For a convention schedule, would you prefer to have:
1) adventures that are already confirmed as released, guaranteeing that the adventure will occur as planned and that the DM has ample prep time, but some players may have already played it? or
2) adventures that are still scheduled to be released, meaning it'll be among the newest adventures around, but may not be available by the time the con starts?
What other advantages/disadvantages are there for each option?
This thread brought up some (off-topic) points I wanted to see explored:For a convention schedule, would you prefer to have:
1) adventures that are already confirmed as released, guaranteeing that the adventure will occur as planned and that the DM has ample prep time, but some players may have already played it? or
2) adventures that are still scheduled to be released, meaning it'll be among the newest adventures around, but may not be available by the time the con starts?
What other advantages/disadvantages are there for each option?
Hm, I don't know, so I'll talk about what I like and don't like and maybe I'll figure it out by the time I'm done typing.
I like it when GMs have had time to read the module. I don't have a good handle on what that means for most people, because I read awfully quickly. A week in advance? Two weeks?
I like it when I know what I'm going to be playing. I plan sort of carefully, because I like storylines. So for a con, where I'm probably going to be picking up a couple of levels and quite possibly leveling out of a band, being surprised can be bad. It wasn't bad the last time this happened to me, but the possibility is there.
I don't go to cons for the newest stuff; I haven't played most adventures. I can usually find something to play that I haven't seen. I go to cons because I GM a lot locally, and it's my chance to play six to eight slots in one weekend.
So I guess I like it when adventures are rock solid. That'd be #1.
So my answer would be #1. Unlike Thanlis, I don't plan my advancement out much, if at all. I want new modules and experiences.
Again, this is for a convention that I travel to which costs money (hotel counts). Change those parameters and my decision might adjust.
Disclaimer: I organize a weekly game day for my local area (Baltimore,MD-Washington,DC) at a game store.
This thread brought up some (off-topic) points I wanted to see explored:
For a convention schedule, would you prefer to have:
1) adventures that are already confirmed as released, guaranteeing that the adventure will occur as planned and that the DM has ample prep time, but some players may have already played it? or
2) adventures that are still scheduled to be released, meaning it'll be among the newest adventures around, but may not be available by the time the con starts?
I run RPGA floors at cons in Florida, including two large ones Megacon and Metrocon.
In an ideal world I would love #1, the problem is that all the players want things that have just come out to be at the conventions. As much as people say, "only schedule what is certain", the same people are the first to say "I am not coming because I played all those mods."
Its my job to serve the gaming public and assess the risks in putting a module up. I try and hedge the bets but sometimes you just have to drop the mod.
I put my adventures on warhorn.net about 6-8 weeks before the con. Some cons don't do that, I think it give people a chance to plan, and raises attendance. It also makes it certain that at least one module will get cancelled.
If its that big a deal that one module out of the ten you will play is not going to be offered then I am sorry. Big deals for me are a judge gets hit by a car, or has emergency surgery.
I put on a good event, I hand out prizes, heck I even gave out cookies at Florida New Years Con. What more do you want?
As much as people say, "only schedule what is certain", the same people are the first to say "I am not coming because I played all those mods."
Ah. That last point (i.e. con attendance merely in anticipation of a new adventure) is something I had not considered. Excellent point. fwiw: the players I've had at rescheduled tables didn't even seem to notice the adventure change, but that could be atypical, and certainly not what I expected.
If its that big a deal that one module out of the ten you will play is not going to be offered then I am sorry.
We should probably establish some numbers. For me, everytime (i.e. 6 out of 6) I've signed up for an (at the time) unreleased adventure, the adventure was still not released by the time of the con. In the questions in my original post, I was thinking around 50/50 chance, but others may perceive the chances as dramatically different.
We should probably establish some numbers. For me, everytime (i.e. 6 out of 6) I've signed up for an (at the time) unreleased adventure, the adventure was still not released by the time of the con. In the questions in my original post, I was thinking around 50/50 chance, but others may perceive the chances as dramatically different.
To go with my earlier statement, wife & I went to RegulatorCon (our first going-as-players Con experience in quite a while) because of proximity & the Battle Interactive. Of our four slots, the BI took two and two new adventures took the other two. One was AGLA1-7, which wife has been trying to play before she levels out of band. It wasn't available, but we got a different AGLA adventure (2-1, I think). So, it wasn't a total loss. However, if the organizer had tried to give us something we'd played before or could play at home, it would have crossed the line.
We should probably establish some numbers. For me, everytime (i.e. 6 out of 6) I've signed up for an (at the time) unreleased adventure, the adventure was still not released by the time of the con. In the questions in my original post, I was thinking around 50/50 chance, but others may perceive the chances as dramatically different.
I'm curious as to how many of your instances have been within the last 6 months or so, as the RPGA generally didn't seem to have significant issues with meeting their release schedule for LFR before 4Q of 2009.
In other words...scheduling an adventure for a con just after its release has always had an element of risk (even back to the LG days), but, with a few exceptions, until recently, as long as you weren't assuming you'd have a module within a few days after its planned release, you were usually on safe ground. The current situation with the adventure backlog goes far beyond that.
I want to see well-prepped judges that are both experienced and know the mod well. The key to prep is having played the mod themselves - it is hugely easier to run a mod well when you played it first.
From my angle as a DM, I like prepping new adventures because the players aren't metagaming. They are genuinely interested and enjoying the experience. To give them what I would like them to experience, I need slot 0s starting the month before the convention at least, and with the mods in my hand at least 1.5 weeks before the show. That's just about the minimum I can handle to prep a mod around all the other demands on my time, including picking minis, preparing maps, highlighting monsters, thinking about props, etc.
For show organizers, my general thought (not being one), is that I would aim to have many mods that released in the period 2 months prior to the convention date, plus 1-2 early in that month. You would think that this would be sufficient time for slot 0s, plus for changes to the schedule.
My thoughts exactly.
+1
For a convention schedule, would you prefer to have:
1) adventures that are already confirmed as released, guaranteeing that the adventure will occur as planned and that the DM has ample prep time, but some players may have already played it? or
2) adventures that are still scheduled to be released, meaning it'll be among the newest adventures around, but may not be available by the time the con starts?
What other advantages/disadvantages are there for each option?
As a convention organizer and a convention goer, I like to see something new that I can't immediately play at home. We trust our DMs here to prepare well under just about any circumstances.
So, I'd prefer to be able to trust the campaign to deliver on commitments its made so that the newest and latest content can be offered. I'd like to diminish replay at conventions - you can replay at home all you want. Players should not pay for a convention to replay the same old stuff.
I'm starting to see too many conventions of the "Throw it up on Warhorn and hope people volunteer to DM" variety, who do not believe that slot zeroes are necessary because the DMs can always play the module after the fact.
At a recent convention I attended, there were several DMs who, while I'm sure they're very nice people, had no business being anywhere near DMing 4e. One spent an hour being befuddled by the admittedly rather free-form skill challenge before spending the next hour (through the first combat) complaining about how much the module sucked, then hand-waving the final combat and ending early. Another so soft-balled a module (terrain didn't exist, creatures only used basic attacks, the map was set up directly backwards so that the squishy spellcasters were up front and the melee brutes far in the back) that after reading it over later, I contemplated just not counting myself as having played it, before realizing that doing so would have made the next module I played, one level band up, illegal.
At conventions like this, it doesn't matter if the module came out last week or last year, the experience isn't going to be any better, so I'd rather at least get the chance to play something new. If nothing else, that means I won't realize until after the fact what the DM is screwing up.
And, if I've been roped into DMing at a convention like that, I'd like to see the latest releases as well. I can sit at home and take turns DMing with my friends, playing the modules that came out last year. If I'm going to essentially do the exact same thing, but pay a $40 entrance fee for the privilege, there needs to be something offered that I can't necessarily get in my living room.
I'm starting to see too many conventions of the "Throw it up on Warhorn and hope people volunteer to DM" variety, who do not believe that slot zeroes are necessary because the DMs can always play the module after the fact.
Late mod releases don't help, but I think the primary culprit is the demise of a true regional system. With no real premiere and authors and Triads to run it and "pay it forward", someone has to judge it before playing... and usually more than one person. That takes some steam away from organizing slot 0s.
In LG, a regional mod would usually be written by someone roughly in your geographic area. The Triads can't play it, plus the author, for four potential judges. Usually the Triad or author would hand-pick some good players, 1-2 tables, as a playtest. All of them in region. Now you have 14 or so potential judges. Then you run slot 0s, with a few more tables... You end up with a load of prepared judges, even if the Triad don't judge at the con (and they usually did). Premieres were exciting and had big implications for everyone's PC - even if you loved judging, you wanted to slot 0 to follow the storyline. It was a great system for quality judging at cons.
Con organizers need to get back to the slot 0 system to increase the quality of what is offered at conventions. This will in turn drive more return con goers and better revenue for the con. It also makes for happier judges.
Con organizers need to get back to the slot 0 system to increase the quality of what is offered at conventions. This will in turn drive more return con goers and better revenue for the con. It also makes for happier judges.
We still do these as often as we possibly can (which ends up being probably 80% of the time or better).
In addition to prepared judges, it is a way to reward our DMs with extra play opportunities with other competent and enjoyable players; it is usually the most fun and game-savvy people who volunteer to DM, at least around these parts.
There are two tricks that we have adopted locally have been pretty successful.
1) We have one person be the chief DM for adventures from each region (my region is AGLA). That person is in charge of DMing slot zeros for adventures from that region. This divides up the load pretty nicely.
2) We run what we're calling "Judge Nights". These are semi-formally scheduled games, open only to our convention and gameday DMs, of first-run adventures immediately upon their release. This way, when the adventures eventually get slotted in to a gameday or convention, the slot zeros have already been done. We had just started doing these when the well of new adventures dried up, so Judge Night has been on hiatus for a while now. We're looking forward to starting them up again.
This thread brought up some (off-topic) points I wanted to see explored:
For a convention schedule, would you prefer to have:
1) adventures that are already confirmed as released, guaranteeing that the adventure will occur as planned and that the DM has ample prep time, but some players may have already played it? or
2) adventures that are still scheduled to be released, meaning it'll be among the newest adventures around, but may not be available by the time the con starts?
What other advantages/disadvantages are there for each option?
The conventions I'm familiar with normally post their schedule about 5-6 weeks in advance. If you only post adventures that are already released, then by the time the con happens your adventures are all 6 weeks old.
Meanwhile if adventures are being released 1-2 per week, about 9 new adventures will have been released since that schedule was posted. Those will tend to be the 9 adventures people are most interested in playing.
Of course everyone wants a DM to prep. But a couple of weeks is adequate for that.
I agree that Con organizers shouldn't be scheduling adventures that are expected to release within a week of so of their convention. But there ought to be an expectation that one can schedule adventures that are on the release calendar a month before the convention, and even if there is a week or two delay there will still be time to run the zeroes for it.
I'm starting to see too many conventions of the "Throw it up on Warhorn and hope people volunteer to DM" variety, who do not believe that slot zeroes are necessary because the DMs can always play the module after the fact.
Slot zeros are great, I do them, however I often don't get judges to come. It ends up being four people, two who live in the house running a module, and I get one judge prepped.
The reason is that I run regional events and the judges travel there, its hard to get judges to make two trips from Miami to Orlando, or from Cape Canaveral to Tampa.
The biggest selling point of LFR was you can play and run and nobody eats mods anymore.
The ugly truth is that I get like a dozen people that always will run modules, and I schedule 2-3 for each judge to prep. They can't prep more than that. I won't ask a guy to prep 4 modules if I can avoid it, and I have one gal who always insists on, is able to prep, and run 7 modules. Outside that I get judges who will run one module out of the ten, they prep and run.
So 12 judges for 2-3 modes each is 36 modules right? Wrong.
I need three or four tables of the in demand modules and people still demand more. So theres the root cause, enough qualified volunteers.
At a recent convention I attended, there were several DMs who, while I'm sure they're very nice people, had no business being anywhere near DMing 4e.
If it was one of my shows, then you owe me a private email naming names. If you don't, shame on you, I have no way of knowing that people are messing up. I value comments from a knowledgeable, experienced player.
Feedback to the organizer is like gold. Its very, very precious and its valuable. A good SRGM or TO takes his RPGA floor very seriously, like a business.
I give high priority to prep, I give judges modules as early as I can, about two weeks. I have a judge yahoogroup, and I talk to them about prep time at the convention. My expectation is they are professional in demeanor, they tell a good story, they run fairly, and they are ready and prepared. I have told people based on player complaints, "unless you prep better, you can't judge".
That being said, I have to sometimes use judges who get handed a module cold, and thats because I don't get people volunteering, someone gets hurt, or players don't preregister.
And, if I've been roped into DMing at a convention like that, I'd like to see the latest releases as well.
Well I would like to rope you into judging. I give people a free pass as a judge, they judges get good swag and I only ask for 16 hours of labor, about 10-12 hours prep and a slot zero near the con site about two to three weeks ahead. It saves you the $40-50 bucks admission, and you get to serve your hobby.
Late mod releases don't help, but I think the primary culprit is the demise of a true regional system.
I think the replay rules are probably a big factor here.
Most DMs I know started as "judges of opportunity"--maybe the slot zero table had an empty seat and they got pulled into that, or they had already played the module being offered at the gameday or that convention slot somewhere else, so since they didn't have anything else to do, they might as well DM. Now, they'll just play a secondary character.
Moreover, replaying means that you have to deal with people who played at a slot zero, but discover they enjoyed the module/it had good treasure/it was perfect for another character, and want to play it again at the gameday/convention, leading to DMs who only reluctantly do so, or try to bail on you completely and play.
Replaying is great for making sure your "old faithful" core DMs don't get screwed too badly by always being there for you, and make life a lot easier for small gaming groups, but I consider the system a solid and net negative for getting DMs for public games.
Feedback to the organizer is like gold. Its very, very precious and its valuable. A good SRGM or TO takes his RPGA floor very seriously, like a business.
My general practice is that I don't give unsolicited feedback about a convention unless it's something that needs to be dealt with immediately (like a health or legal issue).
It's common for many convention organizer to make some sort of wrap-up post in the same forums they announced the convention, thanking the DMs and saying a few final words about the event. Some organizers ask for feedback; some don't, and I'll generally be guided accordingly.
We all know those kinds of people who find something to complain about after every event, and most players really don't want to be "that guy". If an organizer asks for feedback, I'm happy to give it; if they seem to think everything went perfectly, I'm not really looking to persuade them otherwise, unless there's some issue too big to ignore.
Moreover, replaying means that you have to deal with people who played at a slot zero, but discover they enjoyed the module/it had good treasure/it was perfect for another character, and want to play it again at the gameday/convention, leading to DMs who only reluctantly do so, or try to bail on you completely and play.
Ok Brian, lets not even go there.
I know I am late to the party, but I wanted to say that you should definitely never schedule a mod due to release anywhere near Christmas. It won't be out. This has nothing to do with the current backlog, it is a long standing problem.
Amy
For conventions with on-the-day sign-up, I'd prefer that they set out to run new material if possible, and fall back on existing modules if the new ones don't materialise.
That with the proviso that we run regular private games locally, that can easily plough through much of the material that is available for private play.
I have also noticed that arranging a track where a player can stick with a PC in a level band all day is also a draw for more invested players as well as casual players who can spend a day.
Keith
Just to drag this thread off topic a little, how do folks feel about My Realms adventures at conventions? Here at OwlCon in Houston last year, we ran several loosely connected My Realms adventures that seemed to go over pretty well. I was curious how folks felt about that idea in general--is that something people would like to see more of, or is it a turnoff?
I think it depends 100% on the actual product. I'd probably trust the event enough to go, but if it ended up being several loosely connected TERRIBLE myrealms adventures, I'd not be fussed to go back next time, but if they were even ADEQUATE then I'd be fine to go back again.
Well, we ran maybe a dozen, so odds are some of them weren't so great and others were. Of course, mine were tremendous (-ly adequate). I guess the question is more whether or not people would be willing to take that risk, and if that's something that would be welcomed in favor of published mods. We'll definitely make a note for next year to put up some of the positive reviews from this year, though.
Yet another issue is ensuring that your MYREs are ready to go for the con; you're counting on your DMs to have finished their adventures in time for the con. OTOH, this may not be any different from hoping that new "regular" modules are available by the time of your con.
A final issue is flexibility. If a "regular" module has high demand, you can just add another table by adding another DM (if you have one). If a MYRE turns out to be popular, you can't add another table (at least, not in the same slot).
I think we ended up with about a dozen different mods, spread among different authors. It wouldn't work at a big con, but we only had about ten or twelve tables per slot, and I think there was only one instance where two tables were running the same one simultaneously. The Sat. night slot was nothing but MYREs, while the other slots were mostly regular adventures, with one or two MYRE prequels (or sequels) available in each slot. We tried to keep a good mix.
Getting them all ready to go for the con was quite an effort--several meetings, a few months, and lots of slot zeros. I ended up having to write one with less than a week to go, as we had quite a few Paragon players sign up pretty late, and needed some content for them. It worked, though, and when a couple new mods didn't make their release date, we had stuff that we KNEW people could play because there was no chance they'd played it before.
A couple of them did turn out to be popular--I know I ran one of mine like three times over the weekend. (EDIT: Actually de-leveled it from 4-7 on the fly to cover a shortage of H1 mods) I kinda like to think of the scarcity as a feature, rather than a bug, though. We did make sure each module had a "co-author", too, so we had judging options.
It seemed like everybody had a lot of fun and enjoyed the adventures, so I'm not too worried about next year. I know I would really dig it to go to other nearby cons and check out local stories, but I was just curious how the community at large felt about the idea.
I love MYREs. I would be a little tentative to play one at a con though. We all go for a good gaming experience but even more so at a con. MYREs can be hit or miss and that depends 100% on the DM.
Just to drag this thread off topic a little, how do folks feel about My Realms adventures at conventions?
I think I'd be a bit leery about playing a MyRealms at a convention, limiting myself to those where (a) I know the DM and believe that he was able to deliver a good adventure, or (b) I'm playing with a group of friends that are going to have fun no matter what we play.
I think I'd be a bit leery about playing a MyRealms at a convention, limiting myself to those where (a) I know the DM and believe that he was able to deliver a good adventure, or (b) I'm playing with a group of friends that are going to have fun no matter what we play.
I agree with this sentiment. I'd avoid MyRealms adventures at a public venue, especially at a convention. As a convention organizer I would not allow them.
Also, I should mention that this con was early this year, before the latest Specials or the BI existed, so we were looking at running basically a weekend full of plain ol' modules.
I think I'd be a bit leery about playing a MyRealms at a convention
Well, my thoughts are that a bad DM is a bad DM... so a bad DM running his own adventure probably won't make the experience worse for me. Indeed it might just make it better as:
- he'll be more comfortable and flexible
- I'll get a new experience
- It won't spoil a good LFR adventure for me
I think I'd be a bit leery about playing a MyRealms at a convention
Well, my thoughts are that a bad DM is a bad DM... so a bad DM running his own adventure probably won't make the experience worse for me. Indeed it might just make it better as:
- he'll be more comfortable and flexible
- I'll get a new experience
- It won't spoil a good LFR adventure for me
I'd be more concerned about wasting 4 hours of my life running through some putz's attempt to re-create his favorite episode of Dragonball Z in 4E. A bad DM running a poorly-written MYRE is the daily-double of a coyote ugly gaming experience.
It takes a lot effort and a good amount of courage to write something on your own and attempt to run it for a group of players (even more so at a convention where you are likely to be running it for strangers). I think MYRE authors deserve even more respect that official LFR authors - they aren't getting paid.
I've played a few MYREs now and even the worst among them were still better than the majority of the LFR mods out there. With the track record LFR has I don't understand all the confidence people have in the system. Can a committed and passionate gamer really do any worse?
It takes a lot effort and a good amount of courage to write something on your own and attempt to run it for a group of players (even more so at a convention where you are likely to be running it for strangers). I think MYRE authors deserve even more respect that official LFR authors - they aren't getting paid.
Think of it this way. Most LFR adventures receive major adjustments from playtesting. I can say without a doubt that almost all of the SPEC2-1s are much better due to playtesting. In most cases, the authors have prior experience or are otherwise vetted by the admins. So, why would we think that a random MYRE author is going to do a better job? Sorry, but it doesn't add up.
Now, what I do think happens is that most gamers approach a MYRE without their typically critical eye. Instead of being ready to jump on any aspect of the adventure, the player knows this is the DM's personal creation and they lower their expectations. Often, they will be pleasantly surprised. I try to adjust for this effect when I playest my own LFR adventures - I expect the players to cut me slack in a way they would not if it was written by someone else. Similarly, they are less likely to really complain about any playtest but would probably do so if it was a published adventure. It is hard to adjust for this effect and very hard to measure it.
Another effect comes from any time the author is running something. They know the adventure best. With a MYRE, the author likely feels the empowerment to change things on the fly even more. Too controlling? Tone it down. Too easy? Increase the challenge. The author of a MYRE likely will make changes another DM or even author would never make.
Now, as to the nightmare scenarios... sure, there are bound to be some. There are nightmare scenarios with how some people run established adventures... I can name far too many for my taste. I have only played two MYREs, so I can't share any big experiences there. I do, however, prefer to play an LFR adventure over someone's MYRE unless I really know them. This would be especially true at a convention, where I usually have more options than there are adventures. I am also a completist... I want to play everything, so a MYRE gets in the way of that.
I do really support MYREs. They can be a lot of fun, both for the author and the players. I just would not equate them, overall, with a regular LFR adventure.
I do really support MYREs. They can be a lot of fun, both for the author and the players. I just would not equate them, overall, with a regular LFR adventure.
I think where MYREs work best is where the writer of the MYRE is attempting to cover a gap created by LFR's structure. As an example, there's a plot that obviously either ends or begins in the mod. The MYRE writer then adds a scenario which reveals no actual information, but makes it seem like there was more of a campaign world. This is especially true when the point is to flesh out the world, not to necessarily make some sort of moral choice.
As an example:
NPC in mod A is trying to grab some important artifact and dies in the mod.
MYRE mod shows one of his flunkies trying to steal some tidbit of information that suggests that the artifact exists.
So in order, the DM runs the MYRE mod and then mod A. It doesn't establish any permanent canon other than the apparently throwaway NPC had a life beyond mod A.
I've played a few MYREs now and even the worst among them were still better than the majority of the LFR mods out there. With the track record LFR has I don't understand all the confidence people have in the system. Can a committed and passionate gamer really do any worse?
It takes a lot effort and a good amount of courage to write something on your own and attempt to run it for a group of players (even more so at a convention where you are likely to be running it for strangers). I think MYRE authors deserve even more respect that official LFR authors - they aren't getting paid.
Ouch! I don't want to derail this thread, so would you point me to a thread where you expressed what you want to see in LFR adventures, particularly what is missing in your opinion? (I recall some threads in the past, but I don't recall who posted.) Clearly you have a very negative opinion of LFR.
Keith
I am hoping I will have some freshly minted modules from LFR for that too.
Ouch! I don't want to derail this thread, so would you point me to a thread where you expressed what you want to see in LFR adventures, particularly what is missing in your opinion? (I recall some threads in the past, but I don't recall who posted.) Clearly you have a very negative opinion of LFR.
Keith
I played in some of these my realms with Ferol and they were all very fun. I would be interested in playing them again at cons with a different PC.
I'm not sure what could be added to LFR (what is missing), but just in general, my opinion as a consumer is my best experiences have been MYRE >PFS > LFR. I could make a quick guess and say LFR has less control over the setting so it feels less immersive maybe? I cant blame the system/rules because the same system was more fun played with MYRE. Maybe its just LFR is afraid to take risks-similar mods written by the same authors-doing the same stuff? I wish I had something more helpful than that to add.
I don't think ferol's opinion of LFR is very negative. The my realms (we played of course) were better than most LFR mods. I can imagine as a convention organizer of a convention not immediately after ddxp/gencon its harder to deliver what you promise on the schedule of mods.
I think its always better to have a customer have harsh words but accept your bid, then it is to have a customer thats really nice but accepts the bid of a competitor.
I have started a LFR campaign, which will have one great interlocking story - which isn;t that hard since Idid write onbe great interlockign story. TRhe main thing is that you likely won't see that so quickly unless you actualyl have read a few key adventures and seen the connections.
LFR is delivered piece meal, and that means it can be hard to see the connections.
The campaign started last sunday with DALE1-1 the Prospect, which introduced a number of NPCs that will play an important role later on.
Rigth now, I am running a MYRE (started on tuesday, we'll finish it today), which is a 'prequel' to the former adventure, a flashback showing how the PCs actually met each other several weaks earlier. It is a different style of adventure (who knows, maybe it will ever make a proper LFR adventure), since it includes some events build to the PCs.
After that, I intent to actually start the story, shuffling a series of adventures in the proper order to create an ongoing story. I am looking forwrad to see things unfold. Now to hope that the party, each memebr of which is totally void of any charismatic skills, will make it that far...
Gomez