Modified Paragon Multiclassing - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Modified Paragon Multiclassing

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
lachrymite
Jul 30, 2008 3:56:25 I came up with an idea for some new multiclassing rules and was interested in what people might think of them.

The basic premise is that, in my opinion, most of the real flavor from most classes comes not from the powers, but from the class features. The current multiclassing rules are based heavily on giving you access to a few choice powers from the secondary class, but give you no way whatsoever to gain any features, short of one of those features being available to you on a very limited basis if your particular multiclass power happens to grant limited use of a class ability.

This is a modification of Paragon Path multciassing. It's not any sort of attempt at a gestalt system. At the heroic tier, the multiclassing feats remain unchanged.

Comparing current Paragon multiclassing to a typical Paragon Path, the results are something like the following:

Typical Paragon Path:

* 11 - Gain one or two class features, an expanded use for Action Points, and a level 11 Encounter power
* 12 - Level 12 Utility power
* 16 - Gain another class feature
* 20 - Level 20 Daily power

Multiclassing:

* 11 - Replace one At Will power with a new At Will power from your second class, gain an Encounter power of 7th level or lower from your second class
* 12 - Gain a Utility power of 10th level or lower from your second class
* 20 - Gain a Daily power of lower than 19th level from your second class

Some people feel that the multiclassing option comes up pretty short.

My proposed fix is the following:

* 11 -You can no longer re-train your multiclass feats. Lose the benefit of your base multiclass feat. Select two class features from the basic class features list of your second class. You can now select At-Will and Encounter powers from either of your class power lists. One Encounter power from your second class may be any level due to your power swap feat, but any additional Encounter powers must be no higher than level 7.
* 12 - You can now select Utility powers from the lists of either of your class power lists. One Utility power from your second class may be any level due to your power swap feat, but any additional Utility powers must be no higher than level 10.
* 16 - Gain the remaining class features of your new class.
* 20 - You can now select your Daily powers from the power lists of either of your classes. One Daily power from your second class may be any level due to your power swap feat, but any additional Daily powers must be no higher than level 19.

With this method, you end up with 3 less powers overall (as the Paragon level powers are now swaps and not additional powers) and 4 less feats overall, as well as no additional Action Point bonus. To compensate, you get much better class features and a more flexible power selection which is limited in level selection available.

I'm interested in the opinions of people on this system, if it's too powerful or not powerful enough.
#2
eharper256
Jul 30, 2008 14:56:10 Its really just a swapping power for versaility affair here. See what that did for the Eternal Seeker? Not alot...really...except in certain class combonations.

You also have the issue that some classes have only three class features, so getting two of them at 11th might be a bit much (not to mention making 16th level a bit weedy, when it should be quite a nice granted power this level). That said, toned down this is a nice plan.

I believe that the Paragon multiclassing should basically allow you to straddle the two classes perfectly, a bit like the idea of gestalt from Unearthed Arcana, but obviously not that powerful (and giving up PP for it).

Personally, I liked the old ability to get new powers from the 2nd class. The fact that you've already taken 3 power swap feats means you must be interested. In fact, getting the new feats from the 2nd class gives you a perfect balance of two from each class.

I'd say merge the two, so:
11th- Swap an at-will power, get an encounter from the new class as your paragon feature, lose benefits of multiclass feat but gain ONE class feature from your second class.
12th- Gain a utility power from your second class as a paragon feature.
13th- When you replace an encounter power at this level, it can one of the ones from be from your original class, or the one you selected with novice power swap.
15th- When you replace a daily power at this level, it can one of the ones from be from your original class, or the one you selected with adept power swap.
16th- Gain ONE additional class feature from your second class.
17th- When you replace an encounter power at this level, it can one of the ones from be from your original class, or the one you selected with novice power swap.
19th- When you replace a daily power at this level, it can one of the ones from be from your original class, or the one you selected with adept power swap.
20th- Gain a daily power from your second class as a paragon feature.

Special: Powers gained at 11th, 12th and 20th are considered paragon features like they were granted by a Paragon Path. Hence, they cannot be replaced or retrained.

Well, at least, thats my opinion...
#3
lachrymite
Jul 31, 2008 1:17:17 Thanks for the feedback!

I'm actually thinking the best way to handle it, now, would be to make an actual new Paragon path for each individual class that selected the class features for you in advance, in order to try to balance the level 11/16 divide, so you don't end up with some getting two really good features at 11 and then a lousy one at 16. Space it out more to give one good one and one less impressive one at 11, and then another really good one at 16.

I'm going to try to write up a few of the paragon versions of the basic classes incorporating some of your suggestions to give a bit more of a balance between features and powers and then post them here.
#4
caliburx
Jul 31, 2008 16:59:38 I made a post almost exactly like this with some further changes (like swapping out multiclass powers as you levle) and was informed by almost everyone who replaid that it was too powerful, that it was "unbalanced" etc. etc. My solution to mulitclassing in 4E is to go back to playing 3.5 and to hell with 4E
#5
tejon
Aug 04, 2008 16:13:41 I like eharper256's progression. However, you can replace your feat-gained power swap every level without spending retraining, so no need to specify that! It simplifies to:

11th- Swap an at-will power, get an encounter from the new class as your paragon feature, lose benefits of multiclass feat but gain ONE class feature from your second class.
12th- Gain a utility power from your second class as a paragon feature.
16th- Gain ONE additional class feature from your second class.
20th- Gain a daily power from your second class as a paragon feature.

Special: Powers gained at 11th, 12th and 20th are considered paragon features like they were granted by a Paragon Path. Hence, they cannot be replaced or retrained.

So... basically all you're adding from RAW paragon multiclassing is the class features, and slightly higher level powers gained (but they're still capped).

And yeah, it's probably a good idea to pre-select the 11/16 class features gained for each multiclass. Might not even give the whole class worth, either. For instance: wizard multiclass gains spellbook at 11 (does not gain free rituals) and implement mastery at 16. Never gains cantrips -- didn't go to proper wizard school!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 lachrymite Jul 30, 2008 3:56:25	I came up with an idea for some new multiclassing rules and was interested in what people might think of them. The basic premise is that, in my opinion, most of the real flavor from most classes comes not from the powers, but from the class features. The current multiclassing rules are based heavily on giving you access to a few choice powers from the secondary class, but give you no way whatsoever to gain any features, short of one of those features being available to you on a very limited basis if your particular multiclass power happens to grant limited use of a class ability. This is a modification of Paragon Path multciassing. It's not any sort of attempt at a gestalt system. At the heroic tier, the multiclassing feats remain unchanged. Comparing current Paragon multiclassing to a typical Paragon Path, the results are something like the following: Typical Paragon Path: * 11 - Gain one or two class features, an expanded use for Action Points, and a level 11 Encounter power * 12 - Level 12 Utility power * 16 - Gain another class feature * 20 - Level 20 Daily power Multiclassing: * 11 - Replace one At Will power with a new At Will power from your second class, gain an Encounter power of 7th level or lower from your second class * 12 - Gain a Utility power of 10th level or lower from your second class * 20 - Gain a Daily power of lower than 19th level from your second class Some people feel that the multiclassing option comes up pretty short. My proposed fix is the following: * 11 -You can no longer re-train your multiclass feats. Lose the benefit of your base multiclass feat. Select two class features from the basic class features list of your second class. You can now select At-Will and Encounter powers from either of your class power lists. One Encounter power from your second class may be any level due to your power swap feat, but any additional Encounter powers must be no higher than level 7. * 12 - You can now select Utility powers from the lists of either of your class power lists. One Utility power from your second class may be any level due to your power swap feat, but any additional Utility powers must be no higher than level 10. * 16 - Gain the remaining class features of your new class. * 20 - You can now select your Daily powers from the power lists of either of your classes. One Daily power from your second class may be any level due to your power swap feat, but any additional Daily powers must be no higher than level 19. With this method, you end up with 3 less powers overall (as the Paragon level powers are now swaps and not additional powers) and 4 less feats overall, as well as no additional Action Point bonus. To compensate, you get much better class features and a more flexible power selection which is limited in level selection available. I'm interested in the opinions of people on this system, if it's too powerful or not powerful enough.
#2 eharper256 Jul 30, 2008 14:56:10	Its really just a swapping power for versaility affair here. See what that did for the Eternal Seeker? Not alot...really...except in certain class combonations. You also have the issue that some classes have only three class features, so getting two of them at 11th might be a bit much (not to mention making 16th level a bit weedy, when it should be quite a nice granted power this level). That said, toned down this is a nice plan. I believe that the Paragon multiclassing should basically allow you to straddle the two classes perfectly, a bit like the idea of gestalt from Unearthed Arcana, but obviously not that powerful (and giving up PP for it). Personally, I liked the old ability to get new powers from the 2nd class. The fact that you've already taken 3 power swap feats means you must be interested. In fact, getting the new feats from the 2nd class gives you a perfect balance of two from each class. I'd say merge the two, so: 11th- Swap an at-will power, get an encounter from the new class as your paragon feature, lose benefits of multiclass feat but gain ONE class feature from your second class. 12th- Gain a utility power from your second class as a paragon feature. 13th- When you replace an encounter power at this level, it can one of the ones from be from your original class, or the one you selected with novice power swap. 15th- When you replace a daily power at this level, it can one of the ones from be from your original class, or the one you selected with adept power swap. 16th- Gain ONE additional class feature from your second class. 17th- When you replace an encounter power at this level, it can one of the ones from be from your original class, or the one you selected with novice power swap. 19th- When you replace a daily power at this level, it can one of the ones from be from your original class, or the one you selected with adept power swap. 20th- Gain a daily power from your second class as a paragon feature. Special: Powers gained at 11th, 12th and 20th are considered paragon features like they were granted by a Paragon Path. Hence, they cannot be replaced or retrained. Well, at least, thats my opinion...
#3 lachrymite Jul 31, 2008 1:17:17	Thanks for the feedback! I'm actually thinking the best way to handle it, now, would be to make an actual new Paragon path for each individual class that selected the class features for you in advance, in order to try to balance the level 11/16 divide, so you don't end up with some getting two really good features at 11 and then a lousy one at 16. Space it out more to give one good one and one less impressive one at 11, and then another really good one at 16. I'm going to try to write up a few of the paragon versions of the basic classes incorporating some of your suggestions to give a bit more of a balance between features and powers and then post them here.
#4 caliburx Jul 31, 2008 16:59:38	I made a post almost exactly like this with some further changes (like swapping out multiclass powers as you levle) and was informed by almost everyone who replaid that it was too powerful, that it was "unbalanced" etc. etc. My solution to mulitclassing in 4E is to go back to playing 3.5 and to hell with 4E
#5 tejon Aug 04, 2008 16:13:41	I like eharper256's progression. However, you can replace your feat-gained power swap every level without spending retraining, so no need to specify that! It simplifies to: 11th- Swap an at-will power, get an encounter from the new class as your paragon feature, lose benefits of multiclass feat but gain ONE class feature from your second class. 12th- Gain a utility power from your second class as a paragon feature. 16th- Gain ONE additional class feature from your second class. 20th- Gain a daily power from your second class as a paragon feature. Special: Powers gained at 11th, 12th and 20th are considered paragon features like they were granted by a Paragon Path. Hence, they cannot be replaced or retrained. So... basically all you're adding from RAW paragon multiclassing is the class features, and slightly higher level powers gained (but they're still capped). And yeah, it's probably a good idea to pre-select the 11/16 class features gained for each multiclass. Might not even give the whole class worth, either. For instance: wizard multiclass gains spellbook at 11 (does not gain free rituals) and implement mastery at 16. Never gains cantrips -- didn't go to proper wizard school!