Minimal change to multiclassing? (PEACH please) - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Minimal change to multiclassing? (PEACH please)

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Scottomir
Jun 21, 2008 12:22:47 As several threads across these boards have addressed, the 4E approach to multiclassing seems somewhat amiss. One major complaint is that the benefit of multiclassing is lop-sided: the initial feat provides valuable effects (especially at the cost of just 1 feat), but the Novice/Acolyte/Adept Power feats provide less return and Paragon Multiclassing the least of all.

While I share concern about the front-loaded multiclassing benefits, ultimately I feel that the biggest problem is that Paragon Multiclassing isn't a fully viable option when compared to the Paths. Shouldn't both routes be attractive? That said, I would prefer to address this without a major rewrite. While some players may want hugely rewritten house rules, I suspect I'm not alone in wondering if there is a way to touch up multiclassing (particuarly Paragon Multiclassing) with minimal changes.

Here's the best idea for "minimum change" I could come up with, and I'm not convinced how balanced it is. That's why I'd welcome critique and feedback.

* KEEP ALL MULTICLASSING FEATS AS WRITTEN
* If a character who possesses a class-specific multiclass feat, Novice Power, Acolyte Power, and Adept Power chooses Paragon Multiclassing (PHB, p. 209), at 11th level the character also gains the listed weapon proficiencies, armor proficiencies, and implements for the class that he/she multiclassed into.
* If a character chooses Paragon Multiclassing into the Cleric or Wizard class, at 11th level he/she also gains Ritual Casting.
* If a character chooses Paragon Multiclassing into the Warlock class, at 11th level he/she also gains the use of the class feature Warlock's Curse (PHB, p. 131) once per encounter. Furthermore, the pact chosen for the Pact Initiate feat now applies to the character's Warlock powers.

* * *

My thinking here is to give a character who goes all-in for Paragon Multiclassing slightly more of a semblance of the multiclassed class through their allowed armaments. Clearly, this favors the Fighter, Paladin, Warlord, and Ranger classes. Hence, the extra listed effects for multiclassing into Cleric, Wizard, or Warlock.

Not sure if the Rogue needs an extra effect or what it should be...?

Again, my interest is for a fix that is simple, avoids monkeying with the core mechanic, and doesn't require a full rule rewrite. I appreciate any feedback or advice folks can provide!
#2
comvor
Jun 21, 2008 18:09:48 Personally even that wouldn't really make multiclassing worthwhile to me, unless I approach it from the class that doesn't get much proficiencies to the class that does. To make it worthwhile to go into any class I'd suggest class features rather then proficiencies. Two at 11th, probably the one that you got from the multiclass feat in the first place, and one or two depending on the class at 16th. Thus you make it work closer to a paragon path and make it wothwhile, as some class abilities require certain class features.
#3
Scottomir
Jun 22, 2008 13:25:23
Personally even that wouldn't really make multiclassing worthwhile to me, unless I approach it from the class that doesn't get much proficiencies to the class that does.

Yeah, I wondered about that. Still, I really would like a "minimal" solution that doesn't necessitate a major rewrite. Maybe WotC will realize that the multiclassing as-is doesn't satisfy and will release a "4E Complete Guide to Multiclassing" in the future. ;)

But perhaps Comvor is right that any Paragon Multiclassing solution which doesn't include class features is always going to be unsatisfying. The idea of trying to mirror the progression of Paragon Paths is useful, because it could allow a class feature-based solution which doesn't require a major rewrite outside of the given core rules. So let me try to expand upon Comvor's idea...

PARAGON MULTICLASSING:

All feats remain as written.

At 11th level, you gain the full benefits of the class feature from your initial class-specific multiclass feat and can use it just like a normal member of that class.* Furthermore, choose one of the following additional benefits of the class you multiclass into: gain the class's listed weapon proficiencies; gain the class's listed armor proficiencies; gain one other listed class feature.

At 16th level, choose one more additional benefit of the class you multiclass into (weapon proficiencies, armor proficiencies, or class feature).

*****

This approach doesn't seem to require much of a rewrite either and keeps within the core mechanic. Basically, it upgrades the initial multiclass feat benefit and eventually provides 2 more class features. So now a 16th level Paragon multiclasser ends up with 3 full class features from the chosen multiclass (including, if the player so desires, that class's weapon and/or armor proficiencies). This sounds like it could potentially be an easy, satisfying, and flexible solution.

Of course, leave it to WotC to make sure one class always must be an outlier. In this case, it is the Fighter...since the Student of the Sword feat doesn't specifically grant Fighter Weapon Talent or Combat Challenge, but instead a weakened hybrid of both. Thus, the above solution would require one special asterisked note:

* If you multiclass into the Fighter class, you gain the full benefit of your previously chosen Fighter Weapon Talent. However, the ability to mark a foe granted by your Student of the Sword feat still may be used only once per encounter (unless you acquire the Combat Challenge class feature).
#4
comvor
Jun 22, 2008 15:32:26 Sounds good. Now that's a multiclass I'd be willing to try out. I'm going to try to get my DM to allow it when I game with him today.
#5
klaustheprince
Jun 22, 2008 17:10:42
At 16th level, choose one more additional benefit of the class you multiclass into (weapon proficiencies, armor proficiencies, or class feature).

That's much more convenient than taking Weapon Proficiency and Armor Proficiency feats. Sounds broken.
#6
comvor
Jun 23, 2008 2:05:11 Yeah, I'm hoping that's the only reason my DM nixed it.
#7
Scottomir
Jun 23, 2008 15:59:11
That's much more convenient than taking Weapon Proficiency and Armor Proficiency feats. Sounds broken.

Hmm, I'd be curious to hear why other DMs feel it may be broken. By not providing a way for multiclassing to provide proficiencies, whole multiclass combinations become virtually worthless. For example, it isn't viable for a wizard to consider multiclassing as a fighter or ranger because they'd still be stuck only being proficient with cloth armor, staffs and daggers. And since 4E got rid of the "grouped" proficiency feats and now make you learn every piece of armor as an individual feat, a melee multiclasser is out of luck (considering that they already must spend 4 feats to become a Paragon Multiclasser, it would take like another 4-5 feats to gain all the weapon and armor proficiencies of a fighter or paladin).

Using this approach, a wizard who multiclasses as a fighter (for example) could acquire all the fighter Armor proficiencies at level 11, all the Weapon proficiencies at level 16, and then one other class feature at level 16. This would still leave the multiclasser down one class feature from a full fighter (to say nothing of all the fighter exploits). This *seems* fairly balanced to me: the wizard-fighter is viable but not as melee-potent as a the full fighter.

Still, I might be missing something. If other DMs see a consideration I'm overlooking, please share the specifics. Thanks!
#8
Scottomir
Sep 03, 2008 7:53:05 After playing for a few months now, I've learned that multiclassing can be very powerful! The sheer flexibility gained in swapping out less-useful class powers for much more useful powers from another class shouldn't be underestimated. Particularly for somebody dabbling in multiclassing, the rules and feats as written now strike me as balanced well enough.

Paragon multiclassing remains debatable, though. I no longer think that it is completely worthless in the rules as written, but certainly the kinds of revisions I proposed earlier in this thread months ago were MUCH too powerful. I now readily agree with those DMs who said "no way". In my campaign, I've been reworking a much more modest path for Paragon multiclassing aimed mostly at providing access to necessary class components to fully benefit from multiclass powers selected. Granted, this new approach is not as "minimal" as before (in that it requires a special entry for each class), but it is much better balanced.

******************************************************

PARAGON MULTICLASSING: Keep all multiclass feats as written, but add additional benefits for characters that choose paragon multiclassing instead of pursuing a paragon path.

• If you paragon multiclass as a cleric, at 11th level you gain the cleric class feature Healer’s Lore (PHB, p. 61).

• If you paragon multiclass as a fighter, at 11th level you can now make a melee basic attack as an immediate interrupt against an enemy marked by you that is adjacent to you and shifts or makes an attack that does not include you (like the Combat Challenge fighter class feature). In addition, you become proficient with your choice of two specific weapons, kinds of armor, or types of shield available to a fighter.

• If you paragon multiclass as a paladin, at 11th level you may become proficient with your choice of two specific weapons, kinds of armor, or types of shield available to a paladin.

• If you paragon multiclass as a ranger, at 11th level you gain your choice of either the ranger class feature Prime Shot (PHB, p. 104) or the ability to wield a one-handed weapon in your off hand as if it were an off-hand weapon (like the Two-Blade Fighting Style ranger class feature). In addition, you become proficient with your choice of one specific weapon or kind of armor available to a ranger.

• If you paragon multiclass as a rogue, at 11th level choose either Artful Dodger or Brutal Scoundrel. The choice you make provides bonuses to certain rogue powers, but you do not gain the other benefits of Rogue Tactics. In addition, you become proficient with your choice of one specific weapon or kind of armor available to a rogue.

• If you paragon multiclass as a warlock, at 11th level the pact you chose for the Pact Initiate feat (fey, infernal, star) now provides bonuses to certain warlock powers. Furthermore, instead of replacing one at-will power from your first class with an at-will power from your second class as normal for paragon multiclass characters (PHB, p. 209), at 11th level you may choose to upgrade your 1st-level attack power granted by the Pact Initiate feat so that it can be used at-will.

• If you paragon multiclass as a warlord, at 11th level choose either Inspiring Presence or Tactical Presence. The choice you make provides bonuses to certain warlord powers, but you do not gain the other benefits of Commanding Presence. In addition, you become proficient with your choice of one specific weapon, kind of armor, or type of shield available to a warlord.

• If you paragon multiclass as a wizard, instead of replacing one at-will power from your first class with an at-will power from your second class as normal for paragon multiclass characters (PHB, p. 209), at 11th level you may choose to upgrade your 1st-level wizard attack power granted by the Arcane Initiate feat so that it can be used at-will.

• Paragon multiclassing as a fighter, paladin, ranger, rogue, or warlord provides extra weapon or armor proficiencies. You cannot become proficient with heavy shields without first being proficient with light shields. You cannot become proficient with hide armor or chainmail without first being proficient with leather armor. You cannot become proficient with scale armor without first being proficient with chainmail. You cannot become proficient with plate armor without first being proficient with scale armor.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Scottomir Jun 21, 2008 12:22:47	As several threads across these boards have addressed, the 4E approach to multiclassing seems somewhat amiss. One major complaint is that the benefit of multiclassing is lop-sided: the initial feat provides valuable effects (especially at the cost of just 1 feat), but the Novice/Acolyte/Adept Power feats provide less return and Paragon Multiclassing the least of all. While I share concern about the front-loaded multiclassing benefits, ultimately I feel that the biggest problem is that Paragon Multiclassing isn't a fully viable option when compared to the Paths. Shouldn't both routes be attractive? That said, I would prefer to address this without a major rewrite. While some players may want hugely rewritten house rules, I suspect I'm not alone in wondering if there is a way to touch up multiclassing (particuarly Paragon Multiclassing) with minimal changes. Here's the best idea for "minimum change" I could come up with, and I'm not convinced how balanced it is. That's why I'd welcome critique and feedback. * KEEP ALL MULTICLASSING FEATS AS WRITTEN * If a character who possesses a class-specific multiclass feat, Novice Power, Acolyte Power, and Adept Power chooses Paragon Multiclassing (PHB, p. 209), at 11th level the character also gains the listed weapon proficiencies, armor proficiencies, and implements for the class that he/she multiclassed into. * If a character chooses Paragon Multiclassing into the Cleric or Wizard class, at 11th level he/she also gains Ritual Casting. * If a character chooses Paragon Multiclassing into the Warlock class, at 11th level he/she also gains the use of the class feature Warlock's Curse (PHB, p. 131) once per encounter. Furthermore, the pact chosen for the Pact Initiate feat now applies to the character's Warlock powers. * * * My thinking here is to give a character who goes all-in for Paragon Multiclassing slightly more of a semblance of the multiclassed class through their allowed armaments. Clearly, this favors the Fighter, Paladin, Warlord, and Ranger classes. Hence, the extra listed effects for multiclassing into Cleric, Wizard, or Warlock. Not sure if the Rogue needs an extra effect or what it should be...? Again, my interest is for a fix that is simple, avoids monkeying with the core mechanic, and doesn't require a full rule rewrite. I appreciate any feedback or advice folks can provide!
#2 comvor Jun 21, 2008 18:09:48	Personally even that wouldn't really make multiclassing worthwhile to me, unless I approach it from the class that doesn't get much proficiencies to the class that does. To make it worthwhile to go into any class I'd suggest class features rather then proficiencies. Two at 11th, probably the one that you got from the multiclass feat in the first place, and one or two depending on the class at 16th. Thus you make it work closer to a paragon path and make it wothwhile, as some class abilities require certain class features.
#3 Scottomir Jun 22, 2008 13:25:23	Personally even that wouldn't really make multiclassing worthwhile to me, unless I approach it from the class that doesn't get much proficiencies to the class that does. Yeah, I wondered about that. Still, I really would like a "minimal" solution that doesn't necessitate a major rewrite. Maybe WotC will realize that the multiclassing as-is doesn't satisfy and will release a "4E Complete Guide to Multiclassing" in the future. ;) But perhaps Comvor is right that any Paragon Multiclassing solution which doesn't include class features is always going to be unsatisfying. The idea of trying to mirror the progression of Paragon Paths is useful, because it could allow a class feature-based solution which doesn't require a major rewrite outside of the given core rules. So let me try to expand upon Comvor's idea... PARAGON MULTICLASSING: All feats remain as written. At 11th level, you gain the full benefits of the class feature from your initial class-specific multiclass feat and can use it just like a normal member of that class.* Furthermore, choose one of the following additional benefits of the class you multiclass into: gain the class's listed weapon proficiencies; gain the class's listed armor proficiencies; gain one other listed class feature. At 16th level, choose one more additional benefit of the class you multiclass into (weapon proficiencies, armor proficiencies, or class feature). ***** This approach doesn't seem to require much of a rewrite either and keeps within the core mechanic. Basically, it upgrades the initial multiclass feat benefit and eventually provides 2 more class features. So now a 16th level Paragon multiclasser ends up with 3 full class features from the chosen multiclass (including, if the player so desires, that class's weapon and/or armor proficiencies). This sounds like it could potentially be an easy, satisfying, and flexible solution. Of course, leave it to WotC to make sure one class always must be an outlier. In this case, it is the Fighter...since the Student of the Sword feat doesn't specifically grant Fighter Weapon Talent or Combat Challenge, but instead a weakened hybrid of both. Thus, the above solution would require one special asterisked note: * If you multiclass into the Fighter class, you gain the full benefit of your previously chosen Fighter Weapon Talent. However, the ability to mark a foe granted by your Student of the Sword feat still may be used only once per encounter (unless you acquire the Combat Challenge class feature).
#4 comvor Jun 22, 2008 15:32:26	Sounds good. Now that's a multiclass I'd be willing to try out. I'm going to try to get my DM to allow it when I game with him today.
#5 klaustheprince Jun 22, 2008 17:10:42	At 16th level, choose one more additional benefit of the class you multiclass into (weapon proficiencies, armor proficiencies, or class feature). That's much more convenient than taking Weapon Proficiency and Armor Proficiency feats. Sounds broken.
#6 comvor Jun 23, 2008 2:05:11	Yeah, I'm hoping that's the only reason my DM nixed it.
#7 Scottomir Jun 23, 2008 15:59:11	That's much more convenient than taking Weapon Proficiency and Armor Proficiency feats. Sounds broken. Hmm, I'd be curious to hear why other DMs feel it may be broken. By not providing a way for multiclassing to provide proficiencies, whole multiclass combinations become virtually worthless. For example, it isn't viable for a wizard to consider multiclassing as a fighter or ranger because they'd still be stuck only being proficient with cloth armor, staffs and daggers. And since 4E got rid of the "grouped" proficiency feats and now make you learn every piece of armor as an individual feat, a melee multiclasser is out of luck (considering that they already must spend 4 feats to become a Paragon Multiclasser, it would take like another 4-5 feats to gain all the weapon and armor proficiencies of a fighter or paladin). Using this approach, a wizard who multiclasses as a fighter (for example) could acquire all the fighter Armor proficiencies at level 11, all the Weapon proficiencies at level 16, and then one other class feature at level 16. This would still leave the multiclasser down one class feature from a full fighter (to say nothing of all the fighter exploits). This seems fairly balanced to me: the wizard-fighter is viable but not as melee-potent as a the full fighter. Still, I might be missing something. If other DMs see a consideration I'm overlooking, please share the specifics. Thanks!
#8 Scottomir Sep 03, 2008 7:53:05	After playing for a few months now, I've learned that multiclassing can be very powerful! The sheer flexibility gained in swapping out less-useful class powers for much more useful powers from another class shouldn't be underestimated. Particularly for somebody dabbling in multiclassing, the rules and feats as written now strike me as balanced well enough. Paragon multiclassing remains debatable, though. I no longer think that it is completely worthless in the rules as written, but certainly the kinds of revisions I proposed earlier in this thread months ago were MUCH too powerful. I now readily agree with those DMs who said "no way". In my campaign, I've been reworking a much more modest path for Paragon multiclassing aimed mostly at providing access to necessary class components to fully benefit from multiclass powers selected. Granted, this new approach is not as "minimal" as before (in that it requires a special entry for each class), but it is much better balanced. **************************************************** PARAGON MULTICLASSING**: Keep all multiclass feats as written, but add additional benefits for characters that choose paragon multiclassing instead of pursuing a paragon path. • If you paragon multiclass as a cleric, at 11th level you gain the cleric class feature Healer’s Lore (PHB, p. 61). • If you paragon multiclass as a fighter, at 11th level you can now make a melee basic attack as an immediate interrupt against an enemy marked by you that is adjacent to you and shifts or makes an attack that does not include you (like the Combat Challenge fighter class feature). In addition, you become proficient with your choice of two specific weapons, kinds of armor, or types of shield available to a fighter. • If you paragon multiclass as a paladin, at 11th level you may become proficient with your choice of two specific weapons, kinds of armor, or types of shield available to a paladin. • If you paragon multiclass as a ranger, at 11th level you gain your choice of either the ranger class feature Prime Shot (PHB, p. 104) or the ability to wield a one-handed weapon in your off hand as if it were an off-hand weapon (like the Two-Blade Fighting Style ranger class feature). In addition, you become proficient with your choice of one specific weapon or kind of armor available to a ranger. • If you paragon multiclass as a rogue, at 11th level choose either Artful Dodger or Brutal Scoundrel. The choice you make provides bonuses to certain rogue powers, but you do not gain the other benefits of Rogue Tactics. In addition, you become proficient with your choice of one specific weapon or kind of armor available to a rogue. • If you paragon multiclass as a warlock, at 11th level the pact you chose for the Pact Initiate feat (fey, infernal, star) now provides bonuses to certain warlock powers. Furthermore, instead of replacing one at-will power from your first class with an at-will power from your second class as normal for paragon multiclass characters (PHB, p. 209), at 11th level you may choose to upgrade your 1st-level attack power granted by the Pact Initiate feat so that it can be used at-will. • If you paragon multiclass as a warlord, at 11th level choose either Inspiring Presence or Tactical Presence. The choice you make provides bonuses to certain warlord powers, but you do not gain the other benefits of Commanding Presence. In addition, you become proficient with your choice of one specific weapon, kind of armor, or type of shield available to a warlord. • If you paragon multiclass as a wizard, instead of replacing one at-will power from your first class with an at-will power from your second class as normal for paragon multiclass characters (PHB, p. 209), at 11th level you may choose to upgrade your 1st-level wizard attack power granted by the Arcane Initiate feat so that it can be used at-will. • Paragon multiclassing as a fighter, paladin, ranger, rogue, or warlord provides extra weapon or armor proficiencies. You cannot become proficient with heavy shields without first being proficient with light shields. You cannot become proficient with hide armor or chainmail without first being proficient with leather armor. You cannot become proficient with scale armor without first being proficient with chainmail. You cannot become proficient with plate armor without first being proficient with scale armor.