monster building advice - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

monster building advice

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
voxynn
Oct 14, 2011 16:56:22 Hey,

I'm looking to build a unique level 3/4 monster for a dungeon and I have some specific ideas in mind but i'm not sure how to implement them in a realistic game sense.

The monster is a troll berserker, an unthinking furious machine that can run clear across the room in one direction at a time, similar to a queen on a chessboard. The troll attacks the character that hurt it last, or the character closest to it. It's main attack is a charge, more of a trample really, but it also has a swiping or pounding attack that it can use on nearby enemies.

Can anyone give me advice on how to create a set of attacks, stats etc for such a monster?

Thanks!
#2
ToeSama
Oct 14, 2011 17:07:12 Is this for 4e, or 3.5?
#3
voxynn
Oct 15, 2011 1:52:34
Is this for 4e, or 3.5?

It's for 4e.
#4
Black_Egg
Oct 15, 2011 7:40:32 I'm not entirely certain of what you are looking for yet. Most of what you describe is either bad tactics on the monster's part (targeting & possibly movement restrictions plus a rage machine) or charging, which is a default ability available even to wizards, although they tend to be horrible at it.

The first thing that came to mind when you mentioned this was Batman's fight vs Bane in the Arkham Asylum game. The mechanics of that fight (requirement to dodge & such) wouldn't translate well to a D&D monster directly, but it could be a flavor starting point. At the very least, I'd recommend that you consider giving the monster a 'throw broken masonry' attack or something similar. Monsters that don't have ranged attacks at all leave themselves open to being trivialized by slow/immobilize.

We could also work with the bad tactics segment. Maybe the monster gets a bonus to damage versus the enemy that hit it last. This would encourage the monster to break defender marks even if it took some extra damage in the process. Alternately, you could give the monster bonuses against a defender that has it marked (not something I recommend doing often, but it's fair game to do rarely).

Be careful about using a troll at this low level range. In order to represent its flavor properly, trolls tend to have at least 10 regeneration. That's a lot against level 3-4 PCs. This might be OK if at least one of the PCs uses fire or acid on a regular basis. You could also tone the regeneration down to 5, although I'm not sure I like that in a flavor sense. It also might be OK if the party members are real damage machines. It's something to keep an eye on, though. If you are worried about it, consider changing the monster to an ogre or something like that.

While we're on the topic of troll-specific issues, keep in mind that the kill conditions for trolls in the first Monster Manual were really awful. I just checked the troll kill condition in Monster Manual 2, and (while I think they could do better) the process is much improved.

For a good trample mechanic, look at the White Dragon monster from the Monster Vault (not the first Monster Manual). The dragon's off-turn Instinctive Rampage ability might be a good starting point.

Is this troll going to be a solo monster? Will it have allies? If it has allies, will it use them as weapons?
#5
voxynn
Oct 15, 2011 10:42:13
Many of the party are big Gears of War fans, so my inspiration for the monster is that game's Berserker. The Bane comparison is close as well. The alteration to the troll race doesn't have to be fixed, it was just the first race that popped into my head that had the same general size characteristics.

The addition of a 'throw masonry' attack is a good suggestion - one strategy for beating this particular encounter would be to have the 'troll' charge into a number of columns that are in the room. This would deal damage to the monster, but then also open up the throwing attack.

Do you suggest 'trample' as a more realistic alternative to 'charge'?
#6
Black_Egg
Oct 15, 2011 13:30:07 I don't think that this is an either/or proposition. The troll could very well do both.

I can't help with the Gears of War Berserker fight, but if we want to try to model the Bane combat, we can do a few things with that.

First, I'll go back to the throw masonry suggestion: Give him a normal 'throw rock' attack that he can use anywhere, just in case he gets stuck out of melee range somehow, but don't plan on using it. Give him a second area burst 1 attack 'throw masonry' that he can only use if he's next to a broken pillar and does more damage. Both of these can be at-will, and Throw Masonry will be limited by the availability of pillar rubble, which disappears after he uses it once.

Second, the charge attack: In the Bane encounter, Batman has to dodge Bane in order to get the big guy to stun himself against a wall. Initially, I was thinking that this wouldn't be practical in 4th edition but we might be able to do something with it. Trollzilla can charge a PC: If he hits, he can push the party member two squares and shift two squares to a square adjacent to the PC. If the PC is adjacent to a wall (or pillar) after the push, Trollzilla gets bonus damage, but the pillar doesn't break and no pillar rubble is created. If Trollzilla misses the PC, it continues on to smash into the pillar and get stunned until the end of its next turn, pillar rubble is produced and Trollzilla takes damage.

The pillar mechanic needs to be delivered to the players in a reasonable way, though. If you don't tell them about it in advance, they won't try to take advantage of it and the fight risks devolving into a boring slugfest. Explaining the whole mechanic breaks immersion dramatically though. Something like allowing the party to notice with a low DC perception check that the pillars looks unstable and give them more information (but not exact mechanics) with a moderate/high dungeoneering check.

There was another important part of the Bane fight: That Batman absolutely couldn't compete with Bane in a slugfest. This part is tricky. In D&D mechanics, your melee bruiser PCs won't run away before they die, unless they play unlike any party I've ever seen. You might be able to simulate a similar result through other means, though. The real purpose of Bane's melee dominance was to reset the fight and begin the charge/crash cycle all over again. You could try using something similar to the White Dragon's Instinctive Rampage ability to "reset" the fight by allowing the Troll to move away and get ready to charge again before its next turn starts. Maybe instead of the Instinctive Rampage mechanic, Trollzilla still goes on its initiative +5 (rather than +10 to minimize how many PCs might be between the two actions) but does a low damage close burst 1 that pushes the party three squares and lets Trollzilla move his speed.

I'd hesitate to call it finishing touches given that we don't even have a proper build yet, but you might want to consider giving Trollzilla an encounter mark-breaking mechanic as well. A melee beater solo monster like this is fairly vulnerable to being locked down in melee by a good defender. You don't want to negate the defender mechanic completely, but allowing Trollzilla one "get out of jail free" card isn't too harmful. If you do this, be nice and have Trollzilla act a bit stupid in relation to the mark mechanic sometime else during the fight. Knowing what defender(s) you are up against would allow a better analysis.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 voxynn Oct 14, 2011 16:56:22	Hey, I'm looking to build a unique level 3/4 monster for a dungeon and I have some specific ideas in mind but i'm not sure how to implement them in a realistic game sense. The monster is a troll berserker, an unthinking furious machine that can run clear across the room in one direction at a time, similar to a queen on a chessboard. The troll attacks the character that hurt it last, or the character closest to it. It's main attack is a charge, more of a trample really, but it also has a swiping or pounding attack that it can use on nearby enemies. Can anyone give me advice on how to create a set of attacks, stats etc for such a monster? Thanks!
#2 ToeSama Oct 14, 2011 17:07:12	Is this for 4e, or 3.5?
#3 voxynn Oct 15, 2011 1:52:34	Is this for 4e, or 3.5? It's for 4e.
#4 Black_Egg Oct 15, 2011 7:40:32	I'm not entirely certain of what you are looking for yet. Most of what you describe is either bad tactics on the monster's part (targeting & possibly movement restrictions plus a rage machine) or charging, which is a default ability available even to wizards, although they tend to be horrible at it. The first thing that came to mind when you mentioned this was Batman's fight vs Bane in the Arkham Asylum game. The mechanics of that fight (requirement to dodge & such) wouldn't translate well to a D&D monster directly, but it could be a flavor starting point. At the very least, I'd recommend that you consider giving the monster a 'throw broken masonry' attack or something similar. Monsters that don't have ranged attacks at all leave themselves open to being trivialized by slow/immobilize. We could also work with the bad tactics segment. Maybe the monster gets a bonus to damage versus the enemy that hit it last. This would encourage the monster to break defender marks even if it took some extra damage in the process. Alternately, you could give the monster bonuses against a defender that has it marked (not something I recommend doing often, but it's fair game to do rarely). Be careful about using a troll at this low level range. In order to represent its flavor properly, trolls tend to have at least 10 regeneration. That's a lot against level 3-4 PCs. This might be OK if at least one of the PCs uses fire or acid on a regular basis. You could also tone the regeneration down to 5, although I'm not sure I like that in a flavor sense. It also might be OK if the party members are real damage machines. It's something to keep an eye on, though. If you are worried about it, consider changing the monster to an ogre or something like that. While we're on the topic of troll-specific issues, keep in mind that the kill conditions for trolls in the first Monster Manual were really awful. I just checked the troll kill condition in Monster Manual 2, and (while I think they could do better) the process is much improved. For a good trample mechanic, look at the White Dragon monster from the Monster Vault (not the first Monster Manual). The dragon's off-turn Instinctive Rampage ability might be a good starting point. Is this troll going to be a solo monster? Will it have allies? If it has allies, will it use them as weapons?
#5 voxynn Oct 15, 2011 10:42:13	Many of the party are big Gears of War fans, so my inspiration for the monster is that game's Berserker. The Bane comparison is close as well. The alteration to the troll race doesn't have to be fixed, it was just the first race that popped into my head that had the same general size characteristics. The addition of a 'throw masonry' attack is a good suggestion - one strategy for beating this particular encounter would be to have the 'troll' charge into a number of columns that are in the room. This would deal damage to the monster, but then also open up the throwing attack. Do you suggest 'trample' as a more realistic alternative to 'charge'?
#6 Black_Egg Oct 15, 2011 13:30:07	I don't think that this is an either/or proposition. The troll could very well do both. I can't help with the Gears of War Berserker fight, but if we want to try to model the Bane combat, we can do a few things with that. First, I'll go back to the throw masonry suggestion: Give him a normal 'throw rock' attack that he can use anywhere, just in case he gets stuck out of melee range somehow, but don't plan on using it. Give him a second area burst 1 attack 'throw masonry' that he can only use if he's next to a broken pillar and does more damage. Both of these can be at-will, and Throw Masonry will be limited by the availability of pillar rubble, which disappears after he uses it once. Second, the charge attack: In the Bane encounter, Batman has to dodge Bane in order to get the big guy to stun himself against a wall. Initially, I was thinking that this wouldn't be practical in 4th edition but we might be able to do something with it. Trollzilla can charge a PC: If he hits, he can push the party member two squares and shift two squares to a square adjacent to the PC. If the PC is adjacent to a wall (or pillar) after the push, Trollzilla gets bonus damage, but the pillar doesn't break and no pillar rubble is created. If Trollzilla misses the PC, it continues on to smash into the pillar and get stunned until the end of its next turn, pillar rubble is produced and Trollzilla takes damage. The pillar mechanic needs to be delivered to the players in a reasonable way, though. If you don't tell them about it in advance, they won't try to take advantage of it and the fight risks devolving into a boring slugfest. Explaining the whole mechanic breaks immersion dramatically though. Something like allowing the party to notice with a low DC perception check that the pillars looks unstable and give them more information (but not exact mechanics) with a moderate/high dungeoneering check. There was another important part of the Bane fight: That Batman absolutely couldn't compete with Bane in a slugfest. This part is tricky. In D&D mechanics, your melee bruiser PCs won't run away before they die, unless they play unlike any party I've ever seen. You might be able to simulate a similar result through other means, though. The real purpose of Bane's melee dominance was to reset the fight and begin the charge/crash cycle all over again. You could try using something similar to the White Dragon's Instinctive Rampage ability to "reset" the fight by allowing the Troll to move away and get ready to charge again before its next turn starts. Maybe instead of the Instinctive Rampage mechanic, Trollzilla still goes on its initiative +5 (rather than +10 to minimize how many PCs might be between the two actions) but does a low damage close burst 1 that pushes the party three squares and lets Trollzilla move his speed. I'd hesitate to call it finishing touches given that we don't even have a proper build yet, but you might want to consider giving Trollzilla an encounter mark-breaking mechanic as well. A melee beater solo monster like this is fairly vulnerable to being locked down in melee by a good defender. You don't want to negate the defender mechanic completely, but allowing Trollzilla one "get out of jail free" card isn't too harmful. If you do this, be nice and have Trollzilla act a bit stupid in relation to the mark mechanic sometime else during the fight. Knowing what defender(s) you are up against would allow a better analysis.