Metropolis Demographics - What level are those citizens? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Metropolis Demographics - What level are those citizens?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
bobjoejim
Feb 08, 2009 17:57:16 I'm building a city (population 65,000) to be the main focal point of an urban-based campaign. Right now I'm trying to roughly map out how many NPCs there are of each level, among those 65,000, and was hoping for some input.

What percentage of the city's population would you suggest be level 1? How rapidly does population go down as level goes up through heroic tier? (IE are there 50% as many level 5 NPCs as there are level 4s? 75%? 25%? 10%?)

How common are paragon tier level NPCs? Does a city of 65,000 have a couple dozen of them? A couple hundred? A couple thousand? More? Less?

What about epic tier, are there any? Just a couple? A dozen? A couple dozen? More? How high in epic do they cap out at?

I realize that there are many different ways to answer these questions and that it mostly depends on the general flavor desired. I do have some thoughts of my own on what direction to take it, but I'd also really appreciate hearing what some other people think about these questions. A little extra input to help me revise my plans. Thanks!
#2
Medriev
Feb 09, 2009 15:08:01 Personally, I am intending to use something very similar to the 3.xE town generation rules adapted for 4E classes. At the moment, my working draft looks like this for generating the highest level NPCs in any community. This is adapted from the tables in the 3E DMG and the Epic Level Handbook. Forgot to add Swordmage in the first draft but would probably give them the same die roll as Wizards and Sorcerers. The levels for PHB2 classes are based on current information and may need to change once the book comes out.

Community Size Modifier
Thorp -3
Hamlet -2
Village -1
Small Town +0
Large Town +4
Small City +8 (roll twice)
Large City +12 (roll three times)
Metropolis +16 (roll four times)
Planar Metropolis +20 (roll six times)

On a d% roll of 96-00 a thorp ot hamlet adds +10 to ranger, druid or shaman.

Class Character Level
Avenger 1d3 + modifier
Barbarian 1d4 + modifier
Bard 1d6 + modifier
Druid 1d6 + modifier
Cleric 1d6 + modifier
Fighter 1d8 + modifier
Invoker 1d6 + modifier
Paladin 1d3 + modifier
Ranger 1d3 + modifier
Rogue 1d8 + modifier
Shaman 1d4 + modifier
Sorcerer 1d4 + modifier
Warden 1d6 + modifier
Warlock 1d4 + modifier
Warlord 1d8 + modifier
Wizard 1d4 + modifier

Disappointed that 4E has not got something like this yet but it is likely because the intention of the system is for the DM to place appropriate challenges for PCs wherever they are needed. That said, I need the fluff of having levels and classes for the key NPCs of a community, hence the above.
#3
Thought
Feb 09, 2009 16:09:40 Well, 4e uses the idea that PC's (and thus the classes) are rare; even at level 1 they are heroes of some repute.

As such, NPCs in a city should usually be just the base races from the MM. That doesn't mean that all the NPCs should be from there; a few fancy ones can be called for.

For a city of 65,000 I'd probably have around 10 or so NPCs with classes, ranging throughout the Heoric Tier and the very beginnings of the Paragon Tier (nothing over lvl 12), depending on what the city needs. There might be four or five epic tier NPCs in the entire world.

I'd probably actually only use one or two Paragon level characters in this city, depending on what the story needs. These are incredibly famous individuals whom the party has probably heard of before reaching the city; the ruler of the city who saved it from a sphinx years before (such as Oedipus did), for example.

Then there'd be a smattering of other NPCs, generally one of each class to provide the relevant skills and abilities if necessary. While these people might not be known throughout the kingdom, they are well known locally. Such as
Grump the Dragonborn Master of the Swords, who is a retired veteran and a general in the Orcish-Canadian War. He might be a level 8 Warlord. Bibben the Bold, the halfling wizard who has been making a name for himself with his charm-work, might be only around lvl 3 or 4. Course you can't forget Lilpot, the Archpriest of Bahamut, who has spent her entire life in the service of that god. She's an amazingly high lvl 5 Cleric.

If there is a particular reason for famous people to be congregating in the city (there's a wizarding academy, etc) I might up that number. And smaller cities get fewer classed NPCs, though I still generally have a few lvl 2 or 3s "wandering" through the area so that even thorps might see one, if the story calls for it.
#4
SoulCatcher78
Feb 09, 2009 17:34:10
Well, 4e uses the idea that PC's (and thus the classes) are rare; even at level 1 they are heroes of some repute.

As such, NPCs in a city should usually be just the base races from the MM. That doesn't mean that all the NPCs should be from there; a few fancy ones can be called for.

For a city of 65,000 I'd probably have around 10 or so NPCs with classes, ranging throughout the Heoric Tier and the very beginnings of the Paragon Tier (nothing over lvl 12), depending on what the city needs. There might be four or five epic tier NPCs in the entire world.

I'd probably actually only use one or two Paragon level characters in this city, depending on what the story needs. These are incredibly famous individuals whom the party has probably heard of before reaching the city; the ruler of the city who saved it from a sphinx years before (such as Oedipus did), for example.

Then there'd be a smattering of other NPCs, generally one of each class to provide the relevant skills and abilities if necessary. While these people might not be known throughout the kingdom, they are well known locally. Such as
Grump the Dragonborn Master of the Swords, who is a retired veteran and a general in the Orcish-Canadian War. He might be a level 8 Warlord. Bibben the Bold, the halfling wizard who has been making a name for himself with his charm-work, might be only around lvl 3 or 4. Course you can't forget Lilpot, the Archpriest of Bahamut, who has spent her entire life in the service of that god. She's an amazingly high lvl 5 Cleric.

If there is a particular reason for famous people to be congregating in the city (there's a wizarding academy, etc) I might up that number. And smaller cities get fewer classed NPCs, though I still generally have a few lvl 2 or 3s "wandering" through the area so that even thorps might see one, if the story calls for it.

+1
#5
Medriev
Feb 10, 2009 12:58:57
Well, 4e uses the idea that PC's (and thus the classes) are rare; even at level 1 they are heroes of some repute.

As such, NPCs in a city should usually be just the base races from the MM. That doesn't mean that all the NPCs should be from there; a few fancy ones can be called for.

For a city of 65,000 I'd probably have around 10 or so NPCs with classes, ranging throughout the Heoric Tier and the very beginnings of the Paragon Tier (nothing over lvl 12), depending on what the city needs. There might be four or five epic tier NPCs in the entire world.

I'd probably actually only use one or two Paragon level characters in this city, depending on what the story needs. These are incredibly famous individuals whom the party has probably heard of before reaching the city; the ruler of the city who saved it from a sphinx years before (such as Oedipus did), for example.

Then there'd be a smattering of other NPCs, generally one of each class to provide the relevant skills and abilities if necessary. While these people might not be known throughout the kingdom, they are well known locally. Such as
Grump the Dragonborn Master of the Swords, who is a retired veteran and a general in the Orcish-Canadian War. He might be a level 8 Warlord. Bibben the Bold, the halfling wizard who has been making a name for himself with his charm-work, might be only around lvl 3 or 4. Course you can't forget Lilpot, the Archpriest of Bahamut, who has spent her entire life in the service of that god. She's an amazingly high lvl 5 Cleric.

If there is a particular reason for famous people to be congregating in the city (there's a wizarding academy, etc) I might up that number. And smaller cities get fewer classed NPCs, though I still generally have a few lvl 2 or 3s "wandering" through the area so that even thorps might see one, if the story calls for it.

Agree with the logic of this from a game point of view as this certainly keeps the focus on the PCs but from a world point of view, you are going to need more than a handful of NPCs to keep the monsters of the wider world at bay. The 4E templates can certainly fill out the bulk of the population but rulers and military leaders need to have some power or their homes would have been overrun in the first orc invasion (especially as orcs now start as level 3 monsters and go up from there).

The other thing I liked about the 3.x system was that it generally gave you half a dozen hooks for each community as soon as you generated it. Eg. you roll an evil cleric in a good town then he/she likely heads a cult of some kind, you roll a druid in a city then he/she needs somewhere to worship (stone circle, wooded shrine etc.).

In the end, it's whatever works for you but as I said above, I love the fluff that gets generated from a few die rolls. Some prefer building up a small selection of NPCs and that's all good too :D
#6
Thought
Feb 10, 2009 13:19:07
Agree with the logic of this from a game point of view as this certainly keeps the focus on the PCs but from a world point of view, you are going to need more than a handful of NPCs to keep the monsters of the wider world at bay.

While I whole heartedly agree that in the end, what matters most is what works for you, I'd disagree with this specific objection of yours.

4e treats monsters likewise; they're rare. There aren't entire environments filled with these beasties; rather, they tend to be top tier predators and thus are also limited. Think about how Dire Bears live alongside Brown Bears, or Bassilisks around Deer. The monsters will decimate the local population and thus be kept in check by sheer want of food.

Admittedly, Heroic Tier monsters might be relatively common, certainly common enough to cause problems for a city, but Paragon monsters would be rare seen, pestering fortified cities only occasionally (but requiring individuals of renown to save the place), and Epic monsters are largely things of legends that people doubt exist (unless they are very real to the people of the city, in which case you have your adventure right there).

But as you said, whatever works for you.
#7
Medriev
Feb 10, 2009 13:40:03
4e treats monsters likewise; they're rare. There aren't entire environments filled with these beasties; rather, they tend to be top tier predators and thus are also limited. Think about how Dire Bears live alongside Brown Bears, or Bassilisks around Deer. The monsters will decimate the local population and thus be kept in check by sheer want of food.

Fair point. I suspect I am still stuck in a 3E mentality since the things I disliked about 4E were essentially the changes to the campaign worlds. I love the 4E mechanics and the flow of play that they create but essentially I am playing a 3E world with 4E mechanics.

I only offer the above as an option should the OP or anyone else want to use it. If you are using a pure 4E mythology as background then I am sure that your system will be a better way to go.
#8
Thought
Feb 10, 2009 14:24:50 Heh, whereas one of the things that I like about 4e is the campaign world.

Which just goes to show how different approaches are useful when people emphasize different aspects of the game.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 bobjoejim Feb 08, 2009 17:57:16	I'm building a city (population 65,000) to be the main focal point of an urban-based campaign. Right now I'm trying to roughly map out how many NPCs there are of each level, among those 65,000, and was hoping for some input. What percentage of the city's population would you suggest be level 1? How rapidly does population go down as level goes up through heroic tier? (IE are there 50% as many level 5 NPCs as there are level 4s? 75%? 25%? 10%?) How common are paragon tier level NPCs? Does a city of 65,000 have a couple dozen of them? A couple hundred? A couple thousand? More? Less? What about epic tier, are there any? Just a couple? A dozen? A couple dozen? More? How high in epic do they cap out at? I realize that there are many different ways to answer these questions and that it mostly depends on the general flavor desired. I do have some thoughts of my own on what direction to take it, but I'd also really appreciate hearing what some other people think about these questions. A little extra input to help me revise my plans. Thanks!
#2 Medriev Feb 09, 2009 15:08:01	Personally, I am intending to use something very similar to the 3.xE town generation rules adapted for 4E classes. At the moment, my working draft looks like this for generating the highest level NPCs in any community. This is adapted from the tables in the 3E DMG and the Epic Level Handbook. Forgot to add Swordmage in the first draft but would probably give them the same die roll as Wizards and Sorcerers. The levels for PHB2 classes are based on current information and may need to change once the book comes out. Community Size Modifier Thorp -3 Hamlet -2 Village -1 Small Town +0 Large Town +4 Small City +8 (roll twice) Large City +12 (roll three times) Metropolis +16 (roll four times) Planar Metropolis +20 (roll six times) On a d% roll of 96-00 a thorp ot hamlet adds +10 to ranger, druid or shaman. Class Character Level Avenger 1d3 + modifier Barbarian 1d4 + modifier Bard 1d6 + modifier Druid 1d6 + modifier Cleric 1d6 + modifier Fighter 1d8 + modifier Invoker 1d6 + modifier Paladin 1d3 + modifier Ranger 1d3 + modifier Rogue 1d8 + modifier Shaman 1d4 + modifier Sorcerer 1d4 + modifier Warden 1d6 + modifier Warlock 1d4 + modifier Warlord 1d8 + modifier Wizard 1d4 + modifier Disappointed that 4E has not got something like this yet but it is likely because the intention of the system is for the DM to place appropriate challenges for PCs wherever they are needed. That said, I need the fluff of having levels and classes for the key NPCs of a community, hence the above.
#3 Thought Feb 09, 2009 16:09:40	Well, 4e uses the idea that PC's (and thus the classes) are rare; even at level 1 they are heroes of some repute. As such, NPCs in a city should usually be just the base races from the MM. That doesn't mean that all the NPCs should be from there; a few fancy ones can be called for. For a city of 65,000 I'd probably have around 10 or so NPCs with classes, ranging throughout the Heoric Tier and the very beginnings of the Paragon Tier (nothing over lvl 12), depending on what the city needs. There might be four or five epic tier NPCs in the entire world. I'd probably actually only use one or two Paragon level characters in this city, depending on what the story needs. These are incredibly famous individuals whom the party has probably heard of before reaching the city; the ruler of the city who saved it from a sphinx years before (such as Oedipus did), for example. Then there'd be a smattering of other NPCs, generally one of each class to provide the relevant skills and abilities if necessary. While these people might not be known throughout the kingdom, they are well known locally. Such as Grump the Dragonborn Master of the Swords, who is a retired veteran and a general in the Orcish-Canadian War. He might be a level 8 Warlord. Bibben the Bold, the halfling wizard who has been making a name for himself with his charm-work, might be only around lvl 3 or 4. Course you can't forget Lilpot, the Archpriest of Bahamut, who has spent her entire life in the service of that god. She's an amazingly high lvl 5 Cleric. If there is a particular reason for famous people to be congregating in the city (there's a wizarding academy, etc) I might up that number. And smaller cities get fewer classed NPCs, though I still generally have a few lvl 2 or 3s "wandering" through the area so that even thorps might see one, if the story calls for it.
#4 SoulCatcher78 Feb 09, 2009 17:34:10	Well, 4e uses the idea that PC's (and thus the classes) are rare; even at level 1 they are heroes of some repute. As such, NPCs in a city should usually be just the base races from the MM. That doesn't mean that all the NPCs should be from there; a few fancy ones can be called for. For a city of 65,000 I'd probably have around 10 or so NPCs with classes, ranging throughout the Heoric Tier and the very beginnings of the Paragon Tier (nothing over lvl 12), depending on what the city needs. There might be four or five epic tier NPCs in the entire world. I'd probably actually only use one or two Paragon level characters in this city, depending on what the story needs. These are incredibly famous individuals whom the party has probably heard of before reaching the city; the ruler of the city who saved it from a sphinx years before (such as Oedipus did), for example. Then there'd be a smattering of other NPCs, generally one of each class to provide the relevant skills and abilities if necessary. While these people might not be known throughout the kingdom, they are well known locally. Such as Grump the Dragonborn Master of the Swords, who is a retired veteran and a general in the Orcish-Canadian War. He might be a level 8 Warlord. Bibben the Bold, the halfling wizard who has been making a name for himself with his charm-work, might be only around lvl 3 or 4. Course you can't forget Lilpot, the Archpriest of Bahamut, who has spent her entire life in the service of that god. She's an amazingly high lvl 5 Cleric. If there is a particular reason for famous people to be congregating in the city (there's a wizarding academy, etc) I might up that number. And smaller cities get fewer classed NPCs, though I still generally have a few lvl 2 or 3s "wandering" through the area so that even thorps might see one, if the story calls for it. +1
#5 Medriev Feb 10, 2009 12:58:57	Well, 4e uses the idea that PC's (and thus the classes) are rare; even at level 1 they are heroes of some repute. As such, NPCs in a city should usually be just the base races from the MM. That doesn't mean that all the NPCs should be from there; a few fancy ones can be called for. For a city of 65,000 I'd probably have around 10 or so NPCs with classes, ranging throughout the Heoric Tier and the very beginnings of the Paragon Tier (nothing over lvl 12), depending on what the city needs. There might be four or five epic tier NPCs in the entire world. I'd probably actually only use one or two Paragon level characters in this city, depending on what the story needs. These are incredibly famous individuals whom the party has probably heard of before reaching the city; the ruler of the city who saved it from a sphinx years before (such as Oedipus did), for example. Then there'd be a smattering of other NPCs, generally one of each class to provide the relevant skills and abilities if necessary. While these people might not be known throughout the kingdom, they are well known locally. Such as Grump the Dragonborn Master of the Swords, who is a retired veteran and a general in the Orcish-Canadian War. He might be a level 8 Warlord. Bibben the Bold, the halfling wizard who has been making a name for himself with his charm-work, might be only around lvl 3 or 4. Course you can't forget Lilpot, the Archpriest of Bahamut, who has spent her entire life in the service of that god. She's an amazingly high lvl 5 Cleric. If there is a particular reason for famous people to be congregating in the city (there's a wizarding academy, etc) I might up that number. And smaller cities get fewer classed NPCs, though I still generally have a few lvl 2 or 3s "wandering" through the area so that even thorps might see one, if the story calls for it. Agree with the logic of this from a game point of view as this certainly keeps the focus on the PCs but from a world point of view, you are going to need more than a handful of NPCs to keep the monsters of the wider world at bay. The 4E templates can certainly fill out the bulk of the population but rulers and military leaders need to have some power or their homes would have been overrun in the first orc invasion (especially as orcs now start as level 3 monsters and go up from there). The other thing I liked about the 3.x system was that it generally gave you half a dozen hooks for each community as soon as you generated it. Eg. you roll an evil cleric in a good town then he/she likely heads a cult of some kind, you roll a druid in a city then he/she needs somewhere to worship (stone circle, wooded shrine etc.). In the end, it's whatever works for you but as I said above, I love the fluff that gets generated from a few die rolls. Some prefer building up a small selection of NPCs and that's all good too :D
#6 Thought Feb 10, 2009 13:19:07	Agree with the logic of this from a game point of view as this certainly keeps the focus on the PCs but from a world point of view, you are going to need more than a handful of NPCs to keep the monsters of the wider world at bay. While I whole heartedly agree that in the end, what matters most is what works for you, I'd disagree with this specific objection of yours. 4e treats monsters likewise; they're rare. There aren't entire environments filled with these beasties; rather, they tend to be top tier predators and thus are also limited. Think about how Dire Bears live alongside Brown Bears, or Bassilisks around Deer. The monsters will decimate the local population and thus be kept in check by sheer want of food. Admittedly, Heroic Tier monsters might be relatively common, certainly common enough to cause problems for a city, but Paragon monsters would be rare seen, pestering fortified cities only occasionally (but requiring individuals of renown to save the place), and Epic monsters are largely things of legends that people doubt exist (unless they are very real to the people of the city, in which case you have your adventure right there). But as you said, whatever works for you.
#7 Medriev Feb 10, 2009 13:40:03	4e treats monsters likewise; they're rare. There aren't entire environments filled with these beasties; rather, they tend to be top tier predators and thus are also limited. Think about how Dire Bears live alongside Brown Bears, or Bassilisks around Deer. The monsters will decimate the local population and thus be kept in check by sheer want of food. Fair point. I suspect I am still stuck in a 3E mentality since the things I disliked about 4E were essentially the changes to the campaign worlds. I love the 4E mechanics and the flow of play that they create but essentially I am playing a 3E world with 4E mechanics. I only offer the above as an option should the OP or anyone else want to use it. If you are using a pure 4E mythology as background then I am sure that your system will be a better way to go.
#8 Thought Feb 10, 2009 14:24:50	Heh, whereas one of the things that I like about 4e is the campaign world. Which just goes to show how different approaches are useful when people emphasize different aspects of the game.