Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 endarian_dup Jun 17, 2008 9:17:18	REPOST from a discussion in the General Forum discussing Healing I'd like to address the concept of Hp's as I always understood them as they relate to healing prior to 4e. Maybe this will clear things up as to understanding my way of thinking. I hate that I'm lumped into the the 'Hit is a Hit' crowd without you understanding this part. I have always understood that HP's were an abstraction of skill, luck, endurance AND physical ability to withstand damage. Using the proverbial example from above where we have a 1st level character and a 10th level character (10 and 100 HP's respectfully) both getting hit by a sword for 10 Hp's of damage, we find the following. 1. The damage knocks the 1st level fighter out. 2. The damage is only 1/10 the way to knocking the second fighter out. Why? The thrust was the same. In the first example, the 1st level fighter did nothing to mitigate the thrust. He doesn't know how. So, he is unconscious and going to die from a sword in his ribs unless he gets help. The 10th level fighter has learned to dodge, twist, parry or otherwise shift to mitigate the blow. It is STILL the same thrust, but the result varys. He could take 10 such thrusts before going unconsious. Is his BODY different...no...it's his ability to dodge, weave, parry and the inherent 'sixth' sense he's cultivated in years of combat to mitigate. So, this leaves us to healing. In previous editions, healing without magic was slow. In 1st/2nd, it was painfully slow. At that time, I houseruled that healing would now be done at CHARACTER LEVEL + CON MOD per night. Assuming both of our warriors have a '0' con modifier (silly, for a fighter, but bare with me), it will take our stablized 1st level 10 days to recover from his wound, and 1 day for our 10th level fighter to recover from his. Had the 10th level fighter taken 10 thrusts of the same sword, it would have taken him 10 days to recover. PC's with higher con modifiers augment this healing. With a +2 con modifier, the 1st level character would take just over 3 nights to heal from this wound. Is it realistic? Not really. It took me six months to heal from a broken knee. But, as many of you have stated, this is supposed to be a game about fun and your characters are heroic icons. And we really didn't have rules for broken bones...just cuts and abraisions. But in our heads, we can see wounds mending in a matter of days, to a point where you can adventure again. Now add in magical healing. In all versions, magic is a trump card. Magic can do anything. The rules govern what magical effects are balanced, but it's easy for us to believe that People can fly, turn invisable, fall without harm, shoot fireballs, and magically knit our bodies back together. As long as magic is involved, whether it is a Paladin, cleric, Warlord, potion, wand or scroll, we believe. Magic is a static thing, however. A 10 HP Cure will have different overall impact based upon the person. If you are using HP's as a relative to Level, as I've done using my healing rule, then that 10HP Cure will have about the same effect. It's dramatically wounderful to the 1st level guy...and will heal about 1 nights wounds to the 10th level guy. As Clerics and others get more skillful, they have access to spells that are more effective for the 10th level guy. Now, lets look at 4e healing. There is an inherent *flaw* to my logic...or their logic... if someone can heal all of their HP loss at the end of a six hour period. That flaw is that wounds can't be healed that quickly, so the PC's aren't really taking those wounds. In my thought process above, physical was part of the overall equation, scaling upward with level. In 4e, I can't make the mental leap that physical is any part of HPs. If that is true, then all 'HITS' are actually near misses, and HP's just reduce the non physcial attributes I've already discussed. I think most of us can buy into this up until three aspects of the game. 1. Bloodied 2. Critical Hits 3. Unconcsious Bloodied is either an unfortunate term to represent 1/2 our hp's (which must not have any part of the physical aspect of our body) OR it really does mean that we've taken physical harm. For Critical Hits, we can believe that there is no physical aspect...It's just so close that it forces an extreme amount of luck or skill to avoid....but it makes more sense that Critical Hits connect and do physical harm. For Unconscious, you *can* make the case that you fight to a point where you are exhausted...but given that each melee round is six seconds, and that adreline will keep you going from an endurance perspective, it stretches the imagination. Instead, most of the 'Hit is not a Hit' crowd acknowledge that at that point, our hero drops his gaurd and actually does get hit. This hit will either be lethal, or it will not be a wound because the flat of the blade or the bluntest spike will hit. During the combat, a PC is using Healing Surges. Healing surges make sense in the Endurance, luck, wind perspective - but not with physical damage. This is, of course, where both sides of this argument sit. If you believe that HP's are not physical at all, then surges make sense. If you believe that HP's have a physical componant, like I do, then Surges break down in the 'How did that wound heal without magic?' department. What I now believe HP's remain a mix of physical, mental, luck, endurance, skill and level attributes. Hits do hit the body, as they did in my thinking for previous editions. As with my previous thought, the skill, luck and endurance of a person minimizes these physical wounds to a point where they can be dealt with minimal effort. At certain points during combat...At the Bloodied Mark and the Unconscious Mark for sure, and possibly at a Critical Hit mark, the character takes a wound. Wounds will have two aspects - Encounter or Lingering. On a d10, 1-7 will be encounter and 8-10 will be Lingering. As Wrecan, and so many others pointed out, no version has given negative modifiers for wounds. This changes here. Both Encounter and Lingering wounds have a -1 modifier to all rolls of the dice except the death and dying rolls, which stay as written. This modifier represents the temporary or Lingering wound the PC is dealing with. To avoid too much administration, only the first time a player is dealt a Critical Hit, dips below Bloodied or below 0 hp's will a modifier be applied. At most, this gives a -3. This is not much worse than granting combat advantage. I've also not given a negative to defenses, although it's worth considering. I don't want to kill my PC's, however, I want to scare them. As a DM, I'm writing a story where the PC's are the main characters and have impact on the story. In my years of DMing, I've killed remarkably few characters...without fudging...because it is definately NOT fun. Being harmed and worrying about how to succeed in adverse conditions, however, is fun. (To my gaming group anyway) Healing these wounds will not be difficult...but it will be done in a way that allows us to maintain the vermisulitude we crave. Encounter wounds go away after a brief rest. Lingering wounds will require a Heal check, Magic or Bedrest. The heal check will be high (DC 20 at 1st level and possibly scaling in some way). Most groups will have access to healing magic, however. A Healing Touch, a Lay on Hands or a Warlords ability to heal will all negate this penalty. Why? Because it's magic. And I believe in the benefits of Magic in game. Lingering wounds that aren't healed will have the following effects. The modifier will remain. HP's will be surged as per the rules as written. If you rest 6 hours, you will have full HP's. For every extended rest that doesn't get resolved, there is a chance of contracting a disease. Disease Festering Wound Level 5 Disease The wound you have taken has festered and, as a result, your body is beginning to run down Attack +7 vs Fortitude; Endurance Improve DC 21, Maintain DC 18, Worsen DC 17 or worse Disease Track The Target is Cured << Initial Effect - Target loses one healing surge that it cannot regain until curred <<>> The Target is slowed by 1 square >> Final State - The Target is slowed by 2 squares, losses 2 healing surges and has an additional -1 modifier to die rolls and defenses. It's OK if you don't like these rules. These rules add back the grittiness that my group has always played with and gives us back a belief that there can be negative results from extended playing with pointy objects. It allows the Surge system to work almost as written and balances believability with playing a game and having fun. As most PC's will have some means of magical healing with them, they will probably avoid the disease, but if someone wanders off without magical healing, it will make sense that they can't just overcome all wounds and keep going with never a thought to needing it.
#2 kouk Jun 17, 2008 14:20:08	I think of "Second Wind" more like adrenaline surges, or extreme mental focus keeping your body moving when it wants to stop. If you agree that magic fixes everything, I think you are overlooking the aspect that during a 6-hour extended rest period, characters with healing powers/magic (almost certainly there will be at least one) such as a Cleric's or Warlord's Minor Action heal will refresh every 5 minutes. Healing Surges in general are just a mechanical sort of limit on what you can do in a single day. Perhaps more along the lines of exhaustion/endurance. The magical effects can trigger healing, but it is taxing on your body in the long run until you take a nice long rest. Another possibility, is that even when a creature is called "human" it is not a human in the sense of the real world. In Star Wars, there were ostensibly humans everywhere, but they couldn't really be humans because that was a long time ago in a galaxy far away. In the D&D world, "humans" look like us, but races heal much faster, or their world is so suffused with magic that any creatures heal much faster. But you are free to make any rules you wish to, as long as everyone in your group likes them.