Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Nyarlathotep Feb 09, 2009 19:44:02	For an upcoming story arc in my campaign, I intend to have the group go up against a marauding band of Dragonborn mercenaries, a large band. I want to make some sort of dragonborn minion type to fill out the ranks, and I have them MOStly made up, except for one little problem, breath weapons. Breath weapons strike me as an iconic power for Dragonborn, and it really seem like they should have them. The problem is that if I use minons en masse, like I like to do, even if I have the breath weapon do a small amount of damage (I'm thinking 7th level minions doing maybe 4 points), it could add up quickly and wear the whole party down a lot, when multiplied by 8-10 Dragonborn. That seems a bit excessive for minions. IN fact, going through the MM, I haven't found any minions that do any sort of area attacks, and I wonder if the designers avoided that on purpose. So my question boils down to this, should I just go ahead and give my Dragonborn minions a breath attack, or just handwave it away (maybe on my world, not all dragonborn have a breath weapon)? Any thoughts?
#2 Janx_14 Feb 09, 2009 19:57:35	Perhaps give a limited number of them access to the ability. It gets the signature off without looking obessive. Also, if they are alot of melee minions, they not going to be able to use it if they want to flank, or they going to instant-kill their own 'men'.
#3 salla Feb 09, 2009 20:07:08	I'd say give it to 'em, but remember that any minion that gets caught in another minion's breath attack is likely to die. Since minions tend to swarm, the odds that you'll get to fire off more than one or two (unless these are some really well-organized troops) is slim at best.
#4 Nyarlathotep Feb 09, 2009 21:10:11	Yeah, I thought about the problem of them nuking their own guys and I was thinking thatt they would try to arrange themselves to avoid just that problem. In short, they are really well organized troops. Basically having them try to form a horseshoe shape around the PCs and blasting (just once per encounter, of course) then acting as flankers for some skirmishers coming around the rear. I suppose I could have them do something a bit less tactical, like just a straight line, or having them form an unruly mob, which would make it a bit less deadly, but the effect I am going for here is "Well trained and disciplined troops led by an excellent leader" and so it seems I should pull out all the stops if I am doing that. So here are my minions, if anyone wants to comment on them (too deadly, too easy, whatever) please do so. I basically took the Human Lackey Minions and modified them a bit. Dragonborn Mercenary Troopers (Level 7 minion) Initiative +2 Senses Perception +5 HP 1; a missed attack never damages a minion. AC 20; Fortitude 18, Reflex 13, Will 15 Speed 6 Spear (standard; at-will) - Weapon +12 vs. AC; 6 damage. Dragon Breath (Minor; Encounter) - Close Burst 1 +10 vs. Refex; 4 Poison Damage Alignment Unaligned Languages Common, Draconic Str 18 (+7) Dex 8 (+2) Wis 12 (+4) Con 14 (+5) Int 10 (+3) Cha 13 (+4) Equipment leather armor, Spear
#5 andinel Feb 09, 2009 21:51:19	Why is their breath weapon a close burst 1? Shouldn't it be a close blast 3?
#6 Igfig Feb 09, 2009 22:12:18	Look at it like this, perhaps. The dragonborn, in their wars with Bael Turath, must have devised a set of tactics to make the best use of their breath weapons. Since each soldier can only breathe energy once per battle, they would have been careful to save their breath for whenever it would be most useful and hit the most enemies. Of course, this being an indiscriminate area attack, they would also want to be sure that they didn't hit any of their allies. This suggests that the best time to use a breath weapon is when all your allies are behind you and all your enemies are close-packed in front of you--in other words, at the very beginning of the fight. I imagine a phalanx of dragonborn breaking a tiefling charge with a massive wall of energy, or they themselves charging forward, shattering enemy lines with their wrathful assault. Of course, not everybody would breathe in the first round; the soldiers in back would be afraid of hitting their allies. They would save their breath for later: when the fray has been joined and the two sides are hard-pressed, they can step in to cover a retreat. make some breathing-space, or press the advantage. That was a bit more detail than I meant to include, but the point is this: dragonborn rank-and file probably unleash their breath in groups. If you want the minions to breathe energy, let them make a combined attack. Something like: [C] Dragon Breath (Standard, encounter) o Acid Three dragonborn minions adjacent to each other and acting on the same initiative count can use their standard actions to unleash a combined wave of energy. Make one attack roll: Close Blast 3 (the origin must be adjacent to one minion); +10 vs. Reflex; 7 acid damage. I got the idea from the Lich Vestige. EDIT: Alternatively, a simpler fix would be to just leave the power as-is but reduce the area to a blast 1. Only one enemy is hit at a time, so there's no problem.
#7 Novacat Feb 09, 2009 22:36:31	[C] Dragon Breath (Standard, encounter) o Acid Three dragonborn minions adjacent to each other and acting on the same initiative count can use their standard actions to unleash a combined wave of energy. Make one attack roll: Close Blast 3 (the origin must be adjacent to one minion); +10 vs. Reflex; 7 acid damage. Just as an outside opinion from someone who really likes dragonborn... this seems to be a really good way to handle it. It would be a lot of damage for a single minion, but not excessive for a group of 3.
#8 Nyarlathotep Feb 09, 2009 23:00:05	Why is their breath weapon a close burst 1? Shouldn't it be a close blast 3? I figured shrinking it would mean each one would likely get only 2-3 PCs each (unless the party clumped up in a realy silly manner, in which case they deserve what they get). Though I did mean close blast, not burst (still get those two confused)
#9 Nyarlathotep Feb 09, 2009 23:01:45	Look at it like this, perhaps. The dragonborn, in their wars with Bael Turath, must have devised a set of tactics to make the best use of their breath weapons. Since each soldier can only breathe energy once per battle, they would have been careful to save their breath for whenever it would be most useful and hit the most enemies. Of course, this being an indiscriminate area attack, they would also want to be sure that they didn't hit any of their allies. This suggests that the best time to use a breath weapon is when all your allies are behind you and all your enemies are close-packed in front of you--in other words, at the very beginning of the fight. I imagine a phalanx of dragonborn breaking a tiefling charge with a massive wall of energy, or they themselves charging forward, shattering enemy lines with their wrathful assault. Of course, not everybody would breathe in the first round; the soldiers in back would be afraid of hitting their allies. They would save their breath for later: when the fray has been joined and the two sides are hard-pressed, they can step in to cover a retreat. make some breathing-space, or press the advantage. That was a bit more detail than I meant to include, but the point is this: dragonborn rank-and file probably unleash their breath in groups. If you want the minions to breathe energy, let them make a combined attack. Something like: [C] Dragon Breath (Standard, encounter) o Acid Three dragonborn minions adjacent to each other and acting on the same initiative count can use their standard actions to unleash a combined wave of energy. Make one attack roll: Close Blast 3 (the origin must be adjacent to one minion); +10 vs. Reflex; 7 acid damage. I got the idea from the Lich Vestige. EDIT: Alternatively, a simpler fix would be to just leave the power as-is but reduce the area to a blast 1. Only one enemy is hit at a time, so there's no problem. Ooooooh, I like it. I think I am going to go with that.
#10 Neutronium_Dragon Feb 10, 2009 8:52:02	I would actually suggest a different approach: Give them a "close blast 1" attack that's about as powerful as their regular one, trading off some damage for the fact that it attacks reflex. True, this isn't as large as the 'standard' one, but they're minions; this way they have a minion-like version of it. As an even more abstract alternative, give them 1 point of energy damage as part of their basic attack; this represents their breath weapon being used along with their physical one.
#11 danmarlok Feb 11, 2009 8:20:41	While it adds more dice rolls, what about making their breath weapon an encounter + recharge 6 (5-6?) that starts off uncharged, so only the minions who last a few rounds get 'heated up' enough from battle rage to be able to fire off their breath weapon and only get to do it once?
#12 Novacat Feb 11, 2009 21:46:33	While it adds more dice rolls, what about making their breath weapon an encounter + recharge 6 (5-6?) that starts off uncharged, so only the minions who last a few rounds get 'heated up' enough from battle rage to be able to fire off their breath weapon and only get to do it once? The point of minions having only 1 hit point is so that you don't have to keep track of anything on any individual minions. Giving them an encounter power would defeat that purpose, and would become extremely cumbersome to run if more than just a handful of said minions were present.
#13 fattieflingwizard Feb 12, 2009 14:02:52	I'd give the dragonborn as a whole a recharge breath weapon (say 5+) with damage in the 5hp range. Roll the recharge at the beginning of the round. A single dragonborn (your choice) can use it that round. In a 5 round fight they might get off 2-3 such attacks (enough to keep the dragonborn flavor but not outright murderous or too complicated to keep track of). You could then count this attack as increasing the encounter xp as per 4 minions or 1 standard monster (or whatever looks right).
#14 Igfig Feb 14, 2009 19:16:16	Ooooooh, I like it. I think I am going to go with that. Glad to be of help. Also, just now I noticed something interesting in the Draconomicon: there's a lvl 28 minion called Blade of the Pharaoh that has a close burst (encounter) attack. It does less damage than the basic attack, but here's the clever thing: if a character is hit by multiple instances of the attack in a single round, each attack has a greater effect than the last one. The Blade of the Pharaoh causes save-ends conditions on the later attacks, but you can just make it damage instead. Perhaps each hit deals one more damage than the previous hit? Or just count how many of the blasts each target is in each round, make a single attack roll for each target, and deal (n^2) damage per hit? (n= number of blasts affecting target; probably shouldn't be more than 3.) I don't know if this is a better idea, but it's an idea nonetheless.
#15 tylara67 Feb 15, 2009 9:59:19	Can someone explain to me the difference between "close blast 1" and "melee 1" when not attacking swarms?
#16 half_dragon_infernal Feb 15, 2009 10:04:22	Concealment. Thats all I can think of right now.
#17 burritoalpastor Feb 16, 2009 21:54:46	Some effects are dependent on the attack type. I saw something recently that had some effect in reaction to a melee attack; a close burst 1 wouldn't trigger that. As far as minions with AoEs, I actually had an idea I wanted to explore - minions with combined attacks. Say it's some kind of imp that can summon great explosions. It'd work something like this - Infernal Flame (standard; at-will) * Fire Area burst 1 within 10; +5 vs. Reflex; 4 damage. If two or more Flamesummoner Imps are acting together, they can combine their efforts to summon one devastatingly powerful blast. Any Flamesummoner Imp can participate as a Standard Action, as long as he is within two squares of another Flamesummoner Imp participating in the same Infernal Flame summoning. If multiple Flamesummoner Imps are summoning a single Infernal Flame, the flame instead does 4 damage for every participating Flamesummoner Imp, and is a burst of size equal to half the number of participating Flamesummoner Imps. For example, if nine Flamesummoner Imps combined their powers for a single attack, it would be Area Burst 4 within 10, +5 vs. Reflex, 36 damage. Coordinated Attack: All allied Flamesummoner Imps in an encounter act simultaneously and on the same initiative count. Roll initiative once for the entire group; any Flamesummoner Imps who subsequently join the fight will act on the same initiative, unless there are no remaining Flamesummoner Imps for them to join. Theoretically, if fighting a single target, they do no more damage than they would if they had each attacked individually; their attack chances are "all in one basket" instead of being determined 4 damage at a time. However, the diameter of the blast is roughly equal to the number of imps attacking at any given time, so there's still a very real incentive for the PCs to eliminate them or at least thin their numbers ASAP. (In terms of the number of squares they can target, their increase in power is exponential.) The Flamesummoner Imps in question would also have to be immune to fire, of course, or else they could easily fry themselves; an "all enemies within" clause could be added, but that doesn't feel strictly appropriate for a huge ball of fire.