Memorizing skills and powers in 4e - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Memorizing skills and powers in 4e

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
kev777
Aug 30, 2010 9:37:03 Has anyone here introduced memorization back into the 4e game? If so how did you do it?
I was considering just allowing my players to pick 3 times as many powers and spells that they normally get. Then with practice, prayer, or studying each day they could memorize the powers they want. Scrolls could contain any spell (at-will, encounter, daily, etc) and could be learned.

Lately, I was looking over a few of my old characters from 2e and 3e. I was really missing the fact that my characters had so many more options in terms of spells. I really miss the memorization concept that was a unique signature of D&D.

With my 4e characters I find that that my spell casting characters are boring. They are always doing the same thing each encounter. In other editions my characters could memorize dozens of spells from a selection of hundreds.

Sure some might argue that it make D&D too complicated and confused players, but that really didn't mater much once you became familiar (read all your spells over). In fact the complexity was something that I enjoyed about previous editions.

#2
mellored
Aug 30, 2010 10:04:38 Wizards already have this along with a feat to expand the number of known spells. A deva wizard can know 4. There's also a tome option in arcane power that allows you to swap a memorized spell of the fly 1/encounter. There are also a few feats that allow it for martial characters, and reserve maneuver for everyone else. Not to mention the built in retraining when you level.

So the memorising part is already in the game, you just have to pay for your versatility.

The scroll part is intentionally skipped, you don't need to find your powers.
#3
crowscape
Aug 30, 2010 11:00:32 I'm an AD&D and 2e player that's only now coming back (my 4e core rule books are in the mail), and I have the same question. I understand (and like) what WotC has done with the combat system, and the usage of magic within, but at the same time the spell system strikes me as rigid. From what I've seen, the inclusion of a wizard's spellbook in 4e is much like the continued existence of our appendix; WotC just left it there because it's always been there, and it gets the commencerate amount of attention.

One of the reasons that I want to get into 4e is because I really, really liked homebrewing mechanics. I laughed at every assertion that "the DM must" or "the player will" or "under no circumstances" in the 2e "rule" books. What, was TSR going to bust down my door and arrest me? Ha! So, seeing the current magic system and knowing what it used to be like, the prospect of trying to reconcile them--combining the flexibility, expandibility, and easy, story-driven control of the AD&D/2e system with the accessibility of 4e--represents a juicy challenge I cannot resist. Fact is, while I like at-will and encounter spells, I also really like players finding spells in the libraries of the mages they defeat, or the ability to effortlessly create a specialist. Plus, I have these Wizard Spell Compendium books that are useless in 4e. That's a crime!

From everything I've seen, it seems possible (although EVERY SINGLE spell power will need a few more attributes). And I'm not just talking about taking on the arcane powers, but giving similar (but appropriately adjusted) treatment to clerics and psions (But at this point everything I know of psions is from 2e, so who knows). Primarily, I'm looking at something similar to 2e's Player's Option spellpoint system, only instead of all spells requiring the same spellpoints to learn, they will take varying amounts depending (primarily) on whether they are at-will, encounter, or daily. If a wizard (or priest, or even a psion) wants to learn a new "spell," they must clear enough spellpoints to hold it, and then conduct a ritual to lock it in. So, spells are actually rituals that give you permanent powers until you release them.

As a bonus, since I'll be going voer everything anyway to determine spell level and required spell points, each spell/ritual will get a keyword added that classifies it into one or more schools or spheres.

Anyway, that's my crazy homebrew that I'll be working on once the books come in.
#4
bone_naga
Aug 30, 2010 13:37:07 Sounds like you want the Essentials Mage. Memorized daily and encounter powers, specializes, and powers will have school keywords. So most of what you are looking for is already there.
#5
alitain
Aug 30, 2010 14:07:31 The thing is with allowing everyone to pick several different powers and only "memorize" however many you actually can. A lot times people will end up with the same ones anyway. Otherwise, you get into the fact that people then have an array of powerful combo attacks they can pull off.

The wizard makes sense, their attacks are all stored in their book that's what they get their spells from. The other thing to is that a lot of the hundreds of spells in say 3.5 that spell casters learned from my observations seemed to what now are utility spells. In the end though I mean do what you want, just seems like giving the players too many options either because a mess when they have to pick powers, or an abuse of the system(though thats a stretch and just based on the honestly of players).
#6
crowscape
Aug 30, 2010 14:16:28 Bah, you're right. Although no at-will powers in that, but they would be easy enough to add to the progression.

I honestly never bothered to look at "Essentials," because, frankly, it's called "Essentials." I assumed it would be like all other things with the word "essential" in it, which is the name you give the labotomized version that you give away for free with cheap hardware. The idea that it might, possibly move the game back towards 3e never entered my mind.
#7
crowscape
Aug 30, 2010 14:29:26
The thing is with allowing everyone to pick several different powers and only "memorize" however many you actually can. A lot times people will end up with the same ones anyway.

That's the fault of the DM for always having the same spells drop.

But, even if I give free reign to players, more flexibility in spell types allows for the creation of unpredictable villains with powers the players can hope to attain if they so choose. Plus, if players are predictable in their power selection, it just gives the villains that much more of an edge. I have much more justification for building a room that nulifies Magic Missile if the player really does have a slew of other options to choose from.
#8
tequila_sunrise
Aug 30, 2010 15:28:37 I have a variant rule which allows characters to learn powers beyond what the book allows and to memorize which they think they'll need. It works like spell casting in previous editions, except any class can do it. Arcanists have spell books, divine characters have prayer books, martial characters have exercise manuals, etc... So you can trade for new powers, or loot them from captured books.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 kev777 Aug 30, 2010 9:37:03	Has anyone here introduced memorization back into the 4e game? If so how did you do it? I was considering just allowing my players to pick 3 times as many powers and spells that they normally get. Then with practice, prayer, or studying each day they could memorize the powers they want. Scrolls could contain any spell (at-will, encounter, daily, etc) and could be learned. Lately, I was looking over a few of my old characters from 2e and 3e. I was really missing the fact that my characters had so many more options in terms of spells. I really miss the memorization concept that was a unique signature of D&D. With my 4e characters I find that that my spell casting characters are boring. They are always doing the same thing each encounter. In other editions my characters could memorize dozens of spells from a selection of hundreds. Sure some might argue that it make D&D too complicated and confused players, but that really didn't mater much once you became familiar (read all your spells over). In fact the complexity was something that I enjoyed about previous editions.
#2 mellored Aug 30, 2010 10:04:38	Wizards already have this along with a feat to expand the number of known spells. A deva wizard can know 4. There's also a tome option in arcane power that allows you to swap a memorized spell of the fly 1/encounter. There are also a few feats that allow it for martial characters, and reserve maneuver for everyone else. Not to mention the built in retraining when you level. So the memorising part is already in the game, you just have to pay for your versatility. The scroll part is intentionally skipped, you don't need to find your powers.
#3 crowscape Aug 30, 2010 11:00:32	I'm an AD&D and 2e player that's only now coming back (my 4e core rule books are in the mail), and I have the same question. I understand (and like) what WotC has done with the combat system, and the usage of magic within, but at the same time the spell system strikes me as rigid. From what I've seen, the inclusion of a wizard's spellbook in 4e is much like the continued existence of our appendix; WotC just left it there because it's always been there, and it gets the commencerate amount of attention. One of the reasons that I want to get into 4e is because I really, really liked homebrewing mechanics. I laughed at every assertion that "the DM must" or "the player will" or "under no circumstances" in the 2e "rule" books. What, was TSR going to bust down my door and arrest me? Ha! So, seeing the current magic system and knowing what it used to be like, the prospect of trying to reconcile them--combining the flexibility, expandibility, and easy, story-driven control of the AD&D/2e system with the accessibility of 4e--represents a juicy challenge I cannot resist. Fact is, while I like at-will and encounter spells, I also really like players finding spells in the libraries of the mages they defeat, or the ability to effortlessly create a specialist. Plus, I have these Wizard Spell Compendium books that are useless in 4e. That's a crime! From everything I've seen, it seems possible (although EVERY SINGLE spell power will need a few more attributes). And I'm not just talking about taking on the arcane powers, but giving similar (but appropriately adjusted) treatment to clerics and psions (But at this point everything I know of psions is from 2e, so who knows). Primarily, I'm looking at something similar to 2e's Player's Option spellpoint system, only instead of all spells requiring the same spellpoints to learn, they will take varying amounts depending (primarily) on whether they are at-will, encounter, or daily. If a wizard (or priest, or even a psion) wants to learn a new "spell," they must clear enough spellpoints to hold it, and then conduct a ritual to lock it in. So, spells are actually rituals that give you permanent powers until you release them. As a bonus, since I'll be going voer everything anyway to determine spell level and required spell points, each spell/ritual will get a keyword added that classifies it into one or more schools or spheres. Anyway, that's my crazy homebrew that I'll be working on once the books come in.
#4 bone_naga Aug 30, 2010 13:37:07	Sounds like you want the Essentials Mage. Memorized daily and encounter powers, specializes, and powers will have school keywords. So most of what you are looking for is already there.
#5 alitain Aug 30, 2010 14:07:31	The thing is with allowing everyone to pick several different powers and only "memorize" however many you actually can. A lot times people will end up with the same ones anyway. Otherwise, you get into the fact that people then have an array of powerful combo attacks they can pull off. The wizard makes sense, their attacks are all stored in their book that's what they get their spells from. The other thing to is that a lot of the hundreds of spells in say 3.5 that spell casters learned from my observations seemed to what now are utility spells. In the end though I mean do what you want, just seems like giving the players too many options either because a mess when they have to pick powers, or an abuse of the system(though thats a stretch and just based on the honestly of players).
#6 crowscape Aug 30, 2010 14:16:28	Bah, you're right. Although no at-will powers in that, but they would be easy enough to add to the progression. I honestly never bothered to look at "Essentials," because, frankly, it's called "Essentials." I assumed it would be like all other things with the word "essential" in it, which is the name you give the labotomized version that you give away for free with cheap hardware. The idea that it might, possibly move the game back towards 3e never entered my mind.
#7 crowscape Aug 30, 2010 14:29:26	The thing is with allowing everyone to pick several different powers and only "memorize" however many you actually can. A lot times people will end up with the same ones anyway. That's the fault of the DM for always having the same spells drop. But, even if I give free reign to players, more flexibility in spell types allows for the creation of unpredictable villains with powers the players can hope to attain if they so choose. Plus, if players are predictable in their power selection, it just gives the villains that much more of an edge. I have much more justification for building a room that nulifies Magic Missile if the player really does have a slew of other options to choose from.
#8 tequila_sunrise Aug 30, 2010 15:28:37	I have a variant rule which allows characters to learn powers beyond what the book allows and to memorize which they think they'll need. It works like spell casting in previous editions, except any class can do it. Arcanists have spell books, divine characters have prayer books, martial characters have exercise manuals, etc... So you can trade for new powers, or loot them from captured books.