So I just got the chance to play Taken over last weekend, and it's definitely hit the list of my favorite adventures in LFR. It has a great element of a sort of open-ended espionage scenario which feels much less like a modular adventure and accommodates different groups' play-styles.
I just wanted to recommend that adventure to others to push this ahead in their queues...I know many groups out there have a large # of H3 mods to pick from that they haven't played yet.
(Once I get the chance to actually read the adventure I'll post with more feedback.)
We are starting to see mods that let us feel like we have some control, some options/choices, some danger where we can end up over our heads, and some solid encounters. Pretty fun!
Also, the skill challenge is an a word, bull
C'mon, a *six* part skill challenge that looks specifically designed to
the Milestone/Action Point/Item Daily System?Again, absent SPEC 1-2 this would be a great adventure, but it's to much same-old and a cheesy skill challenge.
C'mon, a *six* part skill challenge that looks specifically designed to
I'm not sure what you see as
-- putting encounters between checks in a skill challenge is a perfectly legitimate use of skill challenges -- see "Interrupting a Skill Challenge" on page 75 of the DMG.Skill challenges should be scenarios that existed in D&D before the concept- the scenarios stay the same, but now there's an application of 4e mechanics to them. In the context of the adventure, I thought it was done very well.
But I've come to realize that the "2 encounters, get a milestone, oh look there's probably only 2 milestones in a mod and one of those extra APs will probably never be used" format is purely an LFR-ism. And an early LFR-ism at that. As LFR grows, I think we're going to see even more chances taken and changes with the system.
We might see situations where you only have to bloody an encounter and thus the XP totals might be much higher than you expect, we're gonna see more "skill challenges" during combats, and maybe even more strange skill challenges that feel more like combats, skill challenges that act more like traps, etc.
Since D&D is a toolkit, how it gets used is really up to the writers and admins, and they've only had about a year to get used to it. Give it some more time and I'm sure that they'll even get to the point where you might not even have 3 combats in a mod. Oh, wait, they've done that already.
I'm still waiting for the single combat, integrated skill challenge and roleplaying mod.
A single combat can be really rough, or very hit-or-miss. Skill challenges aren't what excites some players. As you said, combos can really avoid these problems and the typecasting of an encounter. CORE1-2 comes to mind.
Since D&D is a toolkit, how it gets used is really up to the writers and admins, and they've only had about a year to get used to it. Give it some more time and I'm sure that they'll even get to the point where you might not even have 3 combats in a mod. Oh, wait, they've done that already.
The new batch of adventures are bearing that out imho. I believe they'll only get better as we all become more comfortable with all facets of the new edition. Most people disregard that adventures are six-nine months less "4e/LFR savvy" than the player base at the time of release because of the lead times.
I'm still waiting for the single combat, integrated skill challenge and roleplaying mod.
The current guidelines dictate a minimum of two combats in each adventure. It's really one of the few restrictions but I believe it is a good one.
Yes, a single combat, integrated skill challenge and roleplaying mod could be fantastic - it could also be god awful, so I'll wait on one of the Global Administrators (three of the best writers around) to break that rule before letting the general writing populace have at it.
I've played it and ran it, and I think it's ok. Of course, I already played SPEC 1-2 (big floating mountain dungeon -- kinda loses the thrill the second time w/ the same character in the same H3 band).
Also, the skill challenge is an a word, bull
C'mon, a *six* part skill challenge that looks specifically designed to
Again, absent SPEC 1-2 this would be a great adventure, but it's to much same-old and a cheesy skill challenge.
To each his own, but that skill challenge was NOT specifically designed to upset the milestone rules. It was designed to deal with a pacing issue of having a huge amount of roleplaying and planning at the start of the adventure and then all the fights at the end. If you really feel that bad about it, run it as three seperate small skill challenges, but from a game mechanical point of view (the effects of failing scenes is cumulative leading to one end result right at the end of the last scene) it does not make much sense.
To each his own, but that skill challenge was NOT specifically designed to upset the milestone rules. It was designed to deal with a pacing issue of having a huge amount of roleplaying and planning at the start of the adventure and then all the fights at the end. If you really feel that bad about it, run it as three seperate small skill challenges, but from a game mechanical point of view (the effects of failing scenes is cumulative leading to one end result right at the end of the last scene) it does not make much sense.
To be honest, I couldn't really tell how the successes/failures were supposed to work, and I'm a pretty smart guy (or, at least I have the degrees of a really smart guy
). The main reason is probably the overly large scope the "Skill Challenge." Yes, I could have run it as three separate challenges, but then I would have been defeating the designer. I really do try to run the adventure as designed at least the first time.That said, I wouldn't have minded two moderately large challenges. [I'm at work, so I may be misremembering the Skill Challenge sections b/c there were so many of them). I think the 2A to find out options, choose 2B, 2C, or 2D, fight Encounter 3,and the a 2E to finish getting into the mote would be good. Then, start a second skill challenge, to find the kids and reach the final battle. How well did in the first challenge determines some options in the second challenge. How well the second challenge is met determines the final encounter setup.
Anyway, I played one table with all DMs and I ran a table with a couple DMs at it and absolutely nobody thought the challenge wasn't specifically designed to counter player metagaming of Action Points. Just sayin'.
Anyway, I played one table with all DMs and I ran a table with a couple DMs at it and absolutely nobody thought the challenge wasn't specifically designed to counter player metagaming of Action Points. Just sayin'.
My first thought when reading the above was that maybe the table of DMs needs to stop metagaming themselves and enjoy being players!
By that I mean that oftentimes (in my area anyway), when a table of regular DMs get together to play, they spend more time critiquing the adventure during play than actually trying to enjoy it and, you know, be players...
Happens most often during slot zeroes for conventions, which is understandable I guess, but it does take away from the immersion and enjoyment of playing imho.
My first thought when reading the above was that maybe the table of DMs needs to stop metagaming themselves and enjoy being players!
By that I mean that oftentimes (in my area anyway), when a table of regular DMs get together to play, they spend more time critiquing the adventure during play than actually trying to enjoy it and, you know, be players...
Happens most often during slot zeroes for conventions, which is understandable I guess, but it does take away from the immersion and enjoyment of playing imho.
Well, the all-DM table *was* a slot zero. And it's not like all of the discussion was during the session.
Anyway, some people find metagaming fun, the same way some people like Catcher in the Rye and Jay and Silent Bob movies.
Perhaps things happen in a different order depending on different ways you play the mod, but I didn't see a problem with the whole action point/milestone thing. There were 3 fights and a skill challenge. You had 2APs to split over three fights, as per usual. Ok, you weren't going to have an AP available for the second combat encounter, but it wasn't exactly the toughest fight going.
I must admit I'm amused by people complaining about this sort of thing. Oh boohoo, I didn't get three action points this mod. Stop gaming the system and enjoy an engaging and seamless integrated skill challenge!
I agree with Ughman. This one went straight into my top five LFR mods the first time I played it, and I look forward to playing it again so we can attempt to find another way to address the skill challenge.
Perhaps things happen in a different order depending on different ways you play the mod, but I didn't see a problem with the whole action point/milestone thing. There were 3 fights and a skill challenge. You had 2APs to split over three fights, as per usual. Ok, you weren't going to have an AP available for the second combat encounter, but it wasn't exactly the toughest fight going.
I must admit I'm amused by people complaining about this sort of thing. Oh boohoo, I didn't get three action points this mod. Stop gaming the system and enjoy an engaging and seamless integrated skill challenge!
I'm not sure who you're addressing. I didn't like the skill challenge because it looked like it was the author metagaming against the players. I don't care if the author really was or wasn't, I care about what was presented to me. The time for first impressions is over, and my first impression was that the author was cheesing the players. Everybody else at my location had the same first (and subsequent) impressions. End of discussion.
The mod had a really cool setting -- in an earth mote with a StarWarsy feel to it. Unfortunately, it was the *second* mod I played [in that tier] with the same setting. It was original and exciting in SPEC 1-2. It was still fun, but (coupled with the perceived cheese) definitely lacking the second time around. I don't which author submitted the idea first, or wrote the mod first, and I don't care. In my location, it was the second run.
If the DM has warning and can DME away the cheese, and the players haven't played SPEC 1-2, I can see it being a great time. It's easily worth the time to DME properly, so I'd consider running it again. But I can't justify running it stock.
I'm not sure who you're addressing. I didn't like the skill challenge because it looked like it was the author metagaming against the players.
The mod had a really cool setting -- in an earth mote with a StarWarsy feel to it. Unfortunately, it was the *second* mod I played [in that tier] with the same setting. It was original and exciting in SPEC 1-2. It was still fun, but (coupled with the perceived cheese) definitely lacking the second time around. I don't which author submitted the idea first, or wrote the mod first, and I don't care. In my location, it was the second run.
How is a long skill challenge 'metagaming' against the players? I just don't understand that reaction.
And from my recollection, Spec1-2 is completely different.
Show
Ok, you climb up to an earthmote in both. But there the similarity ends. The encounters are different, the method of approaching is different, the attitude and atmosphere are different.
Ok, you climb up to an earthmote in both. But there the similarity ends. The encounters are different, the method of approaching is different, the attitude and atmosphere are different.
I'm not sure who you're addressing. I didn't like the skill challenge because it looked like it was the author metagaming against the players. I don't care if the author really was or wasn't, I care about what was presented to me. The time for first impressions is over, and my first impression was that the author was cheesing the players. Everybody else at my location had the same first (and subsequent) impressions. End of discussion.
But I am trying to understand how you even get that impression. It helps me as an author and reviewer of adventures if I understand the players that play LFR.
First of all, what is the difference in your perception between three complexity 1 skill challenges or one complexity 3 skill challenge? Do you consider the later cheesing players out of their milestones either (after all, you can often enough run those complexity 3 skill challenges as three different encounters)?
Second of all, regardless of the order of events, you still get 2 milestones that you can actually use in the adventure unlike in many other LFR adventures. Does this effect really gives the DM an unfair advantage against the players, because that is ultimately what you mean when you say I cheesed you out of a milestone.
Thirdly, the majority of players I know actually find it odd to get a milestone in the first place for complexity 1, 2 and 3 skill challenges. The DMG mentions that you only get a milestone for a decent challenge encounter. Each # of complexity is considered fighting 1 normal monster of that level, and facing one or two normal monsters in a fight is a far cry from a challenge. So they conclude that you should not get a milestone for them anyway.
In any event, if you really let something like this ruin your fun I would stay away from CORE1-7. It follows the same mechanics.
The mod had a really cool setting -- in an earth mote with a StarWarsy feel to it. Unfortunately, it was the *second* mod I played [in that tier] with the same setting. It was original and exciting in SPEC 1-2. It was still fun, but (coupled with the perceived cheese) definitely lacking the second time around. I don't which author submitted the idea first, or wrote the mod first, and I don't care. In my location, it was the second run.
Huh? That is like saying that WATE1-2 and DRAG1-1 or AKA1-1 and LURU1-1 are the same since the first two have an encounter in the sewers and the second have an encounter in a forest, because ultimately that are the extend of the similarities between SPEC1-2 and CORE1-8.
Encounter 1 -- RP Only
Encounter 2 -- (The Ridiculous Skill Challenge of Frommage)
o Scene 1 Skill Challenge
o Choose one of Scene 2, Scene 3, or Scene 4 -- Skill Challenge
o Encounter 3 - -Combat
----------------------
At this point, the party has played 3 "encounters", but since Scenes 1-4 don't count as completing Encounter 2, no Milestone is reached. Three encounters with no Milestone.
----------------------
o Encounter 2 Scene 5 (nope, 4 "encounters", but no milestone...)
o Encounter 5 -- FINALLY, a second full encounter, so a milestone.
o Encounter 2 Scene 6 -- Finally, this Encounter is finished, but as...
o Encounter 6 -- The Last Encounter...
----------------------------
Game Over, here's your third Action Point after seven encounters...and your third item daily -- hope you weren't counting on using 3 magic items at level 7-10.
How's that for being clear on what wasn't liked? BTW, this was one, not two, usable milestones. And per the DMG, you get milestone every two XP-bearing encounters.
Now, if that wasn't the way it was supposed to fall out, please clarify.
And I didn't say it wasn't fun, I said it was cheesy.
And as far as scenery goes, I *am* getting a little bored with sewers and traipsing after kidnapped children. Forests are generic enough, but Earth Mote Death Stars are a little too specific. And I thought I was clear -- I wasn't accusing one writer of copying the other, and they probably had different writing directors, but Earth Motes are special enough terrain that having two in a short time interval begs comparisons. They're *not* as common as forest. Although they are cooler.
I did note though that you did not adress my comment on how to treat complexity 2 or 3 skill challenges that consists of distinctly different scenes but which are not interrupted by other fights? What is it, that makes the interruption of these scenes in CORE1-8 cheesy, while you consider it one encounter if there is no such interruption?
In any event, most LFR adventures consists of 3, or 4 xp granting encounters. Hence, you would reach at most 1 usable milestones, which is exactly the same in this adventure.
And I didn't say it wasn't fun, I said it was cheesy.
Actually, when you use smilies like
, then you are using pretty strong language, which does suggest you did not had fun.And as far as scenery goes, I *am* getting a little bored with sewers and traipsing after kidnapped children.
Sometimes I think some people are playing too much LFR and having unrealistic expectations on the amount of different terrains and plots that can be used if you publish 15 to 20 adventures per quarter. Either that or people have a weird way to remember one thing and forgetting all the rest. There are exactly two adventures about kidnapped children that I know of, and surprise, both are part of the same series (CORE1-8 is the sequel to CORE1-5). [Well, there is a third, but that is not yet available.] I know of only a handful of adventures with one or more encounters set in a sewer.
And I thought I was clear -- I wasn't accusing one writer of copying the other, and they probably had different writing directors
Depends on how you look at it. SPEC1-2 was written by 2 globals, and CORE1-8 by the third ;) I wrote it, hence my interest in the discussion.
Earth Motes are special enough terrain that having two in a short time interval begs comparisons. They're *not* as common as forest. Although they are cooler.
Perhaps I am misremembering (we did skip over some of the detail in an effort to finish SPEC1-2 in time), but how did that earthmote bear any resemblence to the one in CORE1-8? Their interior, and what you did therein, are entirely different.
If you're going to complain about repeating themes, I'd complain about temples of Shar. I've lost count of how many of those my characters have stumbled across.
And as madfox points out, the vast majority of LFR adventures you only gain one usable milestone. Ones in which you gain two or more are the exception.
Maybe it was the way the mod was ran. My recollection (it's been a few weeks now) was this:
Encounter 1 -- RP Only
Encounter 2 -- (The Ridiculous Skill Challenge of Frommage)
o Scene 1 Skill Challenge
o Choose one of Scene 2, Scene 3, or Scene 4 -- Skill Challenge
o Encounter 3 - -Combat
----------------------
At this point, the party has played 3 "encounters", but since Scenes 1-4 don't count as completing Encounter 2, no Milestone is reached. Three encounters with no Milestone.
----------------------
o Encounter 2 Scene 5 (nope, 4 "encounters", but no milestone...)
o Encounter 5 -- FINALLY, a second full encounter, so a milestone.
o Encounter 2 Scene 6 -- Finally, this Encounter is finished, but as...
o Encounter 6 -- The Last Encounter...
----------------------------
Game Over, here's your third Action Point after seven encounters...and your third item daily -- hope you weren't counting on using 3 magic items at level 7-10.
How's that for being clear on what wasn't liked? BTW, this was one, not two, usable milestones. And per the DMG, you get milestone every two XP-bearing encounters.
Now, if that wasn't the way it was supposed to fall out, please clarify.
And I didn't say it wasn't fun, I said it was cheesy.
And as far as scenery goes, I *am* getting a little bored with sewers and traipsing after kidnapped children. Forests are generic enough, but Earth Mote Death Stars are a little too specific. And I thought I was clear -- I wasn't accusing one writer of copying the other, and they probably had different writing directors, but Earth Motes are special enough terrain that having two in a short time interval begs comparisons. They're *not* as common as forest. Although they are cooler.
If you didn't notice, the skill challenge system is pretty flexible. If a GM is looking for 12 successes over a decent set of time, they could make it a complexity 5 skill challenge, or 2 complexity 2 challenges. Maybe, just maybe- in a pre-written adventure where the writer wasn't sure exactly the route any specific group of PCs was going to take nor was he sure how unpredictable elements will play out- he tried to make things simple (and based the challenge off of it's consequences). Ah, what villainy! This simplicity makes it so you can only AP 2 out of three combat encounters! Are you serious?
Have you also noticed that various other adventures have skill challenges built of various scenes that may or may not all happen individually? (BALD 1-2, DALE 1-4, WATE 1-3 various others) It's an attempt to give the GM flexibility to adapt the adventure to what the PCs are doing, not an attempt to pull disparate skill challenges into one. Personally, I much prefer adventures that are set up to adjust to what my table does, rather than pigeon holing us into a do x then y then z format. But I suppose I should curse those writers for not writing those scenes as separate skill challenges, so I can achieve some arbitrary # of milestones that I feel I deserve.
On the subject of terrain:
You seem to be complaining that adventures have generic locations (such as forests or sewers) and then exotic(to us) locations like earthmotes (which are more common than you seem to think in 4e FR. FRCG, p52:
"Earthmotes are common along the edges of regions where portions of Abeir replaced Toril's landscape, as if making an imperfect seam between the fuesd worlds......However, they can be found nearly anywhere, and lone earthmotes (often called simply motes) have become familiar features in even the most staid lands."
Maybe these will pop up a few times, and rightly so?
Or you could start complaining that adventures keep having castles on the tops of hills, or the red dragon lives in a cave, or farmers live on farms (so cliche!). This obviously has nothing to do with the inhabitants of the world taking advantage of terrain that presents itself to them. (I mean, if you could make a fortress on an earth mote, or the ground, which would you choose?)
I actually thought that rescuing kids from a dark temple/fortress floating above the ground was interesting and fun, but then again, I obviously don't play D&D the way it should be played- with a whining scrutiny about the writer/GM being out to get me.
Originally I thought as the cursing poster did.
But I've come to realize that the "2 encounters, get a milestone, oh look there's probably only 2 milestones in a mod and one of those extra APs will probably never be used" format is purely an LFR-ism. And an early LFR-ism at that. As LFR grows, I think we're going to see even more chances taken and changes with the system.
I agree with the above statement.
The alternative to mixing it up would be to keep seeing the same format that's in so many adventures, and then people can complain that every LFR adventure is the same.
Basically, I'd never like to see a Fight Fight, SC SC, where you get that first milestone and never get to use the AP that it generated. Bascially just never end on back to back skill challenges =P
There is a legitimate discussion point about whether or not really weak skill challenges (say complexity one) should by themselves count towards a milestone. Personally, I think you have to judge that in context of the adventure; does it distort the outcome of how many milestones and action points? Opinions will vary on this issue.
Sure, the first time you visit an Earthmote, you were an Earthmote virgin, and you will never be that again. Hopefully you did not mean you would never enjoy visiting an Earthmote again.
Keith
I enjoyed CORE1-8, but I did question if the scenes in the skill challenge really should have been connected in one skill challenge. Obviously I have no objection to an extended skill challenge, but I think it should have a theme or purpose (the objective) that unifies the scenes or tasks in the skill challenge. Grouping a set of tasks, each of which have different objectives, seems odd to me. Perhaps I just did not understand the connecting objective that the author saw.
The underlaying connecting objective of the skill challenge as a whole was to determine how alert the inhabitants of the monastery became towards the presence of a group of amorale mercenaries planning to invade their home and kidnap their followers (all spoken from the monks' perspective of course) at various stages of the adventure. I probably could have made that clearer, especially since in some scenes the secondary goal of the scene actually appear more important that keeping a low profile (e.g. actually getting inside in scene 2, 3 or 4 as opposed to doing so without triggering an alarm).
That was my initial reaction, and the reaction of a number of judges in my location. Unfortunately, you can't defend against first impressions, although people in this thread seem to be trying. It's kind of irritating to have people ignore your right to react how something looks based on its appearance.
I appreciate the feedback, especially from the author, as well various suggestions that seem to indicate that if I think breaking it into two big chunks (with combate embedded, not just just sc->combat), that would be within the rights of me as a DM.
I apologize if the fact that I found a flaw with the module's structure and felt that certain elements had too recently been used makes it sounds like I did not enjoy playing or running the module, as that is not the case.
After discussion, I think I have a better understanding of the author's goals, and I hope he has a better understanding of how some people might initially react to the design.
FYI, my main complaint, which I never mentioned, was the awesome side-level view that, do to slot length, did not get it its proper air time. For a home game, just navigating the mote itself could be a decent skill challenge. Maps lead to plans, plans lead to splitting the party, and splitting the party leads to a smiling DM
FYI, my main complaint, which I never mentioned, was the awesome side-level view that, do to slot length, did not get it its proper air time. For a home game, just navigating the mote itself could be a decent skill challenge. Maps lead to plans, plans lead to splitting the party, and splitting the party leads to a smiling DM
This one I can concur with
I enjoyed CORE1-8, but I did question if the scenes in the skill challenge really should have been connected in one skill challenge. Obviously I have no objection to an extended skill challenge, but I think it should have a theme or purpose (the objective) that unifies the scenes or tasks in the skill challenge. Grouping a set of tasks, each of which have different objectives, seems odd to me. Perhaps I just did not understand the connecting objective that the author saw.
To be clear, I did not object to the extended skill challenge,I just would have made it *2* such. Encounter 2 Scene 1, followed by Scene 2, Scene 3, or Scene 4, followed by Encounter 3, concluded with Scene 4 (get into Earth Mote). Then, Scene 5 (possibly expanded if there was time), Encounter 4, and Scene 6. Then, of course, Big Boss Battle
There is a legitimate discussion point about whether or not really weak skill challenges (say complexity one) should by themselves count towards a milestone. Personally, I think you have to judge that in context of the adventure; does it distort the outcome of how many milestones and action points? Opinions will vary on this issue.
Don't LFR Mods have text like:
"No matter if the characters succeed or fail in an
encounter, they reach a milestone if it is the second
encounter they’ve had since the start of the adventure or
their last extended rest. Encounters that do not give
QUES1-1 Black Cloaks and Bitter Rivals Page 4
out experience points do not count for purposes of
reaching a milestone. Make certain to mention this
information to the players when applicable, as it gives
each PC another action point and affects how some
magic item powers are used."
Under the instructions not to make new rules when existing rules suffice, I would consider not giving milestones when expected to be not following the rules.Sure, the first time you visit an Earthmote, you were an Earthmote virgin, and you will never be that again. Hopefully you did not mean you would never enjoy visiting an Earthmote again.
Hopefully I didn't come across as anti-earth-mote, I just wouldn't want to do too many in a row. All I said about this mod was that it was less exciting because I had played SPEC 1-2 recently and I thought there were a lot of similarities in the missions. Just a personal feeling, not a fault of the mod. I hope I was clear about that.
I enjoyed CORE1-8, but I did question if the scenes in the skill challenge really should have been connected in one skill challenge. Obviously I have no objection to an extended skill challenge, but I think it should have a theme or purpose (the objective) that unifies the scenes or tasks in the skill challenge. Grouping a set of tasks, each of which have different objectives, seems odd to me. Perhaps I just did not understand the connecting objective that the author saw.
To be clear, I did not object to the extended skill challenge,I just would have made it *2* such. Encounter 2 Scene 1, followed by Scene 2, Scene 3, or Scene 4, followed by Encounter 3, concluded with Scene 4 (get into Earth Mote). Then, Scene 5 (possibly expanded if there was time), Encounter 4, and Scene 6. Then, of course, Big Boss Battle
There is a legitimate discussion point about whether or not really weak skill challenges (say complexity one) should by themselves count towards a milestone. Personally, I think you have to judge that in context of the adventure; does it distort the outcome of how many milestones and action points? Opinions will vary on this issue.
Don't LFR Mods have text like:
"No matter if the characters succeed or fail in an
encounter, they reach a milestone if it is the second
encounter they’ve had since the start of the adventure or
their last extended rest. Encounters that do not give
QUES1-1 Black Cloaks and Bitter Rivals Page 4
out experience points do not count for purposes of
reaching a milestone. Make certain to mention this
information to the players when applicable, as it gives
each PC another action point and affects how some
magic item powers are used."
Under the instructions not to make new rules when existing rules suffice, I would consider not giving milestones when expected to be not following the rules.
Sure, the first time you visit an Earthmote, you were an Earthmote virgin, and you will never be that again. Hopefully you did not mean you would never enjoy visiting an Earthmote again.
Hopefully I didn't come across as anti-earth-mote, I just wouldn't want to do too many in a row. All I said about this mod was that it was less exciting because I had played SPEC 1-2 recently and I thought there were a lot of similarities in the missions. Just a personal feeling, not a fault of the mod. I hope I was clear about that.