I have a player who wants to level his mount alongside him. I dont actually have a problem with this or anything. In fact, the process is pretty easy to do. What I want to know is if anyone is actually using the 'suggested' rules under the Mounted Combat section for mounts taking thier own set of actions (and thus earning a share of XP in a fight), and, if so, whether or not they allow two entirely independent sets of actions or if they only allow certain combinations, and so on.
In short, the Mounted Combat section is way too vague for what my player wants to do, and I want to know if anybody has any House Rules they use, or any thoughts in general on how to go about doing something like this.
Edit 1/22/09: Current Rules
Current Rules:
Mounts
Size: Your mount must be larger than you.
Willing: You can use a creature as a mount only if it is willing.
Saddles: The rules assume that you ride a creature with a saddle. If you lack a saddle, you take a -2 penalty to attack rolls, AC, and reflex while mounted. If your creature has special movement types, it requires a specially crafted saddle to compensate (add 100g to the cost)
Mounted Combat Feat: Anyone can simply ride a mount, or ride one into battle if it is trained for such. However, possessing the Mounted Combat feat allows the rider to access any special mount related abilities their mount might possess. In addition, the mount can make any Athletics. Acrobatics, or Stealth checks using your base skill check bonus rather than its own if yours is better.
[u]Mount and Rider[/u]
Space: You and your mount occupy the mount's space. If your precise location is needed, you choose which space you actually occupy.
Targeting: Targeted attacks can target you or your mount as the attack chooses. A close attack, area attack, or a terrain effect affects both of you if it includes either of you.
Opportunity Attacks: If you mount's movement provokes an opportunity attack, the attacker chooses to target either you or your mount. Otherwise, the attacker targets the one that provoked the attack.
Forced Movement: If an attack that forces movement targets you but not your mount, you can choose for the mount to also be affected. Otherwise, you can be pushed off your mount.
Mounts in Combat
Mounting and Dismounting: Mounting ot dismounting a creature is a move action. If you mount or dismount in the same round that you mount moves, you must perform an Acrobatics check.
Initiative: You and your mount act on the same initiative count.
Actions: You and your mount take seperate actions in combat. The mount acts on its own however, unless the rider spends a move action to command the mount each round.
Movement: Powers belonging to the rider that allow the rider to Teleport, Shift, or otherwise move do not apply to the mount unless you have an appropriate feat. The exception for this rule is charge attacks – see below. Movement powers belonging to the mount may be applied to the rider.
Charge Attacks: When your mount charges, you can only make a basic melee attack as if you were the one initiating the charge. You and your mount may still use any charging powers as normal.
Squeezing: If your mount squeezes, it and you both take the associated penalties.
Knocked Prone: An attack that knocks your mount prone forces you to dismount. If an attack knocks you prone, attempt an immediate saving throw to avoid being dismounted. If it succeeds, you stay in the saddly and are not knocked prone.
Mounts in Enclosed Spaces: Mounts native to outdoor areas generally dont like being cramped indoors, and take a -2 penalty to attacks and defenses if they think they are in a confined area (Consider this an area at least 50ft in every direction). Mounts native to subterranean areas or that make their lairs underground don't take this penalty.
Experience: Normal mounts count as a half-share of experience for the purpose of the experience pool the DM draws on when building encounters. Elite mounts count as a full share of experience. Mounts levels when the rider does, following the rules of monster customization.
Healing Surges: Mounts have 2 healing surges. If the rider is mounted or adjacent to the mount, then he can spend a healing surge in place of the mount. During a short rest, a rider can transfer up to two of his own healing surges to the mount, up to the mount's maximum.
Mounts
Size: Your mount must be larger than you.
Willing: You can use a creature as a mount only if it is willing.
Saddles: The rules assume that you ride a creature with a saddle. If you lack a saddle, you take a -2 penalty to attack rolls, AC, and reflex while mounted. If your creature has special movement types, it requires a specially crafted saddle to compensate (add 100g to the cost)
Mounted Combat Feat: Anyone can simply ride a mount, or ride one into battle if it is trained for such. However, possessing the Mounted Combat feat allows the rider to access any special mount related abilities their mount might possess. In addition, the mount can make any Athletics. Acrobatics, or Stealth checks using your base skill check bonus rather than its own if yours is better.
[u]Mount and Rider[/u]
Space: You and your mount occupy the mount's space. If your precise location is needed, you choose which space you actually occupy.
Targeting: Targeted attacks can target you or your mount as the attack chooses. A close attack, area attack, or a terrain effect affects both of you if it includes either of you.
Opportunity Attacks: If you mount's movement provokes an opportunity attack, the attacker chooses to target either you or your mount. Otherwise, the attacker targets the one that provoked the attack.
Forced Movement: If an attack that forces movement targets you but not your mount, you can choose for the mount to also be affected. Otherwise, you can be pushed off your mount.
Mounts in Combat
Mounting and Dismounting: Mounting ot dismounting a creature is a move action. If you mount or dismount in the same round that you mount moves, you must perform an Acrobatics check.
Initiative: You and your mount act on the same initiative count.
Actions: You and your mount take seperate actions in combat. The mount acts on its own however, unless the rider spends a move action to command the mount each round.
Movement: Powers belonging to the rider that allow the rider to Teleport, Shift, or otherwise move do not apply to the mount unless you have an appropriate feat. The exception for this rule is charge attacks – see below. Movement powers belonging to the mount may be applied to the rider.
Charge Attacks: When your mount charges, you can only make a basic melee attack as if you were the one initiating the charge. You and your mount may still use any charging powers as normal.
Squeezing: If your mount squeezes, it and you both take the associated penalties.
Knocked Prone: An attack that knocks your mount prone forces you to dismount. If an attack knocks you prone, attempt an immediate saving throw to avoid being dismounted. If it succeeds, you stay in the saddly and are not knocked prone.
Mounts in Enclosed Spaces: Mounts native to outdoor areas generally dont like being cramped indoors, and take a -2 penalty to attacks and defenses if they think they are in a confined area (Consider this an area at least 50ft in every direction). Mounts native to subterranean areas or that make their lairs underground don't take this penalty.
Experience: Normal mounts count as a half-share of experience for the purpose of the experience pool the DM draws on when building encounters. Elite mounts count as a full share of experience. Mounts levels when the rider does, following the rules of monster customization.
Healing Surges: Mounts have 2 healing surges. If the rider is mounted or adjacent to the mount, then he can spend a healing surge in place of the mount. During a short rest, a rider can transfer up to two of his own healing surges to the mount, up to the mount's maximum.
If so this simplifis your problem a ton.
If not, use that as a base to compare to.
Can you convince the player to remake their character as a beastmaster ranger?
If so this simplifis your problem a ton.
If not, use that as a base to compare to.
I disagree, the problem isn't that simple. All of the beastmaster ranger companions are medium sized for a reason, they aren't supposed to be mounts.
Personally I'd allow the character no more than an extra standard action that the mount has to use. I wouldn't give another full set of actions, it'd allow the player to get away with too much I think but I've not made much use of mounts myself so I don't know.
Limiting the mount to having a standard action of its own isnt such a bad idea neccessarily - it'd give it an extra attack, but still require the rider to use his own move actions to control the mount. That might limit things to a respectable amount, while still providing a decent boost to combat ability.
I'll keep that one in mind, but I'd certainly like to hear any other suggestions people might be interested in giving.
1) the mount gets one standard action (see #3)
2) the rider and the mount share their move action
3) it takes a minor action to command your mount to attack.
4) divide the experience as if there was one more party member.
5) when the rider levels so does the mount; fallow monster customization rules in the DMG.
done and done.
the reason mounts don't normally level is because they are treated as item, using your move, minor, and standard actions; making it so that a mount can level makes it a PC or NPC that helps in combat, earning its share of XP.
And before someone tries to poke a hole in my logic... I'm looking at you
the beastmaster shares his actions with his pet and has powers that allow both of them to attack so in mechanics terms its a item that eats and breaths just like a mount, but it is a class feature so it levels up with the character.
Oh, another question - how should I treat movement powers? Like things that allow the rider to shift, teleport, etc? I know theres the part about when forced movement effects that apply to the rider but not to the mount, the rider can choose to have the mount effected. Would it be a logical extention of this rule to say that if a movement power would effect the rider, the rider can have it effect the mount?
That actually sounds pretty reasonable, though I'm not so sure about using up a minor action to command it - it seems more like the move action to get the mount to move should be part of that, maybe.
Oh, another question - how should I treat movement powers? Like things that allow the rider to shift, teleport, etc?
if you want to make it a move action, there is no reason why you can't if you think it will bring better balance to your game. my theory was that the mount was more of a PC (therefore the XP "Drain").
I would not allow shifting powers to transfer over, PC races can because they are more flexible more agile being able to roll and duck and weave to get around attacks, a horse just does not have that degree of movement, especially with somthing on its back, unless you like having your spine broken.
Teleporting should not be allowed unless the rider wants to get off his horse quickly, it takes "mounted combat" and a nightmare to teleport with your mount, so sorry fey warlocks no cheap mount teleportation.
but that's just my opinion.
Teleporting should not be allowed unless the rider wants to get off his horse quickly, it takes "mounted combat" and a nightmare to teleport with your mount, so sorry fey warlocks no cheap mount teleportation.
Actually, thats just the sort of thing I was thinking of that would be kinda cool imagery-wise: A mounted eladrin warlock fading into mist and reappearing elsewhere, zooming about the battlefield on a fey mount.
But, that does bring up a valid point - it might be worth it to require a feat of some sort to be able to do that sort of thing - I.e. using teleports with a mount.
I do think I agree on your reasoning behind why mounts shouldnt be allowed to shift along with shift powers and such; it makes sense logically to disallow, and our group does tend to hold common sense in higher regard to mechanic - so if I can give a good solid reason to them about why I wont let them do something, they'll accept and move on.
Actually, thats just the sort of thing I was thinking of that would be kinda cool imagery-wise: A mounted eladrin warlock fading into mist and reappearing elsewhere, zooming about the battlefield on a fey mount.
But, that does bring up a valid point - it might be worth it to require a feat of some sort to be able to do that sort of thing - I.e. using teleports with a mount.
Try this homebrewed feat
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Fey Mount Training
Prerequisite: mounted combat, a Power with the Teleport Keyword or fey pact.
benefit: when you teleport you may end in the same square as a willing mount and mount it as a free action. also if you are on a mount and you use a power that has the teleport keyword your mount may travel with you.
Special: the class feature of misty step (the fey pact boon) is considerd to have the teleport keyword.
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Ok it was put together quickly but it might work. feel free to change it.
Our experience with the shared actions was very frustrating--anytime a character dismounted, their mount basically became a stationary piece of terrain b/c the PC's didn't want to waste their actions moving the mounts. The mounts ended up being liabilities b/c they were getting in the way, and they hardly contributed to the encounter at all. By the end of it, the PC's all hated their mounts.
Giving the mounts their own set of actions resulted in more fun. The combat was dynamic, and the players valued their mounts as capable combatants (and flankers!). I loved it b/c having full-featured mounts meant I could inflate my XP budget for the battle, which made for a large, epic battle. However, giving both the mount and rider standard actions resulted in some weirdness--for instance, a PC 16 squares away from an enemy could have his mount move, then charge, and then the PC could still use a power of his choice (rather than having to settle for a basic attack). Also, the combat took a long time to run with so many extra pieces on the board.
However, my advice in general would be to forgo full-featured mounts, except in circumstances when the DM really wants a "battle royale." Instead, I would have PCs share a single set of actions with their mounts while mounted, and if they dismount, give the mount its own move action. This gets around the problem of mounts becoming terrain features and allows them to be somewhat useful tactically (to set up flanks or make the occasional opportunistic attack if the PC just doesn't have any good options of his own) without necessitating the inflation of the XP pool to account for doubling the number of attacks per round the party can pump out. Also, I allow my players to mount/dismount as a move, rather than standard, action, b/c no one wants to give up an attack just to get on or off their horse, so either everyone stays glued to the saddle or, if they get off, they never re-mount. Having to spend a move action is still a cost, but not one the players are unwilling to pay. (Just to clarify, I would not allow the mount their own move on a round when the player (dis)mounts, otherwise the "action cost" for the player is essentially nil. Maybe players could take a "Quickmount" feat to mount/dismount as a minor action--that'd be cool!)
Fey Mount Training
Prerequisite: mounted combat, a Power with the Teleport Keyword or fey pact.
benefit: when you teleport you may end in the same square as a willing mount and mount it as a free action. also if you are on a mount and you use a power that has the teleport keyword your mount may travel with you.
Special: the class feature of misty step (the fey pact boon) is considerd to have the teleport keyword.
Not bad; I like. I'll have to run that by my players, see what they think of the idea.
@ Krancher: Great to hear some feedback from both sides of the issue from the same person :D . While I only have one player (maybe two) who's actually interested in a mount, I can definitely imagine the problems youd run into with players quickly loathing thier mounts because of them getting in the way. Likewise, I can definitely see that if every player had a mount, youd have some pretty huge battles in the making, and while they might be fun every now and again, doing that all the time might get a little frustrating too.
However, in the specific case for my group (which is what house rulings are really all about - doing whats best for your particular game) I only have one player at the moment who even has a mount, without the chance to aquire more for awhile. So the problems of having too much on the board at once won't be an issue. Even once they get out of the area they're in, and they have the ability to acquire mounts, some of them wouldn't want to (The Minotaur flatly refuses to ride anything thats not 3x his size because he would look rediculous)
My game's tomorrow, so I'm thinking about test running it with the following rules (nice thing is, they just leveled, so retraining is an option if they want a feat!) :
1. Mounts recieve thier full share of actions. They act on thier rider's initiative, but they act under the DM's control unless commanded by the rider.
2. Commanding a mount is a move action on behalf of the rider, whether mounted or not. This action governs the mount's whole turn, not just one action.
3. Because mounts get thier full share of actions, they gain XP just as an NPC would, and can gain levels.
4. Movement powers that allow you to Teleport, Shift, or otherwise move do NOT apply to your mount unless you have Fey Mount Training (see above). The exception to this rule is charge attacks - you use the mounts charge action as your charge for the purposes of said powers.
5. Mounting and Dismounting is now a move action. If your mount moves in the same round as you mount dismount, you must make an acrobatics check of an appropriate DC. (We used this rule already actually, to good effect).
Any last minute suggestions here as to any other rules I ought to implement? The general idea here is as follows:
1. Reduce the number of actions a rider could take slightly, without making ordering the mount around a liability.
2. Reduce the amount of possible actions that would lie outside the bounds of common sense while preserving the cinematic flavor of mounted combat.
3. Allow a player who wishes it a chance to level a mount along side his character as a loyal, hardy, companion of sorts.
Any last minute suggestions here as to any other rules I ought to implement? The general idea here is as follows:
1. Reduce the number of actions a rider could take slightly, without making ordering the mount around a liability.
2. Reduce the amount of possible actions that would lie outside the bounds of common sense while preserving the cinematic flavor of mounted combat.
3. Allow a player who wishes it a chance to level a mount along side his character as a loyal, hardy, companion of sorts.
Mounts should have Healing surges, they should have 2 like a beastmaster ranger...BUT if it is mounted the rider can spend a healing surge for it instead, and the mount would gain HP as if it had spend a healing surge.
A player may transfer up to a maximum of 2 healing surges during a short rest. a mount cannot go above 2 healing surges that is its MAX.
this rule would allow you to heal a mount, and make it so that it is sorta balanced since your are allowing it to take a full turn as a move action (not the way I would go, but if it works for you)
This is just me being evil, but for mounts with abilities like the Giant Riding lizard that gets extra attacks when ever the rider attacks. you should limit it so those abilities can only activate 2 times per round and looses its standard action if both attacks hit. I would limit its Damage out put to 4D6+10 per round and it would give them another chance if they missed with their free attacks to get more damage.
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This is why...
A Two-Weapon fighter or Ranger uses dual strike, that has the line 2 attacks, so the lizard (if you met the requirements) would get 2 attacks too, spend a action point and you can get 4 attacks for you and 4 attacks from the mount, then the mount can attack under your rules... there is something wrong when someone can do 4D10+10D6+25 just using AT-WILLS and a action point!!!
My fighter could actually get somewhere in the ballpark of 9D10+18D6+125 (total damage, not on all on one target)with ONE daily if he got surrounded At LEVEL 6; most epic characters don't do that much Damage in one round.
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but if you want to keep it the way its stated, feel free, but you are going to have a llzard brigade because they are the best mounts when used properly.
OK the last one and I will stop hounding you.
when a mount has the special moment "Climb" the rider must purchase a special saddle or else risk falling off when the mount starts climbing on the ceiling. 100 gold is the standard for that.
Anyway, I think rangers are so OP anyway, WotC did a terrible job balancing them compared to other classes imo. But thats just an opinion - Cant say I have any numbers back it up, and thats not a discussion I wanna get into, lol.
Anyway, those are really good suggestions, actually - I'll toss those in too.
The Mounted Combat feat also gives training in the skill Ride(dex). Characters without the feat use Dex or Cha modifier.
Riding without a saddle(DC 25): The character makes a single roll to avoid the penalties of mounting without a saddle.
Protect mount: If an attack is made against the mount the character may roll a Ride check and replace the mounts AC with the result. this action expends the characters immediate action for the round.
Using the mount as cover(DC20): The character expends his immediate action in the round to get a +2 to AC. If the character takes a full defense action he can execute this action against a number of attacks equal to his Dex modifier. (the bonus increases by +1 AC for every 5 points the check result surpasses the DC)
Fight with warmount(DC 25): The character may spend a minor action to direct his mount into making a melee basic attack, expending the mount standard action for the round.
Soften Fall (DC20): If the character falls of a mount he takes 1d6 damage, this damage can be denied with this free action. If the character falls off in movement the damage is multiplied by every square of movement of the mount during the round. A successful Ride check halves the damage. (DC25 for Acrobatics)
Jump(DC20): The character may direct his mount to Jump an obstacle or terrain following the rules for athletics. With the mounted combat feat the mount is considered trained.
Control mount in combat(DC25+): A mount that isnt trained to behave in combat situations (skill challenge complexity 12 with 1 roll per week) requires a Ride check DC25 per round to behave. Otherwise the character must spend his own actions to allow the mount to take its actions. Furthermore if the mount takes damage, the character must re-roll this action to avoid having to make a save in order to not fall off. Every time the mount takes damage the DC of this action is increased by +5 for the rest of the Encounter.
Quick Mount(DC20): A Ride check (or Acrobatics DC25) allows the character to use a Move Action to mount. DC+10 allows it with a Minor Action.
OBS: As you guys can see i merely adapted the 3e rules, although with these DCs Mounted combat seems more like a Paragon activity i suppose.
* The PC and mount share one set of actions.
* Typically, the mount takes the move action (using its speed).
* Typically, the PC takes the standard action (attacking). The PC probably also takes the minor action, in that few mounts have a use for it.
* Forced movement affects both the mount and rider.
* A rider can only be separated from his mount by being "dismounted" first (typically by an effect that knocks the rider prone, after failing a saving throw to avoid falling from the mount).
* If a typical non-subterranean mount is used for mounted combat in a contained space (under 50' square), attacks suffer -2 penalty.
Of course, there are issues not covered by those rules. I'd suggest keeping within the spirit rather than inventing a whole new system. If mounts are more like creatures rather than Ranger Beasts or PCs, don't bother giving them healing surges--if they survive an encounter, they are fully healed after a short rest. If you want a rider to get extra benefits for a mount, like a special attack, consider making it a feat. Of course, the AV book messed with this a bit by creating new mounts that have some pretty broken powers (the previously mentioned Giant Lizard being the worst offender). Fortunately, I run campaigns where heroes ride horses and never get Warcrafty flying hippogriffs and such. If I were to invest energy in mounted combat, it would be in expanding reasonable mounts that offer reasonable benefits (like defense bonuses, potentially for mounted archery, ride by attack, etc.) activated by reasonable feats.
Amusingly, they ended up having to ditch the mount later, but that was a matter of ending up in a situation where the Rage Drake couldnt proceed easilly to where the party wanted to go. Though who knows, they might return for it later, if it hasnt wandered off by then or been eaten by something bigger.
Once I figure out how to hide parts of a post, I'll post the current Mounted Combat rules I'm using at the top of this thread.