Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 greatfrito Aug 10, 2010 13:16:18	This got very long, and out-of-hand, so: sblocks all around!  Seriously though, much of the background thought behind this is now under sblock tags - feel free to peruse.  If you don't feel like it though, still comment on the actual "homebrew" bit (which is not in sblocks).  Thanks! An Introduction of Concepts I doubt the general concepts here need much of an introduction, but here goes anyways: Currently, multiclassing in 4th edition uses up a lot of resources - one feat to "get access" (and some benefits), and then one feat for each power you want to substitute.  In addition, each character could only multiclass with one other class (except Bards), effectively making their "multiclass option" a resource in and of itself.  Several interesting options occupy this space, currently, such as the Spellscarred multiclass-only "class", and the Weapon Mastery (and similar option) "classes". However, with Dark Sun, we now have a different mechanic.  A character can just choose a theme at creation, and gains an additional encounter power from that theme.  As he advances, he can select Theme powers in place of his normal powers at certain levels (essentially "where available").
#2 sfurtwangler Aug 11, 2010 13:29:24	I like the basic premise you have here, but one thing that jumps out at me is that this option would open up a LOT more powers than the DS (and subsequent D&D Core) themes will make available. I don't have the Dark Sun campaign setting yet, so I can only guess as to how many powers each theme will make available at each level, but I am guessing no more than one (the realist in my says that they won't make more than a handful of powers for each theme). Having "wizard" as my theme would not only open up a dozen new powers at every level, but allow my character to cherry pick his powers from wizard and whatever his real class is. Going to your first point (which you've said you're sort of overlooking), my intuition says that a character with a real supported class as his theme would be much more powerful than a character with a dark sun theme.
#3 elvintry Aug 11, 2010 23:42:10	What if you limit the theme mulitclassing to the builds. Like War Wizard would have Burning hands as the encounter power gained at first level, Control Wizard would have Icy Terrain, ect. Then you would have related daily and utilty powers from a specific list for each multiclass theme. This would reduce the cherry picking option and also make use of a feature (builds) that already exists in game. Also, I think it's a good idea for the most part, but by using multiclassing as a theme it would remove options from the player. Unless you used the original multiclass rules too. In other words. In order to multiclass one would have to do so at the beginning of their career instead of anytime they choose. Also, it takes the the option of picking a theme and multiclassing away. So either you have a theme or multilcass but not both. Other than that I like the idea for the most part.
#4 boondocker Aug 14, 2010 9:57:32	Geez, greatfrito, you beat me to this! I'd been tossing this idea around for a while, but wanted to wait until I got my DS books to post it. That was two days ago, though, so procrastination FTL. This was my take, as a complete replacement for the present multiclassing rules: The rationale Multiclassing, as it stands, is too costly in terms of character options. At the heroic tier, it costs four of your six feats for the questionable benefit of three swapped powers, an extra skill, and a class feature-as-encounter power. At the paragon level, you lose out on the features granted by paragon paths to get more more power swaps (of lower levels). Judging by the discussions on the boards, very few people use Paragon Multiclassing. There's also something wrong when the main reason that people take multiclass feats is to broaden their paragon path/epic destiny options (or in some cases, because they were going to train in a skill anyway, so they figured, "Why not multiclass?"). I'm not saying that that's bad in itself -- it makes perfect sense to want more, better options -- but I am saying that the system seems a little borked. Why use themes? Well, themes are power-swapping "fixed." Like multiclassing, themes allow your character to gain a little of the flavour and/or mecahnical role of another class, but with a net gain of one power rather than the loss of one-to-three feats (counting power-swap feats only). So, as greatfrito proposed, why not use themes as the mechanic to multiclass? The concept At first level, players who wanted to multiclass would pick a theme corresponding to their desired multiclass. They'd get an extra encounter power, chosen from the list of that class' (sp?) at-wills. So a multiclass rogue might pick Sly Flourish as an encounter power. From there until level 10, when the character gains a power, they could pick powers from their multiclass instead, using the same limitations as the theme powers do (you have to have at least one power of each type from your main class), but using the ability scores for the powers as-written (not your highest score, as with the DS themes). After that, specific paragon paths would have to be developed for each class that granted features comparable to existing PPs. These could grant class features that multiclass feats currently grant, or grant new, thematically appropriate choices. Multiclass themes could also allow characters to take regular PPs of that class, filling the same role as the current feats. The powers typically granted by the paragon path would be taken from the multiclass class' power list (although the different power levels still bugs me). Themes would not grant an extra skill or a class feature-as-encounter power, but these could be offered in feats or moved up to the corresponding paragon paths. To remain useful, multiclass themes would give proficiency in one or more appropriate implement or weapon groups. Multiclass themes & bards Obviously, problems arise when bards want to multiclass in more than one class. Could a bard choose to take more than one theme, but gain the power for only one? Maybe this is where feats can step in, allowing another multiclass theme for the price of a feat. Now we're back to multiclass costing feats, though... Multiclass themes & hybrids Beyond disallowing these themes for hybrids (which seems necessary), I'm very interested in keeping the two options distinct. This would seem to be most apparent in two areas: one, hybrids are more likely to get the class features of their "second" class than multiclass characters. Seems fair. Second, hybrids are able to take powers of both classes into the Epic tier as well, where themes seem to allow only powers from the Heroic tier, and my multiclassing paragon path would open up powers from the Paragon tier. Epic tier powers from two classes would remain an option for hybrids only. Also seems fair to me. So, those were all of my thoughts on the matter, now forced out onto the page by greatfrito's post. :D Any thoughts?
#5 dugfromthearth Aug 15, 2010 15:15:24	the term "theme" seems to be used to not mean theme in the DS sense but just to change the rules for multiclassing.  I don't think DS uses theme to mean other class, it really means theme. my problem with multiclassing is that because it costs you a feat to swap powers, and because powers are so attribute dependent and often synergy dependent, it only makes sense to multiclass to cherry pick the very best powers. Plus the initial feat for multiclassing has benefits that are so varied they are not balanced.  Berserker's Fury +2 dmg for rest of the encounter,  Cyclone Warrior +1 damage for one turn. I think the half-elf leads the way.  Take the multiclass feat.  Then you can take at-will powers from the other class as encounter powers, and encounter powers as daily powers of a higher level.  No idea for utilities. You get the flavor of the other class, but it doesn't overshadow your current class.