I have noticed an alarming change in recent modules, so I thought I'd see what other folk thought about it.
The issue is the predilection for many of the newer modules to have skill challenges where you have to impress the random NPCs as to WHY you should go risk YOUR lives for them, etc.
This works occasionally, but there have even been one or two modules where the FIRST encounter has been this sort of challenge, and it really throws the PCs out, and gives them little motivation to do so. This is not contained to any one module, but it seems that skill challenges are being relegated from a method of allowing PCs to use skills to achieve logical goals that progress their mission, to being an arbitrary 'impress NPC X' encounter.
Any body else think this is something we should avoid/has been happening too much? There are times when this is warranted, but the frequency in which is it occurring is starting to draw the ire of our local games day group.
Many of these encounters could be made to be less offensive/repetitive with only minimal thought. It seems mod writers are arbitrarily throwing these in to satisfy XP or encounter design requirements.
Care to provide a couple of examples? I know of one (DRAG1-4), but the goal of that skill challenge goes beyond garnering respect and it has a purpose for the story.
Core 1-9: Not only is the plot hook a little suspect, but the second encounter has this sort of irritating challenge.
Core 1-14: This is particularly frustrating as the FIRST Paragon tier module, and the third in a line of other mods, where the PCs have ideally ALREADY proven their worth and commitment - and yet they have to justify their presence from the onset.
These are a 'couple' of mods that do this very thing -> Drag1-4 is another example of course. (Which again, largely due to what happened in these two core mods, drew a sigh from the players, even if it made PLOT sense)
I suggest keeping an eye on the trend, it may just be a sad coincidence that you hit 3 mods close together that all used that same element.
That said by Paragon important folk are supposed to be starting to ask after you, not have you chasing their skirts, so the people you are supposed to impress better be seriously important.
I have not played, DMed or read any of those 3 adventures as yet. Maybe just a case of "great minds think alike" and unfortunate timing of playing them close together.
The issue is the predilection for many of the newer modules to have skill challenges where you have to impress the random NPCs as to WHY you should go risk YOUR lives for them, etc.
I don't know about the other adventures, but in DRAG1-4 it is not a random and the whole problem is that you cannot let that NPC (who is not the PCs' employer) know you are there to protect him personally. In fact, the whole skill challenge is to bring home the fact that the Shou have a bit of a complicated honor code that at times can get in the way of common sense. Also, the PCs are one group of guards among many. You are still at a position to protect the caravan as a whole.
I get a feeling that convention play can cause some problems in regards to story variation. At a big convention you tend to play a lot of adventures on a row and all of those take up 4 hours. At its heart there are really not all that many different types of hooks, plots and themes. So chances are you see things repeating. In a home campaign you are less likely to realize that fact since adventures can take weeks to finish and if the DM switchs through the various hooks you will still get only one hook/plot/theme per tier. LFR is going to be more fun when you accept this aspect as being part of the 4-hour adventure limitation. Otherwise, it is probably best be careful about selecting adventures (as far as that is possible). I mean, play ADAP1-1, TYMA1-1, IMPI1-1 and AKAN1-1 in a row at a single convention and you might think hexers pretty prevelent. Had you played CORE1-1, LURU1-1 and SPEC1-1 and you would not know what people were talking about (x-bow turrets on the other hand
).Core 1-14: This is particularly frustrating as the FIRST Paragon tier module, and the third in a line of other mods, where the PCs have ideally ALREADY proven their worth and commitment - and yet they have to justify their presence from the onset.
I think CORE1-14 is the worst offender in the "prove yourselves, yet again" type of skill challenges - especially in a series. Do characters need to prove themselves in paragon tier? I thnk the practice of "proving yourself" is fine in heroic tier as long as it makes sense. But, I am not sure it's necessary or important for a paragon tier adventure in a living campaign where there is often a time crunch.
I liked DMing CORE1-14 and I think it's a fine adventure. I am just adding my two cents to this little debate, as I think it's a good discussion.
Personally, CORE1-14 was one of those situations where I was glad I was playing my motivated and personable character, at a convention, because at least one of my characters would have wanted to go 'You serious? Screw you.' and looked for a different adventure.
Not a happy way to start the paragon tier. Shame cause I had a ton of fun with the rest of the module.
I recently ran some payers through BALD1-3 'Tome of the Traitor'. Much of the party had played CORM 1-4 and had earned their title and the others had similar past experience.
So I decided to take a slightly different approach with the NPCs. I figured that all the major NPCs were movers and shakers. They are important actors in the Realms. Big things don't just happen without their notice. So, without exception, when the PCs met the NPCs I assumed that not only were the NPCs aware of the players but also had a level of professional respect.
It made my players feel like complete bad-ass big swagger heroes. They weren't some random heroes that got plucked off the street. They were known professionals that had earned a reputation. Perhaps not generally known names yet, but known to those who matter.
It's a track that I plan to take in future games. Perhaps not in some back woods village, but anything that involves people of power. Even at conventions and in groups where people are not as familiar with each other a quick glance at the play history would provide enough info to make it personal.
The issue is the predilection for many of the newer modules to have skill challenges where you have to impress the random NPCs as to WHY you should go risk YOUR lives for them, etc.
Yes, this is something that sometimes irks my chars too. My avenger just walked away in DALE 1-1 when he should have tried to impress NPCs to get an additional reward. For him he has to impress Tempus and maybe his exarchs and emissaries but certainly no mortal fools.
Annother thing I hope is that LFR NPCs will eventually stop leveling and not do the Oblivion-thing where all NPCs and enemies you meet will level together with your PC so that it makes no difference whether you fight NPC X at level 1 or level 20 as they'll always be exactly as strong as you.
If my PC ever becomes the embodiment of Tempus' wrath (aka favored soul / punisher of Tempus) I don't want to experience the king of Cormyr suddenly being a level 24 NPC with level 23 elite guards just because it's an epic mod (not that I would ever attack him just to find out, it's a matter of principle).
If a demigod deems them worthy to walk among them, they should be impressed and not casually mentioning that they're actually all demigods themselves.
This is something that some of the mod authors haven't really understood yet.
In 3.5 when you were low level you were a nobody. You were a fairly unknown soldier/priest/arcanist who was just starting his adventuring career. You didn't have super powers and you were likely no better than the town guards.
4e has abandoned that part of the progression (for better or for worse). 4e starts out assuming you are a bad ass superhero. When you interact with other characters in the world they are either beneath you (unstatted), capable of instantly slaying you on a whim (also unstatted), or appropriate opponents you were meant to fight (normal monsters). There is no more advancing through the ranks or making a name for yourself. You start out a superhero and godhood is the natural next step.
Actually in 4E, your status is all driven by the tier. In Heroic Tier, the PC still has to prove himself or herself, even to locals. You may be a hero to a local village, but still nobody in the kingdom. By the time you reach Paragon Tier, your reputation should have spread to enough areas, that you now have a rep in the kingdom. You are more likely to be sought out for a task, rather than respond to a notice on a board. By Epic Tier, you will be dealing with forces that are larger than any one realm. That is the paradigm the Writing Directors were told to use, so if someone left the path, well, bad on them.
Not to say there cannot be a story reason for a specific adventure to ask the PCs to show off in some way.
Keith
(Contains many story SPOILERS for CORE 1-14)
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I think CORE1-14 is the worst offender in the "prove yourselves, yet again" type of skill challenges - especially in a series. Do characters need to prove themselves in paragon tier? I thnk the practice of "proving yourself" is fine in heroic tier as long as it makes sense. But, I am not sure it's necessary or important for a paragon tier adventure in a living campaign where there is often a time crunch.
I liked DMing CORE1-14 and I think it's a fine adventure. I am just adding my two cents to this little debate, as I think it's a good discussion.
As the author, I want to let the other thread on CORE1-14 go on for a while before I gave any insights into my thinking. Having made many a comment on what other people wrote, it is only fair for me to encourage all the feedback I can get.
Having said that, I do want to comment on where CORE1-14 is coming from, and why the adventure begins this way.
In previous adventures in the story arc, the heroes work in Thesk and in a very small border area between Rashemen and Thay. They really do not encounter the Rashemi culture in any way outside of meeting one NPC (Veruud). Both I and the admin that reviewed CORE1-14 like the Rashemi culture. I/we wanted to take the opportunity to show some of the very different cultures in the Realms. It seemed to fit the series well, since in the first adventure you end up in the strange situation of being in a town where orcs and humans coexisted (in Thesk). In this adventure you meet the very different culture of Rashemen. Amongst many aspects, the Rashemi are ruled by women who are witches and they distrust other cultures, even their neighbors. The Wychlaran (witches) are mysterious, strange, mistrustful, etc.
In this story, you would have gone on your way doing other heroic things, but for one man. Veruud, convinced from the previous adventure that you are true heroes, then has visions of your greatness and of your future role/destiny related to the Radiance. He increasingly begs his superiors (the Wychlaran) to trust him. But, he is a male, with all the cultural stigma that carries, and he is proposing that outsiders (perish the thought!) could be of help. With great reluctance, the Wychlaran agree to let him bring the Heroes before him, but it is by the slimmest of margins and even Veruud knows that the witches will likely vote against his request (as they do).
Enter the heroes. You valiantly travel to the witches, and are immediately rejected. Though one NPC (the lead, Ioyna) shows some support and another one can even show romantic interest, the witches vote the heroes down for all the previously stated cultural reasons. Here are the kinds of things they are thinking: "You did something in Thesk - big deal, not our country." "You are brave heroes in the East Rift, great, met a lot of heroes in my day and the East Rift is nothing like our land." "You had something to do with Sibbya - great, you don't even know we have lots of Sibbya's..."
See, the reaction would be very different if the heroes were in Phsant, but they aren't. Those that do understand and know about the heroes are all hugely supporting them (Veruud, Sibya, Bhral, Fontin). But the witches are blinded by their cultural heritage and shoot you down. As, I think, they should.
Then you get to prove yourself. Here, there is a combination of cultural and story think (skills applicable are those that will prove to the witches that you understand the issues pertinant to your making it through the tough environment and knowing how to handle the Radiance) and a combination of mod-think, where I wanted to give many different PCs the opportunity to showcase their skills and speak to their talents. The first encounter is in many ways meant to let PCs speak about their accomplishments in the series and their power and knowledge. When I've run this, it has been a pretty easy skill challenge where the players learned about the culture, had some fun with the different witches, and proved themselves to be the heroes they need.
This isn't a particularly difficult challenge in large part because the Wychlaran are up against the wall. They don't have heroes here that can depart at once for the next step, and they themselves are needed here securing and protecting the other vessels. Thus, when you show that you have the proper understanding and capabilities, they are pleased to assist you.
So, back to the question. "Do paragon characters need to prove themselves?" The answer is, it depends. It depends on where you have proven yourself and to whom, what sort of titles you have, and so on. At the time I was writing this, there were no other Thayan adventures and no story awards related to Thay or Rashemen outside of the ones in the story arc. Thus, it really did seem to me, given the culture, that you had to prove themselves. Will this always be the case in Paragon? No. In fact, if you think of 90% of adventures, you strangely don't have to prove yourself. "Hey, these guys have weapons... maybe they can help me..." Don't be surprised if every now and then your Paragon hero still needs to prove their worth. After all, this isn't a heroic challenge, it is a challenge for paragons! Sure, you have super-hero powers... the ruler of Thay is basically a demigod, with plenty of Epic threats at his beck and call!
Another logical question is, "does this adventure suitably frame the cultural context and why the PCs have to go through with this?". I think it does, though I'm listening to this discussion and may revise my statement in the end. I certainly tried to do so given the limited space with which to do so. Both in the background and in the encounter itself, there is ample information so the DM can correctly portray that the main issue is that the heroes are outsiders. The FRCG does a fine job of explaining the region. Will this cultural resoning shine at GenCon? Maybe not. But I didn't want to write an adventure that was simple, devoid of culture, or that was only made for GenCon. I wanted the kind of adventure that is complex, culturaly accurate, had interesting NPCs that a DM could have a lot of fun with, and which gave a lot of PCs ways to shine. I also had some other goals, but those apply to other encounters and I will share them later.
I had some really great times running this at GenCon (and prior) and I heard some great feedback. Even the negative feedback is highly valued, because it helps me better understand the player base (as well as make corrections). This is a complex adventure and I always knew it would at times fail because of that. I still thank everyone for their comments and look forward to more!
Teos
In this story, you would have gone on your way doing other heroic things, but for one man. Veruud, convinced from the previous adventure that you are true heroes, then has visions of your greatness and of your future role/destiny related to the Radiance. He increasingly begs his superiors (the Wychlaran) to trust him. But, he is a male, with all the cultural stigma that carries, and he is proposing that outsiders (perish the thought!) could be of help. With great reluctance, the Wychlaran agree to let him bring the Heroes before him, but it is by the slimmest of margins and even Veruud knows that the witches will likely vote against his request (as they do).
Enter the heroes. You valiantly travel to the witches, and are immediately rejected. Though one NPC (the lead, Ioyna) shows some support and another one can even show romantic interest, the witches vote the heroes down for all the previously stated cultural reasons. Here are the kinds of things they are thinking: "You did something in Thesk - big deal, not our country." "You are brave heroes in the East Rift, great, met a lot of heroes in my day and the East Rift is nothing like our land." "You had something to do with Sibbya - great, you don't even know we have lots of Sibbya's..."
Herein lays the problem. There is this huge wealth of story, but it is not imparted to the DM effectively, or to the players - it is contingent on pre-spellplague player knowledge of the Forgotten Realms, and as such it should have been made clear to the PCs on route that they need to deal with such issues when they arrive, then the party could plan, etc. Instead they are thrown into an insulting 'show us why YOU should help US' encounter with little to no warning.
That is irritating.
Here lies the problems with the mod, the supporting information is scant at best. One DM couldn't for the life of him work out WHO the Temple we were going to was even for, which was further stalling attempts to reconcile story with what we were asked to do.
Basically, Heroes may need to prove themselves, but the sudden and non contextually explained manner in which it has occurred, as the FIRST encounter in a the FIRST paragon tier module caused issues. I have no issue with having to impress NPCs, I am just a bit sick of its frequency, and in particular, how arbitrary it is beginning to appear in some modules.
My Pc was very tempted to tell the witches to *expletive* off. They could save their own Radiant vessels if they were so rude upon entrance.
Cultural stigma is one thing, insulting the PCs from the onset does not endear them to your plot hook..
To be honest, the plot hooks in the majority of LFR mods are shaky to downright bollocks. (Core1-9 anyone?) It was frustrating to have the third module in a series, and the paragon module, start that way, as justifiable as it may have been. - It probably would have been ok if it had even been a later encounter.
it is not imparted to the DM effectively, or to the players - it is contingent on pre-spellplague player knowledge of the Forgotten Realms,
Have you read the adventure? Just curious if you are basing your comment about the adventure not communicating well on having actually read the adventure. If you have read it, could you PM me where you would have done things differently? Criticism can help us authors focus on issues, but ultimately constructive criticism is best for our consideration towards future projects.
Separately, I am not aware of anything in the module being contingent on any pre-Spellplague knowledge. It shouldn't even need FRPG of FRCG, though such can be beneficial to DMs or players (as with any adventure that has regional flavor).
I'll go back to lurker mode to let others comment. I'm sorry the module disappointed you!
... Instead [the PCs] are thrown into an insulting 'show us why YOU should help US' encounter with little to no warning.That is irritating.
Yes, it was irritating. My table of players had just finished SPEC1-2 Zhents Ancient Shadows (literally across the Easting Reach and down the banks of the Moonsea away) and leveled into paragon tier from it. They had played CORE1-2 and CORE1-6 and they knew Veruud, Brahl, Sibbya and company. One player told me it felt like Veruud "threw them under the chariot (bus)" because he comes with visions of the PCs and then leads them into a lions den.
I appreciate the need to expose the PCs to the culture of Rashemenm, which is an underused part of the Realms and always has been. But, there might have been a better device than a near hostile skill challenge for paragon tier characters that have marched all over Faerun putting out everyone's fires.
My players did not play the "Do you know who I am" card. But, they were a bit disappointed to reach 11th and 12th-level and then have a bunch of backwards witches go indignant and ungrateful on them. It quickly became a "tap dance" for me to keep the first encounter going and still point to the rest of the otherwise great adventure.
I can totally see the Flaming Fists doing this to some H1 characters, or the people of Dagger Falls doing it to H2s. But, not here in paragon territory.
I'll repeat - I loved CORE1-14 as a whole. Just not sure about the approach taken to "impress" the Wychlaran.
Reactions may vary. I don't recall anyone at our table when we played CORE1-14 being irritated. I saw it as more adapting to their culture. If they feel their problems are unique, then it is reasonable IMHO that they might discount tales of your successes. If they are isolated, they might not hear the tales of your successes.
Keith
Have you read the adventure? Just curious if you are basing your comment about the adventure not communicating well on having actually read the adventure. If you have read it, could you PM me where you would have done things differently? Criticism can help us authors focus on issues, but ultimately constructive criticism is best for our consideration towards future projects.
I always read modules before posting about them, I haven't been on LFR boards for some months now, so I may seem like a random.
I have definitely come across as being more critical than I originally intended, so I'll reign it in now. I just took umbrage at the first encounter - I had a blast with the rest of the module, and despite some aspects I feel are a bit unnecessary in terms of keeping it to a 4 hour slot, I think it is quite good - better then many others. You have to remember that Skill challenges are often poorly executed in many modules, (East1-2 stupid chess game comes to mind) and to cop one from the onset that forced you to justify your 'volunteering to help' was a bit of a slap in the face.
When I have time to give actual constructive criticism, I will PM you for sure, and I hope I haven't discouraged you from future writing.
The purpose of this thread was to discourage/create a discussion on these sorts of skill challenges, and for me to vocalise the growing discontent with them.
My group and I definitely enjoyed the skill challenge (the minotaur fighter got to put his moves on the Wychlaran with an eye for beef). I understand how it was necessary and relevant to force the PCs to experience the closed minded nature of the Rashamen but I agree that it felt very formulaic. Perhaps a bit of dialogue from Veruund explaining the mindset of the witches beforehand for those with bad memories or who otherwise have a hard time following the story would help the players understand the nature of the skill challenge.
I just hope authors of future paragon mods keep this kind of thing in mind in the months to come.
I have to say that when we played this at GenCon, my character, the diplomatic one ... did in fact come close to telling the witches to ... well, witch off.
But I understood it after playing it.
Still, I don't get why folks feel that just because they are playing paragon characters that everyone will be falling over to ask them for help? There will always be those that either don't know who the characters are, don't care who the characters are (at first), may have a very high opinion of themselves (right or wrong), or genuinely be demi-gods and are thus unimpressed with the PCs.
As for one of the other comments about being upset that the threats and NPCs will also all be paragon (or Epic at Epic levels). I'm sure not all of them will be, but even if many of them are, why would that be odd? After all, it isn't the mayor of some podunk little town who is going to want your Paragon characters to defend the kingdom against that dracolich, it's going to be the King. It won't be the shopkeeper who got his shipment stolen asking you to recover it, it will be the leader of the Red Wizard enclave, or a Zhentarim commander (now that would be funny).
Level appropriate will often mean that in fact all the "actors" are level appropriate. And yes, some/a few/many? of the adventures will start off with someone fawning over the PCs at paragon level. Some may start with someone trying to kill them. I will try not to take it too personally. 
When I have time to give actual constructive criticism, I will PM you for sure, and I hope I haven't discouraged you from future writing.
Unless you are making personal attacks, please, do not hesitate to give constructive criticism on these boards. For one thing, they help other DMs running the adventure, but more importantly, they help the authors and adventure reviewers as well.
I'm hoping we won't be chasing down a dozen Epic Level 24 Halfling Minion Rogues in a 21-24!
Sure, there will be some Epic NPCs out there - - I think the concern is about leveling-up "commoners" to maintain the challenge. While "leaders of unruly crowds" step forward and have a few levels at heroic tier, I wouldn't enjoy an adventure where a group of town watch guards are all high-paragon!
Still, I don't get why folks feel that just because they are playing paragon characters that everyone will be falling over to ask them for help?
Well, at what level do the PCs finally get to feel like heros?
I don't really like "low level" gaming for this very reason. I feel like a nobody, a mercenary at best. That's fun for some people I suppose. But I'm looking to do stuff that is inspiring and heroic!
I'm just going to guess... but I bet that people will find it more enjoyable to play LFR if they actually get to feel like heros. There are a couple of scenarios like this, like the ending of MOON1-2 (I think), which I've noticed the players really "respond" to, even the quiet ones.
Maybe the problem is that I've felt like I've been playing a hero all along.
Yeah, sure, some days are more heroic than others ... and some days you get to go to the Ball, a Birthday party or just go beat on a Dragon.
The end of Spec1-2 did probably the best job of making my PC feel truly heroic of any mod I've played so far. I found it an entirely appropriate way to reach Paragon tier. And (almost) worth the slog that was the rest of that adventure!
The Player's Handbook says that, "In the paragon tier, your character is a shining example of heroism, set well apart from the masses."
The Wychlaran skill challenge did not feel like that. It felt more like another low-level job interview from a bunch of indignant broads who didn't have any solution to their own problem. As an intro for a lot of LFR players to paragon, it was a bit of a bummer to be reach this level of play and not respect what the Player's Handbook indicates about surviving this far.
I don't suggest NPCs start falling all over paragon level characters and kiss their butts. But, some respect and a little recognition seems in order to stay true to the spirit of reaching paragon.
I don't suggest NPCs start falling all over paragon level characters and kiss their butts. But, some respect and a little recognition seems in order to stay true to the spirit of reaching paragon.
I'd like to add that I am ok with my PC not being Mr Awesome centre of the universe - I am just not a fan of skill challenge 'Prove to us why we should hire you' stuff, particularly in Paragon as in this particular mod, the fact that the kid etc was alive and that things were the way they were was indicative that we HAD proven ourselves in CORE1-2 and 1-8
I am perfectly ok with 'Skill challenge prove to NPC X why they should listen to your plan' AFTER you have started the mod and are trying to acheive a goal, (e.g: Local lord wants you to convince the King to provide more defence against goblins as part of your job of defending the city against goblins) but at the very beginning of the module it is tiresome, and not endearing to a plot hook, especially if it is not worded well, which the baltant 'F*** off' from the Wytches seemed to be.
On to the CORE1-5 issue, that was not a case of altering rules, it was a case of an Author arbitrarily ignoring rules to give his monsters an advantage. The setup of stuff that affected the PCs more then the monsters for no logical reason was obviously adversarial, and ignored the rules (and common sense) for concealment in smoke (why one party can see through and the other can't is daft). Moreover the author deliberately made the monster's attacks stronger then they were by breaking the rules, actually circumventing 4e damage output per level for monsters in a frustrating way.
My table's response was to pick up the kid and leave the building, and in tables where I have run it I have ignored these rules violations.
On to the CORE1-5 issue, that was not a case of altering rules, it was a case of an Author arbitrarily ignoring rules to give his monsters an advantage. The setup of stuff that affected the PCs more then the monsters for no logical reason was obviously adversarial, and ignored the rules (and common sense) for concealment in smoke (why one party can see through and the other can't is daft). Moreover the author deliberately made the monster's attacks stronger then they were by breaking the rules, actually circumventing 4e damage output per level for monsters in a frustrating way.My table's response was to pick up the kid and leave the building, and in tables where I have run it I have ignored these rules violations.
Why do you arbitrarily assign motivations to people you do not know nor have spoken with?
Have you read my reply to that complaint? Because a DM ruling that the smoke and darkness cause total concealment even when the PCs created their own bright light source is the one ignoring the rules. The adventure itself never mentions anything in this regard (and I reread the encounter just to make sure). To me this sounds like one of my biggest irritants as an adventure author/review: DMs that require me to spell out to the letter the core rules, and to only use game mechanical terms because they place way too much stock on fluff. All the adventure says is that smoke in combination with natural darkness diminishes the dim light in the tavern to complete darkness amongst the rafters. There is no mention of concealment due to the smoke, it is due to the darkness. Nowhere does it say the smoke is anything more then fluff. The creatures have darkvision, and hence are not hindered by the darkness. Besides, it is perfectly logical to have no problems hitting something in the light why you yourself are standing in the dark.
As for the tentacles, no, we did not give the new monster that ability to ignore the damage output rules. We gave them that ability to make them still useful even though they could not fly in this particular encounter. Flight has been part of their difficulty. Of course, it also requires a hit with the standard attack (which deals damage) and then a second attack after a minor action which does not deal damage in itself. Never mind that in monster design rules we could have removed the pull effect and simply let that second attack deal 1d6+4 damage (more then the average damage of the 10 feet fall in this case). I have run that adventure several times, and each time players loved that encounter, and it was never frustrating, let alone life threatening. The players never considered going outside (although the adventure does mention what happens when people do), because they realized they were dealing with flying opponents and the players also knew that outside the fight would be an excercise of frustration of ready actions. Even the PC range attackers would have a hard time due to the night outside.
Since I have not personally seen how the DMs in your area operate, it is very hard for me to see what goes wrong here. From what you post though, I really would like to talk with them and to observe them running their games. Maybe it are the adventures, maybe it are the players, but maybe it is the DM style and in the last case I would love to give them a few pointers on how to run adventures in a way that makes it much less frustrating on the players. If it is the adventures, I want to know how I can improve the text to prevent the weird misunderstandings. If it is the players, then there is very little I can do beyond what I am doing right now.
Why do you arbitrarily assign motivations to people you do not know nor have spoken with?
Have you read my reply to that complaint? Because a DM ruling that the smoke and darkness cause total concealment even when the PCs created their own bright light source is the one ignoring the rules. The adventure itself never mentions anything in this regard (and I reread the encounter just to make sure). To me this sounds like one of my biggest irritants as an adventure author/review: DMs that require me to spell out to the letter the core rules, and to only use game mechanical terms because they place way too much stock on fluff.
This is the problem. Features in an encounter should not be given in figurative language, they ARE rules text, and need to be treated as such.
Rafters: On the map broken white lines depict the rafters. Due to poor lighting and smoke, any creature in the rafters is considered to have total concealment from those on the floor. The same does not hold true in reverse. Light from the ground does not negate this concealment. Light from the rafters, however, does.
Seems to be rules terms rather than imagery to me... Also, the encounter gives no tactics for what happens should you leave the inn. I have read the module, and have run it several times. The DMs and players in my area tend to follow the rules and like to have the mechanical and figurative kept separate. If you have *ever* travelled here/played with Aussie DMs, then you have most likely met the DMs from my area.
Yes I understand you are doing what you can, but it doesn't change the fact that there are random 'play chess skill challenges' in totally incongruous situations out there. Frankly there is enough non game breaking methods of making an encounter unique that you don't have to make stuff up like this. There is only really one way a DM *can* interpret that, and that is why it is annoying, to me - as a DM I shouldn't *have* to DME a mod so that it follows basic rules/makes sense.
That is my biggest irritant.
{[EDIT] - I just read your response in another thread, I think you may have missed the bit in the mod with explicit rules, and so I temper my response due to a changed context}
Yep, I had missed that line about light on the floor not affecting the rafters. Other then that though, my advice on that other post does stand:
Do not stick to the letter of an adventure if that ruins the fun (though players are going to have a lot more fun if they realize that monsters can have base rule breaking attacks just as the PCs have them). DME allows minor changes such as light conditions. When DME cannot cover the potential problem, do not hesitate to post the problem here or mail the people who reviewed the adventure. You might be misinterpretting the situation, others might have sollutions within DME, sometimes it is an honest mistake and sometimes it is indeed the purpose because a large group of others players do like the situation. You will never know without asking. Nor will we ever know how to improve if nobody tells us there is a problem in the first place ;)
"Rafters: On the map broken white lines depict the rafters. Due to poor lighting and smoke, any creature in the rafters is considered to have total concealment from those on the floor. The same does not hold true in reverse. Light from the ground does not negate this concealment. Light from the rafters, however, does"
I'm wondering, personally, if this statement at the end had been meant to describe the situation at the start of the encounter ... that the light in the room at the time, is negated by the smoke. Any light added after the fact is more helpful.
Just a thought.
P.S. - sunrods in 4e are -broken-. That is all.
First of all, I want to say I really like the humanistic flavor of this major quest storyline, coupled with interesting modules. Having tried my hands on writing modules with MYRE1-1 and 1-2, I definitely respect the professional writers for doing as well as they have done.
That said, I think the concept behind the creation of this skill challenge in 1-14 is well thought-up, and I love it. However, is there no better way of showing Rashemen culture via a skill challenge? For example, instead of a face-to-face throw-down, our shaman friend could show us around town, introduce us to the culture and the big names (such as the barbarian lodge like in NWN2:Mask of the Betrayer). So the skill challenge would be for the players to learn about the culture, winning contests, to eventually use that to earn respect from the big man (figuratively speaking). Winning the respect of not some NPC who needs you to save their butts in the first place, but the respect a whole foreign town that you just stepped foot in less than a few hours ago? Now that is a paragon skill challenge.
Also, lore wise, this way we are not banking player’s understanding/enjoyment on the DM’s knowledge of Rashemen or their willingness to go into the lore aspects, because the cultural experience is passively given out thru the skill-challenge itself.