Morality Points - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Morality Points

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
appletini
Apr 07, 2009 13:30:23 Hey everyone!

I was looking through the keep on the shadowfell conversion for an FR game that I'm going to be starting in a few days and one of the options that the players are first given is to save someone or let them be killed which made me think that there should be some sort of system in place that causes these choices to affect things. (Think fable 2) Something along the lines like if they let the character die they get a negative moral point and when they get to a certain point their deity or a deity who happens to watch over them causes something to happen to them or to their world, positive or negative (which can also be sort of reversed. Again depending on the deity that they revere, that way any evil leaning characters won't be punished for playing themselves) any thoughts or suggestions? maybe you use something like this?
#2
Shiftkitty
Apr 07, 2009 14:44:09 I tried messing with morality back in 2e and it was more trouble than it was worth. I recommend, if a PC has the Divine power source, that acts against the tenets of his/her god lead to another god getting interested. Communicate this through dreams and visions.

For example, a Good cleric lets someone die. As the person gasps their last breath, the cleric's mind receives a vision of a vile god, grinning maliciously and hissing "Yessssssssss!" If they keep it up the visions get stronger and stronger. One night they have a dream that they are standing amidst their loved ones' corpses, a bloody knife/axe/mace/whatever in their hands. When they awake, the images are vivid and they are shaken. If that still doesn't get their attention, start fudging with god-granted powers, such as Channel Divinity. Why should Bahamut allow you to channel squat if you're paying more homage through your deeds to Tharizdun or Tiamat? If they haven't gotten the picture yet, either start reducing their radiant damage or change it to a power source more in tune with the god they're acting more in line with.
#3
Neutronium_Dragon
Apr 07, 2009 17:29:51 In 4E, divine spellcasters are not dependent on the deity for any of their power, so there's no 'take it away', unlike old-E. Likewise, deities aren't generally as activist as they were in old-E so they're unlikely to start pulling visions on the person.

However, the rest of the faith is liable to take exception to this cleric's actions, and they're the ones he'll have to answer to.
#4
salla
Apr 07, 2009 18:11:27
In 4E, divine spellcasters are not dependent on the deity for any of their power, so there's no 'take it away', unlike old-E. Likewise, deities aren't generally as activist as they were in old-E so they're unlikely to start pulling visions on the person.

However, the rest of the faith is liable to take exception to this cleric's actions, and they're the ones he'll have to answer to.

Bingo.
#5
appletini
Apr 07, 2009 19:27:31 I actually was thinking more about ALL of the characters and not just the ones who are linked to a deity
#6
Shiftkitty
Apr 07, 2009 21:35:38 I keep forgetting to mention that I'm applying my tweak. Sorry about that. Divine-sourced PCs, IMG, are held to a higher standard than others as they work (more or less) directly for their god.

I believe that Divine-power PCs should have to get their powers from the gods. I know this causes a lot of conflict over basing your faith on a philosophy rather than a diety, but in my game anything you can come up with is overseen by one deity or another. To me, it's the fundamental property that separates a cleric from a wizard. IMO, of course.

(I try to encourage divine casters to flavor their prayers to reflect their deity. A priest of Moradin, for example, casting a radiant keyword power might have the business end of that radiance look like a hammer. If he slips too far in his faith, I advise him that, rather than the hammer he's so used to manifesting, a blazing skull (for example) appears. Now he knows something's wrong. It's my way of keeping the gods relevant.)
#7
appletini
Apr 08, 2009 1:05:27 I suppose I should clarify the idea that i'm hoping to implement. To start i'll say that it won't have anything to do with your connection to your powers or your chosen gods. The idea is that if my players decide not to save this helpless old man in the first part of the story then they get a negative tally against their morality which ill keep track of. The points themselves won't come from each and every decision but more from bigger scale choices. The points won't control where they go but ill make it clear that their lives affect the world around them. the most obvious way to have it affect the characters is by using where their points land to have that scale lead how the people in the world view my players. Do they revere them as heroes? are they disgusted with the stories they've heard? perhaps at some point it welcomes in npcs that have heard of their kindness or evil deeds, societies or some such. I have a few other ideas for benefits and penalties but I have to flesh them out a little more
#8
appletini
Apr 08, 2009 1:06:22 I suppose I should clarify the idea that i'm hoping to implement. To start i'll say that it won't have anything to do with your connection to your powers or your chosen gods. The idea is that if my players decide not to save this helpless old man in the first part of the story then they get a negative tally against their morality which ill keep track of. The points themselves won't come from each and every decision but more from bigger scale choices. The points won't control where they go but ill make it clear that their lives affect the world around them. the most obvious way to have it affect the characters is by using where their points land to have that scale lead how the people in the world view my players. Do they revere them as heroes? are they disgusted with the stories they've heard? perhaps at some point it welcomes in npcs that have heard of their kindness or evil deeds, societies or some such. I have a few other ideas for benefits and penalties but I have to flesh them out a little more
#9
pogminky
Apr 08, 2009 2:45:16 I avoid extra book-keeping, so any rigid system is out. Keep it simple. Make the odd note of PCs particular good/evil deeds and have consequences develop over time.

Some possible consequences:

1) Law enforcement
2) Relative, tribe, friend, church etc retribution or censure
3) Reputation
4) No service/ discounts from shops
5) Awards, titles, statues, songs
6) Change in appearance (see Taint from Heroes of Horror)
7) Reflavour powers (magic missle starts to look nasty/ radient becomes necrotic etc.)
8) Deity intervention! Dreams, maybe...
9) Devils turn up to do 'deals'
10) Monsters start to attack PC less/more
11) Animals, children hiss at PC (or run to them)
12) Development of mental illnesses or hauntings
13) Change in alignment
14) Plants wither/bloom around PC
#10
appletini
Apr 08, 2009 5:58:18
I avoid extra book-keeping, so any rigid system is out. Keep it simple. Make the odd note of PCs particular good/evil deeds and have consequences develop over time.

Some possible consequences:

1) Law enforcement
2) Relative, tribe, friend, church etc retribution or censure
3) Reputation
4) No service/ discounts from shops
5) Awards, titles, statues, songs
6) Change in appearance (see Taint from Heroes of Horror)
7) Reflavour powers (magic missle starts to look nasty/ radient becomes necrotic etc.)
8) Deity intervention! Dreams, maybe...
9) Devils turn up to do 'deals'
10) Monsters start to attack PC less/more
11) Animals, children hiss at PC (or run to them)
12) Development of mental illnesses or hauntings
13) Change in alignment
14) Plants wither/bloom around PC

I actually really like some of these ideas, I'll definitely be using some of them. These are the kinds of things that I was thinking about (Also, sorry about the double post earlier. my palm was freaking out.)
#11
Shiftkitty
Apr 08, 2009 10:15:11 Yeah, good luck with the bookkeeping. This is knid of like the Fame/Infamy points from TES series of video games. I sometimes have to make choices in grey areas of that game and it can come back to bite me in the butt! (How was I to know that picking something up from the floor to put it back on the shelf in an inn would count as shoplifting?)
#12
mkill
Apr 08, 2009 11:57:47 Games need a reputation system to model the behaviour of the game world. As DM, you don't need to tie yourself to a strict system, you can decide these things directly by common sense.

To take the OP's example, the group is sent out to rescue a young priestess of Selune that was abducted by an evil cult. If they manage to stop the cult and save her, the church will be grateful. Word of their deeds will spread, and priests in distant Selune temples will welcome them with an "aren't you the one's who saved Aylina?" and offer free healing and similar services.

If, on the other hand, they think priestess sacrifice is an acceptable past-time activity and take the offer to join the cult, expect the church of Selune to send in some Paladins to investigate.

Keeping track of the groups image in the game world is part of an ongoing campaign. But instead of wasting time on an arbitrary point system that is invisible to the PCs anyway, play these effects out directly in NPC actions. Just go with what you think is natural.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 appletini Apr 07, 2009 13:30:23	Hey everyone! I was looking through the keep on the shadowfell conversion for an FR game that I'm going to be starting in a few days and one of the options that the players are first given is to save someone or let them be killed which made me think that there should be some sort of system in place that causes these choices to affect things. (Think fable 2) Something along the lines like if they let the character die they get a negative moral point and when they get to a certain point their deity or a deity who happens to watch over them causes something to happen to them or to their world, positive or negative (which can also be sort of reversed. Again depending on the deity that they revere, that way any evil leaning characters won't be punished for playing themselves) any thoughts or suggestions? maybe you use something like this?
#2 Shiftkitty Apr 07, 2009 14:44:09	I tried messing with morality back in 2e and it was more trouble than it was worth. I recommend, if a PC has the Divine power source, that acts against the tenets of his/her god lead to another god getting interested. Communicate this through dreams and visions. For example, a Good cleric lets someone die. As the person gasps their last breath, the cleric's mind receives a vision of a vile god, grinning maliciously and hissing "Yessssssssss!" If they keep it up the visions get stronger and stronger. One night they have a dream that they are standing amidst their loved ones' corpses, a bloody knife/axe/mace/whatever in their hands. When they awake, the images are vivid and they are shaken. If that still doesn't get their attention, start fudging with god-granted powers, such as Channel Divinity. Why should Bahamut allow you to channel squat if you're paying more homage through your deeds to Tharizdun or Tiamat? If they haven't gotten the picture yet, either start reducing their radiant damage or change it to a power source more in tune with the god they're acting more in line with.
#3 Neutronium_Dragon Apr 07, 2009 17:29:51	In 4E, divine spellcasters are not dependent on the deity for any of their power, so there's no 'take it away', unlike old-E. Likewise, deities aren't generally as activist as they were in old-E so they're unlikely to start pulling visions on the person. However, the rest of the faith is liable to take exception to this cleric's actions, and they're the ones he'll have to answer to.
#4 salla Apr 07, 2009 18:11:27	In 4E, divine spellcasters are not dependent on the deity for any of their power, so there's no 'take it away', unlike old-E. Likewise, deities aren't generally as activist as they were in old-E so they're unlikely to start pulling visions on the person. However, the rest of the faith is liable to take exception to this cleric's actions, and they're the ones he'll have to answer to. Bingo.
#5 appletini Apr 07, 2009 19:27:31	I actually was thinking more about ALL of the characters and not just the ones who are linked to a deity
#6 Shiftkitty Apr 07, 2009 21:35:38	I keep forgetting to mention that I'm applying my tweak. Sorry about that. Divine-sourced PCs, IMG, are held to a higher standard than others as they work (more or less) directly for their god. I believe that Divine-power PCs should have to get their powers from the gods. I know this causes a lot of conflict over basing your faith on a philosophy rather than a diety, but in my game anything you can come up with is overseen by one deity or another. To me, it's the fundamental property that separates a cleric from a wizard. IMO, of course. (I try to encourage divine casters to flavor their prayers to reflect their deity. A priest of Moradin, for example, casting a radiant keyword power might have the business end of that radiance look like a hammer. If he slips too far in his faith, I advise him that, rather than the hammer he's so used to manifesting, a blazing skull (for example) appears. Now he knows something's wrong. It's my way of keeping the gods relevant.)
#7 appletini Apr 08, 2009 1:05:27	I suppose I should clarify the idea that i'm hoping to implement. To start i'll say that it won't have anything to do with your connection to your powers or your chosen gods. The idea is that if my players decide not to save this helpless old man in the first part of the story then they get a negative tally against their morality which ill keep track of. The points themselves won't come from each and every decision but more from bigger scale choices. The points won't control where they go but ill make it clear that their lives affect the world around them. the most obvious way to have it affect the characters is by using where their points land to have that scale lead how the people in the world view my players. Do they revere them as heroes? are they disgusted with the stories they've heard? perhaps at some point it welcomes in npcs that have heard of their kindness or evil deeds, societies or some such. I have a few other ideas for benefits and penalties but I have to flesh them out a little more
#8 appletini Apr 08, 2009 1:06:22	I suppose I should clarify the idea that i'm hoping to implement. To start i'll say that it won't have anything to do with your connection to your powers or your chosen gods. The idea is that if my players decide not to save this helpless old man in the first part of the story then they get a negative tally against their morality which ill keep track of. The points themselves won't come from each and every decision but more from bigger scale choices. The points won't control where they go but ill make it clear that their lives affect the world around them. the most obvious way to have it affect the characters is by using where their points land to have that scale lead how the people in the world view my players. Do they revere them as heroes? are they disgusted with the stories they've heard? perhaps at some point it welcomes in npcs that have heard of their kindness or evil deeds, societies or some such. I have a few other ideas for benefits and penalties but I have to flesh them out a little more
#9 pogminky Apr 08, 2009 2:45:16	I avoid extra book-keeping, so any rigid system is out. Keep it simple. Make the odd note of PCs particular good/evil deeds and have consequences develop over time. Some possible consequences: 1) Law enforcement 2) Relative, tribe, friend, church etc retribution or censure 3) Reputation 4) No service/ discounts from shops 5) Awards, titles, statues, songs 6) Change in appearance (see Taint from Heroes of Horror) 7) Reflavour powers (magic missle starts to look nasty/ radient becomes necrotic etc.) 8) Deity intervention! Dreams, maybe... 9) Devils turn up to do 'deals' 10) Monsters start to attack PC less/more 11) Animals, children hiss at PC (or run to them) 12) Development of mental illnesses or hauntings 13) Change in alignment 14) Plants wither/bloom around PC
#10 appletini Apr 08, 2009 5:58:18	I avoid extra book-keeping, so any rigid system is out. Keep it simple. Make the odd note of PCs particular good/evil deeds and have consequences develop over time. Some possible consequences: 1) Law enforcement 2) Relative, tribe, friend, church etc retribution or censure 3) Reputation 4) No service/ discounts from shops 5) Awards, titles, statues, songs 6) Change in appearance (see Taint from Heroes of Horror) 7) Reflavour powers (magic missle starts to look nasty/ radient becomes necrotic etc.) 8) Deity intervention! Dreams, maybe... 9) Devils turn up to do 'deals' 10) Monsters start to attack PC less/more 11) Animals, children hiss at PC (or run to them) 12) Development of mental illnesses or hauntings 13) Change in alignment 14) Plants wither/bloom around PC I actually really like some of these ideas, I'll definitely be using some of them. These are the kinds of things that I was thinking about (Also, sorry about the double post earlier. my palm was freaking out.)
#11 Shiftkitty Apr 08, 2009 10:15:11	Yeah, good luck with the bookkeeping. This is knid of like the Fame/Infamy points from TES series of video games. I sometimes have to make choices in grey areas of that game and it can come back to bite me in the butt! (How was I to know that picking something up from the floor to put it back on the shelf in an inn would count as shoplifting?)
#12 mkill Apr 08, 2009 11:57:47	Games need a reputation system to model the behaviour of the game world. As DM, you don't need to tie yourself to a strict system, you can decide these things directly by common sense. To take the OP's example, the group is sent out to rescue a young priestess of Selune that was abducted by an evil cult. If they manage to stop the cult and save her, the church will be grateful. Word of their deeds will spread, and priests in distant Selune temples will welcome them with an "aren't you the one's who saved Aylina?" and offer free healing and similar services. If, on the other hand, they think priestess sacrifice is an acceptable past-time activity and take the offer to join the cult, expect the church of Selune to send in some Paladins to investigate. Keeping track of the groups image in the game world is part of an ongoing campaign. But instead of wasting time on an arbitrary point system that is invisible to the PCs anyway, play these effects out directly in NPC actions. Just go with what you think is natural.