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| #1kuraku256Jul 01, 2008 2:54:50 | I've found my self a bit disappointed with the multi-classing feats in 4th edition. They don't seem to let a character step into another class's role for more than a round or two and you can only get weak versions of class features. The power swap feats in particular seem to of limited usefulness. I've come up with my own set of feats which are more powerful but come with more prereqs that hopefully balance them a bit. The power swap feats are largely the same, but they allow you to continue picking up more out of class powers without having to give up a paragon path entirely and with a new feat at the end to encourage taking all of them despite their questionable power. I'd like some input on the system since none of my usual power gamers are around to help me out with it. I've used the name dual-classing to avoid confusion in conversation. Dual-Classing v0.2.0.1 Heroic Tier Dual-Class Prerequisites: 13 in two of the chosen class's Key Abilities, Skill Training feat in one of the skills from the chosen class's skill list, training in at least one skill from the chosen class's skill or skills that are not part of normal skill selection if any. Benefit: You gain one of class features from your chosen class under the chosen class's Class Feature heading. (not the sub-heading under Class Powers) A class feature chosen this way may not grant attack powers, utility powers, or rituals. Any reference to powers is considered to only refer to powers of the chosen class. You count as a member of your chosen class for the purposes of qualifiying for paragon paths and feats. If your chosen class can use implements then you can use those implements when using your chosen class's powers. Improved Dual-Class Prerequisites: Dual-Class Benefit: You gain a new class feature from your chosen class as if from the Dual-Class feat. Special: You may take this feat multiple times, each time selecting a new class feature. This feat does not allow you to gain the same class feature twice and make a different choice for that feature. Novice Power Prerequisites: Dual-Class Benefit: You swap one of your encounter attack powers for one from your chosen class of the same level or lower. When you gain a paragon path encounter attack power you may gain one from your chosen class of the same level or lower instead. Apprentice Power Prerequisites: Dual-Class Benefit: You swap one of your utility powers for one from your chosen class of the same level or lower. When you gain a paragon path utility power you may gain one from your chosen class of the same level or lower instead. Special: Wizards must swap two of their utility powers for a utility power of the same level or lower than the lower level wizard power. This does not apply to selecting a power in place of a paragon path power. Wizards do not prepare non-wizard powers from their spellbook, they are able to prepare one fewer wizard utility power after an extended rest for each non-wizard utility power they have from this feat. Characters that have taken the Spellbook class feature select two wizard utility powers rather than one and prepare one from their spellbook after each extended rest, for each power they give up with this feat. Adept Power Prerequisites: Dual-Class Benefit: You swap one of your daily attack powers for one from your chosen class of the same level or lower. When you gain a paragon path daily attack power you may gain one from your chosen class of the same level or lower instead. Special: Wizards must swap two (three if they have expanded spellbook) of their utility powers for a daily attack power of the same level or lower than the lowest level wizard power. This does not apply to selecting a power in place of a paragon path power. Wizards do not prepare non-wizard powers from their spellbook, they are able to prepare one fewer wizard daily attack power after an extended rest for each non-wizard daily attack power they have from this feat. Characters that have taken the Spellbook class feature select two (three if they have Expanded Spellbook) wizard daily attack powers rather than one and prepare one from their spellbook after each extended rest, for each power they give up with this feat. Paragon Tier Master Power Prerequisites: Dual-Class, Novice Power, Apprentice Power, Adept Power Benefit: You gain one of the at-will attack powers from your chosen class. Special: Humans may swap their bonus at-will power for one form their chosen class as well. I hope the wording is not too confusing, but it should be pretty unambiguous about what I want the feats to be capable of. The Key Abilities are listed in the Class Traits block in the PHB, I used these as part of the prereqs so I could make one generic feat rather than many and hopefully not need to revise the system each time a new class comes out. I'm not sure if the notes concerning wizards are clear, but I decided to put that in so that their increased selection of powers doesn't dilute the cost of dual-classing, (and since I thought wizards preparing out of class powers from their spellbooks was a bit odd) though if they really are as gimped as I've heard I may drop it. |
| #2fauxgamiJul 02, 2008 11:26:54 | looks good. more powerfull, maybe, more versitile, yes! but i think that's really the idea right? wording was a little scetchy, but that's okay, i got the intent. i will use your rules in the game i run. they seem pretty solid. and will encourage some more multiclassing. as i have two defenders and no leaders. (with a wiz and a rog) *tips hat* |
| #3saoirseJul 02, 2008 17:14:13 | I think these are fairly solid feats. My only recommendation is to have them staggered, so that you need the Dual-Class feat in order to take Novice Power, but you must take Novice Power before you can take Apprentice Power. Doing so may scale the power down a little bit and put it more in line with the rest of the tiered feats. Instead, another consideration would be to add level restrictions to the Novice, Apprentice, and Adept Power feats. That way you can keep the idea that you only need the Dual-Class feat, but it does balance the feats a bit more (Example: Novice at 1, Apprentice at 5, Adept at 10, and then Master at 12) |
| #4gufnorkJul 03, 2008 15:33:35 | I would set a few class feats off limits, they're really not meant to be balanced feats in themselves. Atleast limit Shadow Walk, seems a weee bit too good in the hands of a Rogue. |
| #5darth_singeJul 04, 2008 13:33:47 | if i were you, instead of doing what you did, just pull out most of the stops. if someone wants to multiclass, allow them to take the as written mutliclass feat. immediately allow them to retrain one of thier powers for another power of the second class (ie throw out the power swap feats). also, if they are at a level where they get a new power, just allow them to get the power from the second class. 4e is simple enough to make this simple, and in all reality most powers of a given level are very similiar in aspect. you can do the same for class features. maybe in lieu of a feat they can select a class feature for the second class. or you could stick with the 4e concept and just make a feat to give you a class feature. anyway, looks good. |
| #6gorditobanditoJul 04, 2008 14:37:57 | I would be careful with straight gaining class features, the whole point of not including them as MC feats was so that an original wizard will always have an edge on an MC wizard. also class features are balanced around their character's ability to accomplish their desired role. I was just posting on another forum about how i think there need to be much more MC feats and i think you're going in the right direction but to be honest, i really like the idea of no matter how many MC feats you take, there are still certain aspects you will always be inferior at. A balanced compromise would be that, since most MC feats grant a an at-will power or a feature as an encounter or daily power, a feat that will move them down a step. (MC healing word becomes 1/encounter, sneak attack becomes 2/encounter, not at-will). feats can easily be balanced by the amount of commitment it requires to take the entire tree, so if you were to do it like this I don'tt hink it would break your game |
| #7darth_singeJul 04, 2008 19:11:38 | that's only worrisome if your worried about maintaining class roles and such. |
| #8jimbJul 04, 2008 20:20:27 | I like the spirit of what you're doing, but I think are some serious balance issues: 1. A rogue who can use Warlock's Curse or Hunter's Quarry at will is going to be doing significantly more damage per round than any character who uses the existing rules. There may also be issues with wizards gaining access to Warlock's Curse. 2. As has already been mentioned, a rogue with Shadow Walk is going to be sneak attacking way too easily. 3. It may be dangerous to let other classes use healing word as often as a cleric can. A party whose fighter and wizard can heal as well as the cleric is going to be pretty unstoppable. 4. Finally, you have to be extremely careful with letting ranged attackers (such as wizards, archer rangers, and lazer clerics) mark opponents. For example, a wizard with Combat Challenge is going to be marking a large number of opponents every time he or she casts an area spell, and these monsters may not even be capable of attacking the wizard on their next turn. |
| #9kuraku256Jul 05, 2008 1:21:27 | I like the response this has gotten, now that I've seen some initial responses I'd like to say that this is really intended to be used for groups of less than four or that are lacking a defender or a leader, but I wanted to see how people thought they stacked up against the standard feats in a normal game. And now for a bunch of responses... looks good. Awesome, please tell me what your players end up doing with this stuff and if you find any big problems with it. I think these are fairly solid feats. My only recommendation is to have them staggered, so that you need the Dual-Class feat in order to take Novice Power, but you must take Novice Power before you can take Apprentice Power. Doing so may scale the power down a little bit and put it more in line with the rest of the tiered feats. I don't really want to make them prereqs for each other to keep it flexible, but yeah level requirements would be good I was just being lazy at that point; probably should make them so that a player can't trade their only in class power for an out of class one. Master Power does have a level requirement being a paragon feat which I thought was the very minimum it should be available since unlike the other three, it's not a power swap feat. Its only cost is the feat itself and its prereqs. I would set a few class feats off limits, they're really not meant to be balanced feats in themselves. Atleast limit Shadow Walk, seems a weee bit too good in the hands of a Rogue. This I'd prefer to just leave up to the DM. As for Shadow Walk it may not be as good as you think since it only gets you concealment which doesn't get you combat advantage, you need total concealment for that, so no sneak attack every turn, and unless I'm missing something no rogue abilities actually rely on concealment. The closest thing I found just now is Hide in Plain Sight which requires you are hidden, but with Shadow Walk everyone still sees you just not very well. Technicalities aside it can still net you an effective +2 to all your defenses as long as you keep moving, which might be even more ridiculous for a defender. I would be careful with straight gaining class features, the whole point of not including them as MC feats was so that an original wizard will always have an edge on an MC wizard. also class features are balanced around their character's ability to accomplish their desired role. I was just posting on another forum about how i think there need to be much more MC feats and i think you're going in the right direction but to be honest, i really like the idea of no matter how many MC feats you take, there are still certain aspects you will always be inferior at. At low levels I think the most dual-class characters will be spreading themselves a bit thin with the 13 ability score required somewhere you probably could have ignored otherwise. This breaks down around paragon tier though where you've built up 10 more ability points to spread around and 13 doesn't really make for a very difficult requirement anymore. I hoping that I can give these feats an appropriate cost since they basically let you make a pseudo-gestalt character at the cost of 6-8 feats depending on how far you go with it. A balanced compromise would be that, since most MC feats grant a an at-will power or a feature as an encounter or daily power, a feat that will move them down a step. (MC healing word becomes 1/encounter, sneak attack becomes 2/encounter, not at-will). feats can easily be balanced by the amount of commitment it requires to take the entire tree, so if you were to do it like this I don'tt hink it would break your game I like this, my only issue is it doesn't really lend itself to a few very generic feats, but I may break down someday and write a whole bunch of class specific feats. I think though that I'd prefer to make the abilities less powerful rather than usable less often. that's only worrisome if your worried about maintaining class roles and such. Yeah, this breaks class roles wide open, and thats partly the point. I can really only hope that most people that use this stuff are doing it to make their character's mechanics fit their character's flavor text. But honestly I think power gamers will be the most interested in this stuff. I like the spirit of what you're doing, but I think are some serious balance issues: 1. Going dual-class can definitely make you a better damage dealer. Especially when you are talking about solo encounters. It might be kept in check a bit by the fact that most of these abilities require a minor action to get going, and the classes seem to be able to make good use of all their actions already. Ultimately though this type of stuff worries me the least of the possibilities these feats open up. 2. Talked about this one in depth a few quotes up. 3. This and Lay on Hands are a definite worry. Maybe the limit on healing surges would keep this from being ridiculous, but I doubt it. Probably just have to metagame this kind of party and have monsters catch them while they're sleeping and out of healing surges or maybe move milestones back to every 3 encounters to try and keep the party going for longer. Best solution though is most likely to just tell the third or fourth player wanting to be a healer that the position's taken. Not such a bad thing though if you've got no leader since I think it would take about three character's with Healing Word to do as much healing a real Cleric or Warlord could do by themselves. 4. Well done sir, this is ludicrous. The only way to fix this I think is to just say no, or limit Combat Challenge to melee attacks, which it was probably intended for in the first place, but that kind of limit wasn't needed since fighters don't get any ranged powers I can think of much less ranged area powers. This is the problem with trying to retrofit this kind of system to a game that was never intended for it without rewriting half the PHB. Also, somewhat off topic, I just noticed the Fighter Weapon Talent as written applies to ranged weapons. Whew... I need to do this more often so I don't end up quoting the whole thread. I really appreciate the feedback this has got and I hope to get some more especially from anyone that playtests this stuff, since it looks like the game I'm going to run isn't going to get going for a couple of weeks and I plan to run without house rules till I get comfortable and familiar with the system. |
| #10jimbJul 05, 2008 2:30:02 | As for Shadow Walk it may not be as good as you think since it only gets you concealment which doesn't get you combat advantage, you need total concealment for that, so no sneak attack every turn, and unless I'm missing something no rogue abilities actually rely on concealment. Concealment lets you roll Stealth to be hidden, which grants combat advantage. (See the dozens of threads on the Striker board for information on the huge nightmare that is 4th-edition Stealth.) The only way to fix this I think is to just say no, or limit Combat Challenge to melee attacks, which it was probably intended for in the first place. Limiting Combat Challenge (and possibly also Divine Challenge) to melee attacks ought to work. Going dual-class can definitely make you a better damage dealer. Especially when you are talking about solo encounters.... Ultimately though this type of stuff worries me the least of the possibilities these feats open up. In general, I've noticed that you seem to be happy making the PC's more powerful as long as the game still basically works. Indeed, the feats you've proposed seem so powerful that a power-gamer in your next campaign would have to be crazy not to multiclass. From what I've gathered, you would be perfectly ok with that. Assuming that's true, maybe you should be thinking more in terms of rules for playing gestalt characters in 4th edition. Instead of requiring a chain of feats, just let everyone pick two classes for which they get all of the class features. You'll have to make the same houserules regarding Combat Challenge and such, but your players won't need to spend all their feat choices on multiclassing, and they will be able to fully occupy both character classes starting at 1st level. |
| #11truityJul 05, 2008 2:57:40 | Master Power seems useless to me, since you can swap one of your base class at-will powers for one at-wil power from cross class. Strong multiclassing is intended for paragorn tier, i prefer to use retrain power options, thats sufficient for cross classing IMO. Dual class feats... well it can break some balance in the game... my advice is to either be harsher on prerequisites, or to combine 2 classes to get a custom basic class that fit the role you want (time consuming work here...) |
| #12vonklaudeJul 05, 2008 11:45:58 | I've found my self a bit disappointed with the multi-classing feats in 4th edition. Agreed. May I suggest looking at ways to reduce the number of feats involved? Seems to me two feats could do all the work necessary. Also a feat that gives you powers, rather than exchanges them, is far stronger than most other existing feats. Adding more pre-reqs is not the best way to balance that, because Races or Classes who easily meet those reqs trump those who can't. -vk |