Minion Overlord - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Minion Overlord

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
machmoth
Jul 15, 2008 17:36:06 What do you think would be a concerns with player-owned minions?

I'm thinking along the lines of the video game Overlord for the PC/XBox360, in which one strong baddy commands a horde of little magical goblin creatures in his onslaught of terror.

As a basic scenario, I'm thinking of a party of two players, each with 6 minions under their control. That's 12 total, or 3 groups of 4, for a rough equivalent to a party of 5. The minions fit basic monster roles such as artillery or soldier.

Off of the top of my head, I can think of:
* Minions die quickly, and aren't meant to exist from encounter to encounter. There needs to be a way to refill them between encounters.
* AoE. One breath could easily leave you facing a dragon alone. Is this the player's responsibility to plan around, or should there be a mechanic to save or replace minions in battle?
* Leader/Controller. Enemy controllers often have powers that often seem to compliment having minions. Aside from maybe the Warlord class, most players do not. Then again, shouldn't a minion master be a Warlord anyways? Perhaps a slightly adjusted, newer class, Overlord.
* Simplicity. Any concept added (example: salvage below) needs to flow quickly and with simplicity. There's already a lot of moving and rolling going on. Any additional rolls need to have obvious outcomes with as little math as possible.

A few concepts I'm kicking around:
* Minion types. Soldier minions might have better AC and a marking attack, where as lurker minions might have extra CA damage (+3 damage, not +1d6).
* Upgrading minions. Do you just summon minions your level, or do you pay to keep them at your status. Maybe they level like PCs along side you, and you manage resources to give them the equivalent of magic weapons and armor.
* Reserve minions. Do you always have enough minions to replace the fallen? Do you pay for replacements? Are they unholy beings that rise from your slain enemies or small golem-like creatures manufactured by the town you enslaved?

Slightly more thought out concept: Salvage.

Sometimes, minions live. It's unprecedented, but it could happen. The living may choose to salvage whatever bits and what-nots they can from their defeated enemies, or just as they stroll through town. When they find something, they'll usually keep it or pass it off into their collection of scrap. It may be useless junk to you, but anything shiny amuses a minion.

Abstracted as a communal pile of d6s, different roles can spend the salvage dice for different purposes, via minion-specific powers. Here's some random examples off the top of my head:

Salvage Powers

1 x : The minion still dies, but as the old saying goes, "you can't take it with you". Some other minion calls dibs on his boots. Place this Salvage Die back in the pile.
2 x - 4: The minion still dies. Don't worry, that's what he's supposed to do.
5 x - 6: The minion is not killed by this attack.
#2
wyld_mutation
Jul 15, 2008 18:23:24 I think it would be kinda interesting, not balanced but interesting.

However running a campaign with players based on Overlord would definitely be memorable.

I'd be interested at least. If the players actually don't have any combat abilities (or basic ones) I don't see why not. But I'm notorious for suggesting overpowered solutions anyway.
#3
yourunclebob
Jul 15, 2008 21:45:23
As a basic scenario, I'm thinking of a party of two players, each with 6 minions under their control. That's 12 total, or 3 groups of 4, for a rough equivalent to a party of 5.

12 minions provides a decent challenge for three player characters. 12 minions is NOT the power equivalent of three player characters. You can't just substitute 4 minions for a PC and expect it to be balanced.

If you don't expect it to be balanced, it sounds like a fun idea. You'll just have to play the balance issues by ear.
#4
xantoe
Jul 16, 2008 15:04:43 That was what I had in mind for a summoner actually but the idea was that you could only give them simple commands(attack, guard, move) but requires a standard action to deliver the command, so you don't end up outshining the rest of the party.
I thought the warlock would be the class to do it actually because it has teleporting and charming abilities; I expect in the future the warlock will be getting the minion guards as a daily power.
#5
jobbut
Jul 16, 2008 15:09:56 Great. I am definitly using this, my players just miniontized Splug and another goblin.
Why not have an ability for minions that deals with BEFORE combat

1 x : Steroid Soup; +2 on the Minions next attack roll
2 x -3: Barf Soup; Minion is weakened first round of combat
4 x -5:Rat Soup; Nothing happens, but there is seconds! Add a Salvage Die
6 x : Sugar Soup; +1 to Minion speed
#6
theonlyjett
Jul 16, 2008 19:25:44 I was actually thinking a couple ideas along the lines of this.

Kobold Ringleader

Basically, we have befriended a kobold who is now a PC (who hasn't these days). Instead of leveling him up, we were talking about letting him lead a group of kobolds right out of the monster manual. Basically, you just use the equivalent XP for buying a challenge for your level.

For instance, at 1st level, he's a 1st level PC class. Any I guess, though I suppose a leader role would make the best use of this, though our PC is not a leader role.

At 2nd level, instead of leveling the PC, just take a minion, for a total of 125 XP worth.
At 3rd, take another minion, or level up to 2nd level PC and keep only one minion. The only reason I think it could work is that you are gimping your PC in relation to the other PCs to get inferior allies. You would have to stay close in level to your group to even keep a decent enough attack bonus to be useful against the enemies you are facing at your equivalent level. Your thugs would also have to be up there, so you wouldn't really ever have too many of them, opting instead to only have one. Idk, for example, at 20th level, you have to only have one thug for both you and your "standard monster" thug to be 5 levels below your equivalent level. That makes both of you borderline insignificant compared to a single standard monster of that level. So maybe this is only going to even work like this with a couple minions. Personally, I'd rather not have minions at higher levels, but it seems there's really no choice.

Necromancer Overseer

This idea was just to basically make it take a standard action to summon an undead minion. Heroic tier PCs can summon 2, Paragon 3, and Epic 4, maybe. There's a lot here to mess it all up, though, too. For instance, if the PCs know they are getting in a fight, then, theoretically, the PC could just summon the max minions ahead of time and maybe get an advantage. You could just maybe use an encounter power to summon them all at once, maybe.

I really don't know what would work, these are just brainstorming ideas. Constructive criticism is welcome. (I already know it doesn't really work as is.)

I really can't wait till we see some kind of summoning class to see how it all balances out. I would really like to see a necromancer type with skeleton minions or a kobold ringleader as a actual PC option. Or at least have a solid example of how to effectively balance these types of ideas for our own campaigns.
#7
need_a_life
Jul 17, 2008 8:53:42 The Summoner

Hey, personally I'd like having a bunch of minions running around. It reminds me of taking Epic Leadership in my ol' 3.5 days. It was possible to have literally thousands upon thousands of insignificant people doing your bidding.

I typically used this as a way to found a city/an organisation/a country/colonise the wilderness/start trading guild.

Once I created a dungeon and placed the Head of Vecna at the end. (a recurring theme of the campaign had been us foiling upstart adventurers by luring them into certain death by use of clichéed plot hooks)
#8
danmarlok
Jul 17, 2008 16:20:24 Not sure if it falls in line with what you're doing or wanting but I offer this thread to possibly help get you some ideas.

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1060806

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 machmoth Jul 15, 2008 17:36:06	What do you think would be a concerns with player-owned minions? I'm thinking along the lines of the video game Overlord for the PC/XBox360, in which one strong baddy commands a horde of little magical goblin creatures in his onslaught of terror. As a basic scenario, I'm thinking of a party of two players, each with 6 minions under their control. That's 12 total, or 3 groups of 4, for a rough equivalent to a party of 5. The minions fit basic monster roles such as artillery or soldier. Off of the top of my head, I can think of: * Minions die quickly, and aren't meant to exist from encounter to encounter. There needs to be a way to refill them between encounters. * AoE. One breath could easily leave you facing a dragon alone. Is this the player's responsibility to plan around, or should there be a mechanic to save or replace minions in battle? * Leader/Controller. Enemy controllers often have powers that often seem to compliment having minions. Aside from maybe the Warlord class, most players do not. Then again, shouldn't a minion master be a Warlord anyways? Perhaps a slightly adjusted, newer class, Overlord. * Simplicity. Any concept added (example: salvage below) needs to flow quickly and with simplicity. There's already a lot of moving and rolling going on. Any additional rolls need to have obvious outcomes with as little math as possible. A few concepts I'm kicking around: * Minion types. Soldier minions might have better AC and a marking attack, where as lurker minions might have extra CA damage (+3 damage, not +1d6). * Upgrading minions. Do you just summon minions your level, or do you pay to keep them at your status. Maybe they level like PCs along side you, and you manage resources to give them the equivalent of magic weapons and armor. * Reserve minions. Do you always have enough minions to replace the fallen? Do you pay for replacements? Are they unholy beings that rise from your slain enemies or small golem-like creatures manufactured by the town you enslaved? Slightly more thought out concept: Salvage. Sometimes, minions live. It's unprecedented, but it could happen. The living may choose to salvage whatever bits and what-nots they can from their defeated enemies, or just as they stroll through town. When they find something, they'll usually keep it or pass it off into their collection of scrap. It may be useless junk to you, but anything shiny amuses a minion. Abstracted as a communal pile of d6s, different roles can spend the salvage dice for different purposes, via minion-specific powers. Here's some random examples off the top of my head: Salvage Powers 1 x : The minion still dies, but as the old saying goes, "you can't take it with you". Some other minion calls dibs on his boots. Place this Salvage Die back in the pile. 2 x - 4: The minion still dies. Don't worry, that's what he's supposed to do. 5 x - 6: The minion is not killed by this attack.
#2 wyld_mutation Jul 15, 2008 18:23:24	I think it would be kinda interesting, not balanced but interesting. However running a campaign with players based on Overlord would definitely be memorable. I'd be interested at least. If the players actually don't have any combat abilities (or basic ones) I don't see why not. But I'm notorious for suggesting overpowered solutions anyway.
#3 yourunclebob Jul 15, 2008 21:45:23	As a basic scenario, I'm thinking of a party of two players, each with 6 minions under their control. That's 12 total, or 3 groups of 4, for a rough equivalent to a party of 5. 12 minions provides a decent challenge for three player characters. 12 minions is NOT the power equivalent of three player characters. You can't just substitute 4 minions for a PC and expect it to be balanced. If you don't expect it to be balanced, it sounds like a fun idea. You'll just have to play the balance issues by ear.
#4 xantoe Jul 16, 2008 15:04:43	That was what I had in mind for a summoner actually but the idea was that you could only give them simple commands(attack, guard, move) but requires a standard action to deliver the command, so you don't end up outshining the rest of the party. I thought the warlock would be the class to do it actually because it has teleporting and charming abilities; I expect in the future the warlock will be getting the minion guards as a daily power.
#5 jobbut Jul 16, 2008 15:09:56	Great. I am definitly using this, my players just miniontized Splug and another goblin. Why not have an ability for minions that deals with BEFORE combat 1 x : Steroid Soup; +2 on the Minions next attack roll 2 x -3: Barf Soup; Minion is weakened first round of combat 4 x -5:Rat Soup; Nothing happens, but there is seconds! Add a Salvage Die 6 x : Sugar Soup; +1 to Minion speed
#6 theonlyjett Jul 16, 2008 19:25:44	I was actually thinking a couple ideas along the lines of this. Kobold Ringleader Basically, we have befriended a kobold who is now a PC (who hasn't these days). Instead of leveling him up, we were talking about letting him lead a group of kobolds right out of the monster manual. Basically, you just use the equivalent XP for buying a challenge for your level. For instance, at 1st level, he's a 1st level PC class. Any I guess, though I suppose a leader role would make the best use of this, though our PC is not a leader role. At 2nd level, instead of leveling the PC, just take a minion, for a total of 125 XP worth. At 3rd, take another minion, or level up to 2nd level PC and keep only one minion. The only reason I think it could work is that you are gimping your PC in relation to the other PCs to get inferior allies. You would have to stay close in level to your group to even keep a decent enough attack bonus to be useful against the enemies you are facing at your equivalent level. Your thugs would also have to be up there, so you wouldn't really ever have too many of them, opting instead to only have one. Idk, for example, at 20th level, you have to only have one thug for both you and your "standard monster" thug to be 5 levels below your equivalent level. That makes both of you borderline insignificant compared to a single standard monster of that level. So maybe this is only going to even work like this with a couple minions. Personally, I'd rather not have minions at higher levels, but it seems there's really no choice. Necromancer Overseer This idea was just to basically make it take a standard action to summon an undead minion. Heroic tier PCs can summon 2, Paragon 3, and Epic 4, maybe. There's a lot here to mess it all up, though, too. For instance, if the PCs know they are getting in a fight, then, theoretically, the PC could just summon the max minions ahead of time and maybe get an advantage. You could just maybe use an encounter power to summon them all at once, maybe. I really don't know what would work, these are just brainstorming ideas. Constructive criticism is welcome. (I already know it doesn't really work as is.) I really can't wait till we see some kind of summoning class to see how it all balances out. I would really like to see a necromancer type with skeleton minions or a kobold ringleader as a actual PC option. Or at least have a solid example of how to effectively balance these types of ideas for our own campaigns.
#7 need_a_life Jul 17, 2008 8:53:42	The Summoner Hey, personally I'd like having a bunch of minions running around. It reminds me of taking Epic Leadership in my ol' 3.5 days. It was possible to have literally thousands upon thousands of insignificant people doing your bidding. I typically used this as a way to found a city/an organisation/a country/colonise the wilderness/start trading guild. Once I created a dungeon and placed the Head of Vecna at the end. (a recurring theme of the campaign had been us foiling upstart adventurers by luring them into certain death by use of clichéed plot hooks)
#8 danmarlok Jul 17, 2008 16:20:24	Not sure if it falls in line with what you're doing or wanting but I offer this thread to possibly help get you some ideas. http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1060806