, etc) is that if you put a condition on a monster/player, that player/monster knows what condition is on them. Ramius
#6 johnnii Jul 02, 2010 2:59:31	I wouldn't do it as a general rule. Because it's singlehandedly made to screw up a role, it will just hose a player when it comes up all the time. Also, the rules you present are quite a lot of work that would go against my philosophy of DMing 4e However, a monster special ability that shakes off marks is approved by my book, using it sparingly (like on some Elites and Solos) that symbolises an extremely intelligent oppponent. Taken from the Sly Flourish blog: Refocus (Free action, Recharge 5,6) Remove any existing marks. Adjust at your leisure (increeasing recharge, making it at-will etc)