I like when a player uses an attack power against a minion, hits, and the minion is dead.
I don't like when a player uses some power that deals marginal damage without an attack roll to kill minions in large numbers.
Exapmle: Fireball - good, greenflame blade with +1 strength mod - bad.
So, maybe some of you feel the same and already made some houserule to solve the problem?
I like minions. I like using them in combat, so that players feel their characters really heroic while chopping (or blasting) through a horde of enemies. But there is one problem.
I like when a player uses an attack power against a minion, hits, and the minion is dead.
I don't like when a player uses some power that deals marginal damage without an attack roll to kill minions in large numbers.
Exapmle: Fireball - good, greenflame blade with +1 strength mod - bad.
So, maybe some of you feel the same and already made some houserule to solve the problem?
I know I haven't. There's a pile of stuff in the game that's only really at all useful because it automatically drops minions; I wouldn't want to make such a big shift to the game's balance (and obsolete so many options) to suit some small part of my tastes.
I know I haven't. There's a pile of stuff in the game that's only really at all useful because it automatically drops minions; I wouldn't want to make such a big shift to the game's balance (and obsolete so many options) to suit some small part of my tastes.
This.
Minions already have immunity to damage-on-miss, so at least you have to hit. Giving minions immunity to auto-damage effects just wouldn't work out. Stinking Cloud should kill them; why not Greenflame Blade? You need to throw a large number of minions at people to make them effective, and they're supposed to die in droves. They're effectively screening your normal-strength monsters; either drawing player actions (which equal damage) away, or swarming if your players focus on the big guns. They're quite dangerous enough when used this way - let your players deal with them normally.
Throw normal monsters together with the minions but they all look like at a first glance;
Example: two normal goblins inside the crowd of 10 goblin minions.
They come out of the fireball bruised or so.
Hmm..i liked it..This will make things more interesting *takes notes*
I just had a idea.
Throw normal monsters together with the minions but they all look like at a first glance;
Example: two normal goblins inside the crowd of 10 goblin minions.
They come out of the fireball bruised or so.
Hmm..i liked it..This will make things more interesting *takes notes*
Fun until someone at low level burns their only daily on a minion, wasting a huge chunk of their resources. Then it's just frustrating.
Don't do this to your players.
Fun until someone at low level burns their only daily on a minion, wasting a huge chunk of their resources. Then it's just frustrating.
WHAT???
Where exactly in the rules is the DM advised to identify monsters to players even by type, let alone by role? I don't tell my group which of their enemies are minons and which are not. Never have. I do, however, reveal in the course of battle whether the particular opponent with which they are presently engaged looks tougher or more effective, a fact that the battle itself will soon bear out anyway.
But when a horde of enemy kobolds comes racing toward them? Well... it's just a horde of angry, small, bipedal lizard-like creatures! You won't hear me say, "12 koblds are running toward you, seven of which are just minions".
WHAT???
Simma down :P We're just having a conversation here.
You won't hear me say, "12 koblds are running toward you, seven of which are just minions".
Well, no, I should hope not. That's bland, boring, and unnecessary.
I don't tell my group which of their enemies are minons and which are not. Never have.
Well, definitely play the game however you and your players have fun with it, but.
But when a horde of enemy kobolds comes racing toward them? Well... it's just a horde of angry, small, bipedal lizard-like creatures!
I have to disagree with this sentiment. In the real world, if I accidentally walk into a conference room, I can immediately tell who the managers are and who the drones are, even if I don't know who they are. The higher ups are better dressed, have their black berries out, and will look right at me, speak first etc. The drones will be scribbling notes, not be as well dressed, probably younger, and definitely will defer to the bosses to decide how to respond. I can figure this out in a few seconds without trying.
I wouldn't say "these are minions" but in many (most?) cases the narrative really should reflect the fact that minions are nobodies who wouldn't have expensive equipment, no responsibility, and no capability of handling the players. The solos, elites, etc, should be wearing very good equipment, should be taking initiative and generally acting like they're awesome, because they are (even a level 1 is more powerful than most normal people).
The players do this for a living, IMO they should at least have a chance to figure it out (perception? streetwise? religion? arcana? dungeoneering? whatever is appropriate at the time) if it's not immediately obvious from the narrative.
I don't think the PHB addresses whether you have to tell players which monsters are minions; however, I strongly recommend it. First of all, it's frustrating enough missing on your dailies (unless you're a fighter) and watching them get completely wasted; you don't need more ways to completely fail to be awesome.
Also, minions are as much a dramatic tool as they are a mechanical one. They're the moment where your fighter gets to step forward, size up the scurvy ruffians, and say, "Well, gentlemen, it seems I outnumber you one to five." They're where Leonidas gets to look down at the half-assed army that theoretically outnumbers his three hundred spartans and say, "No - I brought more soldiers." It should be clear at a glance that minions are just not in the same league as the players.
I don't think the PHB addresses whether you have to tell players which monsters are minions; however, I strongly recommend it. First of all, it's frustrating enough missing on your dailies (unless you're a fighter) and watching them get completely wasted; you don't need more ways to completely fail to be awesome.
Also, minions are as much a dramatic tool as they are a mechanical one. They're the moment where your fighter gets to step forward, size up the scurvy ruffians, and say, "Well, gentlemen, it seems I outnumber you one to five." They're where Leonidas gets to look down at the half-assed army that theoretically outnumbers his three hundred spartans and say, "No - I brought more soldiers." It should be clear at a glance that minions are just not in the same league as the players.
I don't think it should always be immediately obvious, nor do I tell my players which monsters are minions (actually, they're still new to 4e and I'm not even sure that they know what minions are). They might be able to figure it out from the narrative, but there are times when it pays to blend into the crowd, so maybe it takes a little more work, like observing their actions and what powers they use. In any case, a player that immediately starts unloading dailies without identifying the best targets first deserves to waste them. That said, it shouldn't be impossible to distinguish targets either, since that takes control away from the player and makes his powers hinge on a coin toss (yes I know we roll dice, but...).
WHAT???
Where exactly in the rules is the DM advised to identify monsters to players even by type, let alone by role? I don't tell my group which of their enemies are minons and which are not. Never have. I do, however, reveal in the course of battle whether the particular opponent with which they are presently engaged looks tougher or more effective, a fact that the battle itself will soon bear out anyway.
But when a horde of enemy kobolds comes racing toward them? Well... it's just a horde of angry, small, bipedal lizard-like creatures! You won't hear me say, "12 koblds are running toward you, seven of which are just minions".
I actually mark on the counters which creatures are minions and which aren't. My overall GMing style has the playmat and table almost entirely devoted to mechanics, while I put as much of my narrative time into fluff as the game allows.
Thus, the players have the information they need - things that, in most cases, their characters would know nigh-instinctively - spelled out for them in simple mechanical terms in front of them, while I'm not breaking up the descriptions of awesome things with little mechanical notes. The way that I do it, generally, is that minions (being 1/4 of a regular monster) roll initiative and usually move in teams of 4, so while a normal monster or elite will have just a letter for its personal designation (That's Bulette A), minions have a squad letter and individual number (That's Giant Rat B1). If there's only one of a given minion type, I mark an M on the counter after its personal designation letter (Giant Rat AM).
I actually mark on the counters which creatures are minions and which aren't.
I don't even tell them what kind of creature it is. I just describe it. A dungeoneering or nature check, however, may sometimes reveal more specifics.
Curious. If the party meets a thief, do you put a marker on the board marked "thief"? Kinda defeats the point, don't ya think?
...if I accidentally walk into a conference room, I can immediately tell who the managers are and who the drones are...
So can I.
The minions invariably end up in management.
Certainly sometimes, an inexperienced and idiotic aristocrat is put in charge of the batalion, and may be wearing the most valuable armor and be carrying the best weapons, while Napoleon is left a corporal and leading the charge. Heros and minions can be found at all ranks but I do agree that, generally, even Kobolds employ a meritocracy.
I wouldn't say "these are minions" but in many (most?) cases the narrative really should reflect the fact that minions are nobodies who wouldn't have expensive equipment, no responsibility, and no capability of handling the players.
Yes. I do give those cues as well, as it becomes reasonable to do so, based on each player character's general perceptive ability and familiarity with the creature type and its culture. I don't roll for it. Just use my best judgement. Most fights where a hoard of enemies are encountered however do begin with those enemies being described without specificity.
The solos, elites, etc, should be wearing very good equipment, should be taking initiative and generally acting like they're awesome, because they are (even a level 1 is more powerful than most normal people).
And in normal circumstances, that is a cue players can rely on to guess which opponents may lack adequate skill and fighting spirit. But there are exceptions. Furthermore, when minions of alien type are encountered, it may not be obvious at all which are inferior specimens.
I have a plan to throw some high level vampire spawn at my party in the near future. All of the spawn are minons but the group has no experience with vampires. I aim to scare the crap out of them until they finally score some hits. I'm hoping the effect is dangerous and powerful monsters that are ultimately felled by a single hit. Very monster-movie-esque I think.
The players do this for a living, IMO they should at least have a chance to figure it out (perception? streetwise? religion? arcana? dungeoneering? whatever is appropriate at the time) if it's not immediately obvious from the narrative.
Yes. Absolutely agree with you. Outside of perception, I do in fact roll for all of the others skill checks -- if the player reminds me to do so.
It's reasonable that player-characters may know something of the creatures they are encountering, even for the first time.I don't even tell them what kind of creature it is. I just describe it. A dungeoneering or nature check, however, may sometimes reveal more specifics.
Curious. If the party meets a thief, do you put a marker on the board marked "thief"? Kinda defeats the point, don't ya think?
Are they meeting the thief in a roleplaying scenario? If so, there's no minis at all - the grid is for combat, not for shooting the breeze.
If they're fighting already, chances are that either (a) they already know it's a thief, or (b) them knowing or not knowing is relatively irrelevant. Either way, I'll mark down its name in some way... "Alexander," "Human Brigand," "Eladrin Fey Ninja Man."
Something like that.
One options, for when you want to make the players more sneaky, is that minions are only minions when they don't know about the PCs (flatfooted, surprise round, hide and snipe, etc.), but once they make the spot check or the PCs fail their Hide, they become standard monsters or worse.
I like that idea. It helps with the type of scenario when PCs are trying to sneak into a castle and take out the guards quietly before they sound the alarm. I wouldn't apply to solos or elites, but otherwise it seems to be a pretty elegant solution.
Exapmle: Fireball - good, greenflame blade with +1 strength mod - bad.
So, maybe some of you feel the same and already made some houserule to solve the problem?
banning greenflame blade?
the problem you have is with a specific item (or are you having trouble that a cloud of daggers kills a minion?)
banning greenflame blade?
the problem you have is with a specific item (or are you having trouble that a cloud of daggers kills a minion?)
Actually I'm having a problem with powers that encourage players to think "okay, I'll take STR 12, so my greenflame blade will deal 1 damage - just enough to kill minions"
a bit cheesy for my taste
I'd like to thank Veggiesama for the link. After reading all the suggestions there I'm leaning towards this houserule:
1. Minions do not have hit points.
2. Whenever an attack that deals damage hits a minion, it is killed.
3. A missed attack never damages a minion.
4. Whenever a minion is damaged by any other source, it is bloodied.
5. Whenever a bloodied minion is damaged, it is killed.
Actually I'm having a problem with powers that encourage players to think "okay, I'll take STR 12, so my greenflame blade will deal 1 damage - just enough to kill minions"
so ... if I understand you correctly ... you have no problem with ... lets say... rod of reaving? (warlocks curse deals damage equal to enchantment bonus. since curse does not require an attack, a rod of reaving in RAW thus the ability warlocks curse kills minions. ) since it is independant of stats, a warlock buying a rod of reaving, is buying a minion killer. its not min-maxing, its not cheese, its just game mechanics (just like an ice power is more efficient against fire creatures, or a radiant power is more efficient against undead).
How about giving minions resist all X, where X is (their level/5, rounded down)? This even stops epic warlocks from just walking around with a +1 rod of reaving, WIS 12 wizards schreding minions with cload of daggers, and STR12 green bladers.
Plus it requires less book keeping (when you have 20 minions, which ones are bloodied?)
so ... if I understand you correctly ... you have no problem with ... lets say... rod of reaving?
...
How about giving minions resist all X, where X is (their level/5, rounded down)?
...
Plus it requires less book keeping (when you have 20 minions, which ones are bloodied?)
Yeah, the rod you mention is also a problem. Giving resist, as well as granting minions a save to avoid being killed were also options that some people suggested. I personally like the save idea and this "bloodied minion" idea more than giving resist. Main reason is that I definitely want an attack that hit to kill a minion regardless of the amount of damage.
And keeping track of which minion is bloodied is fine - I do it for regular monsters anyway
WHAT???
Where exactly in the rules is the DM advised to identify monsters to players even by type, let alone by role? I don't tell my group which of their enemies are minons and which are not. Never have. I do, however, reveal in the course of battle whether the particular opponent with which they are presently engaged looks tougher or more effective, a fact that the battle itself will soon bear out anyway.
But when a horde of enemy kobolds comes racing toward them? Well... it's just a horde of angry, small, bipedal lizard-like creatures! You won't hear me say, "12 koblds are running toward you, seven of which are just minions".
PHB pg. 180 Monster Knowledge. Making the basic check yields Name, Type and Keywords.
I definitely want an attack that hit to kill a minion regardless of the amount of damage
I don't think I get it, let me get this straight ... so a wizard making an oppertunity attack with his orb (as improvized weapon) ... that kills a minion, but not when he casts a killer spell that has a effect: ongoing 30 fire damage ...
might I ask ... why?
(my train of thought is as follows: I'm thinking that you continuously throw minions against the party, and now annoyed that they have anti-minion counter-measures ...
In this case, my advice would be to stop using minions so frequently. if you continously use undead, don't compain the party start using radiant powers. if you continously use fire creatures, don't compain the party start using ice weapons. )
As DM I use minions about every encounter: about 4 to 6 of them for a normal encounter. my warlock doesn't have a reaving rod, he's focused on the artillery, the mellee guy? same deal. barbarian? coudn't care less. minions are left to the area spell casters (in my case, cleric with area damage (has a low level encounter burst: low damage (requires attack roll - but he's an elf), and also boosts party members) . A reaving rod used on a minion saves my soldier from a curse. a greenblade attack? thats an attack waisted on a minion, instead of the skirmisher scoring burst from a wizard? that means my brute isn't slowed.
IMO, Minions aren't supposed to be easy survivable, they are the guys that Xena kills 5 of with a single throw of her shakram ...
When a wizard throws a 'effect: ongoing 30'-napalm bomb. minions are the guys getting blown away. period.
How about giving minions resist all X, where X is (their level/5, rounded down)?
Hey! Not a bad idea!
PHB pg. 180 Monster Knowledge. Making the basic check yields Name, Type and Keywords.
Hey! I didn't know that. I've just been winging it. Thank you. Sincerely.
I feel a little stupid -- but a little bit smarter now.
Hey! Not a bad idea!
I also think reusable autodamage (via Flaming Sphere or Armor of Agathys) makes minions too stupid to use. Granted, it may just be my party, but nevertheless I thought the whole POINT of minions is they go down when hit, not that they go down automatically round after round without any effort from the players. Once the sphere or armor goes up, 2-4 minions are automatically dead every round after that, pretty much an auto-win for the party if I'm using more than 4 minions for the encounter (which, again, defeats the whole point of minions, since they're SUPPOSED to be for swarms...a swarm of 4?).
But resist 0, up to resist 1 at level 6, is too low a resistance to make any difference. I'll have to look in the book, but I don't think there are any autodamage effects that deal only 1 point of damage with any sort of reliability.
But certainly I'm interested in anything that would work.
Autodamage effects will still be able to kill them, but won't always kill them. It creates extra rolls, slowing down combat, but it doesn't add any book keeping.
Hey! I didn't know that. I've just been winging it. Thank you. Sincerely.
I feel a little stupid -- but a little bit smarter now.
Not stupid at all. I'm just surprised no one pointed it out before I did. Always good for a munchkin (me) to know which skills have direct combat applications ;)
I also think reusable autodamage (via Flaming Sphere or Armor of Agathys) makes minions too stupid to use. Granted, it may just be my party, but nevertheless I thought the whole POINT of minions is they go down when hit, not that they go down automatically round after round without any effort from the players. Once the sphere or armor goes up, 2-4 minions are automatically dead every round after that, pretty much an auto-win for the party if I'm using more than 4 minions for the encounter (which, again, defeats the whole point of minions, since they're SUPPOSED to be for swarms...a swarm of 4?).
IIRC the point of minions is that players put time/resources in them (every attack on a minion is one less attack on the real dangers - the brute or the artellery).
The example you give (Flaming Sphere), that a daily power. the fact that your player waists such a valiable resource just to kill a couple of minions, means they did their job. (as evil DM, I would rather have my player use a flaming sphere on a minion, then lets say, sleep on the brute).
Plus, I think you're overreacting when you say Flaming sphere kills 2-4 minions per round. minions have intelligence scores, so they will try and avoid the the ball (like, not ending adjecent to it, and not standing in groups).
But resist 0, up to resist 1 at level 6, is too low a resistance to make any difference. I'll have to look in the book, but I don't think there are any autodamage effects that deal only 1 point of damage with any sort of reliability.
But certainly I'm interested in anything that would work.
Again, I disagree:
to quote the situation: the OP wanted a fix for this situation: "okay, I'll take STR 12, so my greenflame blade will deal 1 damage - just enough to kill minions"
simelar situations are:
- an epic warlock running around with a rod of reaving +1 (which makes his curse deal 1 damage);
- or a WIS 12 wizard using cloud of daggers
with the resist all (lvl/5), powers that auto-kill minions still work, if properly invested in them:
- at lvl 3, a warlock can auto-kill a minion with a +1 rod of reaving. (as the item was probably intended to do)
- an epic warlock can't auto-kill them just because he's holding a +1 rod of reaving in his off hand, but he can however still use a +6 rod of reaving to auto kill them.
- a greenflame blade wielder needs to keep boosting his strength*
- a cloud of daggers wizard needs to keep boosting his wisdom*
*: heck, he needs a +1 modifier per 5 levels, meaning that, if he starts with 12 STR/WIS, and keep boosting that stat, minions will only be effected during level 1-4, 8-9 and 14 (if they don't go demigod).
The biggest problem with removing the auto-kill rule is not to find a rule, but to rebalance powers and items. by removing the auto-kill rule, items such as the rod of reaving become very overpriced/nearly useless.
The idea of handing them a save that Dark Stryke proposed actually isn't a bad idea either. I would think something like "if the damage dealt to a minion doesn't exceed its level, it gets a save to stay alive."
IIRC the point of minions is that players put time/resources in them (every attack on a minion is one less attack on the real dangers - the brute or the artellery).
The example you give (Flaming Sphere), that a daily power. the fact that your player waists such a valiable resource just to kill a couple of minions, means they did their job. (as evil DM, I would rather have my player use a flaming sphere on a minion, then lets say, sleep on the brute).
Plus, I think you're overreacting when you say Flaming sphere kills 2-4 minions per round. minions have intelligence scores, so they will try and avoid the the ball (like, not ending adjecent to it, and not standing in groups).
Read that power more carefully. It doesn't just destroy minions, round after round, for free, it ALSO hurts the 'real' bad guys, too. Once the minions are mopped up with all the autodamage, the sphere is still there to deal damage to the other monsters.
Not ending adjacent is irrelevant...the mage simply moves the ball (or walks up to them, with Armor), and it's autodamage at the beginning of the monsters' turn. Doesn't drain away an attack, and no 'intelligence' on the minions part can do much about it.
(I don't have the PHB near, but that's how the Armor works. If Sphere doesn't, just put it near the fighter, and the fighter near the minions, to accomplish the same effect).
If Burniing Sphere/Armor just killed minions round after round for free, yeah, minions might make sense, since it's burning a resource. But those powers are still perfectly good against the 'real' monsters, too.
Again, I disagree:
to quote the situation: the OP wanted a fix for this situation: "okay, I'll take STR 12, so my greenflame blade will deal 1 damage - just enough to kill minions"
simelar situations are:
- an epic warlock running around with a rod of reaving +1 (which makes his curse deal 1 damage);
- or a WIS 12 wizard using cloud of daggers
Fair enough, but now basically you're just wanting a nerf against 1 point of damage effects. Granted, it helps a little, but it won't take much in the way of levels or items to get around that issue in any event.
The biggest problem with removing the auto-kill rule is not to find a rule, but to rebalance powers and items. by removing the auto-kill rule, items such as the rod of reaving become very overpriced/nearly useless.
A matter of opinion, since damage is damage, after all. Those items would just lose their underpriced/too useful 'mass autokill' power. Bottom line is the minion rules have some issues...it's just a matter of time before someone gets 10 levels in one encounter by fighting a 'minion' tarrasque or the like.
(that's a joke, by the way)
Read that power more carefully. It doesn't just destroy minions, round after round, for free, it ALSO hurts the 'real' bad guys, too. Once the minions are mopped up with all the autodamage, the sphere is still there to deal damage to the other monsters.
I know the power. I was just wondering how you come at a number of 2-4 minions a round. (IMO 1 or 2, at best 3 - would be more realistic).
If Burniing Sphere/Armor just killed minions round after round for free, yeah, minions might make sense, since it's burning a resource. But those powers are still perfectly good against the 'real' monsters, too.
burning sphere requires a minor to sustain and a move action to move. it indeed doesn't drain an attack, but using it drains everything but an attack (if the wizard uses a sphere and a attack power, he's out of action).
A matter of opinion, since damage is damage, after all.
no it is not. effect damage is not the same as miss damage, or as hit damage.
A power with 'effect: ongoing 5 damage' (I'm thinking of a lvl 3 wizard power close burst, only effects enemies), is a auto-killer for minions. that's how the power is intended to work (if it wasn't they could easely have changed it to hit/miss - as they did with other powers). The power loses some of its strength if you change the rules (in fact, its biggest use is that it kills minions).
Bottom line is the minion rules have some issues...it's just a matter of time before someone gets 10 levels in one encounter by fighting a 'minion' tarrasque or the like.
(that's a joke, by the way)
and that is where resist (LVL/5) helps: a minion tarrasque won't be autokilled by a heroic level item, such as a rod of reaving+1. (something which is now the case).
Actually I'm having a problem with powers that encourage players to think "okay, I'll take STR 12, so my greenflame blade will deal 1 damage - just enough to kill minions"
a bit cheesy for my taste
I'd like to thank Veggiesama for the link. After reading all the suggestions there I'm leaning towards this houserule:
1. Minions do not have hit points.
2. Whenever an attack that deals damage hits a minion, it is killed.
3. A missed attack never damages a minion.
4. Whenever a minion is damaged by any other source, it is bloodied.
5. Whenever a bloodied minion is damaged, it is killed.
I don't see the problem with it. If you want higher STR, you lose out somewhere else, unless STR is a main stat for your class, in which case you probably were going to have a 12 or more anyway. Also, wizards are already great minion killers, but if a different character wants to try to fill that role (maybe because they're short a wizard), then what's the harm? Also, how does he know he will get a greenflame blade?
As for the houserule, if it works for you then great, but I just thought I'd point out that part of the thought process behind the design of minions was that you wouldn't have to track HP for hordes of nobodies, which creates a lot less work on the DM. If you have to track healthy vs bloodied for each minion, that's almost the same headache as tracking HP. It also makes it impossible for the PC to one-hit the minions, which is pretty iconic in fantasy literature and movies. It might make the PCs seem a little less heroic if they have to spend twice as long taking out goblin flunkies before reaching the evil wizard or whoever.
I like that idea. It helps with the type of scenario when PCs are trying to sneak into a castle and take out the guards quietly before they sound the alarm. I wouldn't apply to solos or elites, but otherwise it seems to be a pretty elegant solution.
Glad I could help.