I am usually loathe to make any comments on a module I have not actually played or ran, but as I only made it to page 6 before deciding that I don't have much of an interest in doing either, this will have to do.
Show
I'm at a loss as to how the first skill challenge made it past an editor.
DC 12/19 as the difference between low- and high-tier?
Rolling initiative to determine order in the skill challenge, with the primary significance of this being that choosing to delay before the group has achieved two successes with Athletics/Acrobatics/Intimidate is an automatic failure?
I can't come up with a kinder way to describe this than a colossal misunderstanding of the basic fundamentals of how skill bonuses, skill challenges and initiative are supposed to work in 4e.
This is without even getting into how this module lacks even the most basic of hooks, beyond "You're in a bar; someone runs out the door; if you don't chase after him, you fail".
After this debacle, the players then have several (potentially short, potentially lengthy) roleplaying encounters/info-dumps, after which the module continues, though the author goes to great lengths to determine the circumstances under which the PCs can, after a single skill challenge, choose to take an extended rest. Apparently the author's usual group likes their naptime.
The players then make their way to a hill with four buildings. They must enter each building and overcome the encounter therein. The final scene is not accessible until they have triumphed over all four buildings. I was getting the feeling that I should start looking around for the right pixel to click.
Within the buildings are three combat encounters--one easy and the other two trivial. Inasmuch as the average encounter level of a low-tier L4-7 is expected to be 5, and high-tier 7, combats of levels 4/2/3 at low-tier and 6/4/5 at high-tier might most charitably be described as speed-bumps.
We then finish up the module with one more skill challenge. What's this? Why, yes, the DCs are again 12/19 depending on tier, with PCs rolling initiative and delaying before two successes are achieved earning a failure.
Treasure? Pretty good, which is why this module will no doubt see some play. I continue to fail to see any rationale behind low-tier only party treasure which is higher level than the average high-tier party--the module contains a 7th and an 8th level magic item, each of which can only be obtained at low-tier, which is mind-boggling. (Yes, there are replacements at high-tier, but that's kind of beyond the point if you're a 6th level PC properly playing high that would have liked one of the low-tier items.)
DC 12/19 as the difference between low- and high-tier?
Rolling initiative to determine order in the skill challenge, with the primary significance of this being that choosing to delay before the group has achieved two successes with Athletics/Acrobatics/Intimidate is an automatic failure?
I can't come up with a kinder way to describe this than a colossal misunderstanding of the basic fundamentals of how skill bonuses, skill challenges and initiative are supposed to work in 4e.
This is without even getting into how this module lacks even the most basic of hooks, beyond "You're in a bar; someone runs out the door; if you don't chase after him, you fail".
After this debacle, the players then have several (potentially short, potentially lengthy) roleplaying encounters/info-dumps, after which the module continues, though the author goes to great lengths to determine the circumstances under which the PCs can, after a single skill challenge, choose to take an extended rest. Apparently the author's usual group likes their naptime.
The players then make their way to a hill with four buildings. They must enter each building and overcome the encounter therein. The final scene is not accessible until they have triumphed over all four buildings. I was getting the feeling that I should start looking around for the right pixel to click.
Within the buildings are three combat encounters--one easy and the other two trivial. Inasmuch as the average encounter level of a low-tier L4-7 is expected to be 5, and high-tier 7, combats of levels 4/2/3 at low-tier and 6/4/5 at high-tier might most charitably be described as speed-bumps.
We then finish up the module with one more skill challenge. What's this? Why, yes, the DCs are again 12/19 depending on tier, with PCs rolling initiative and delaying before two successes are achieved earning a failure.
Treasure? Pretty good, which is why this module will no doubt see some play. I continue to fail to see any rationale behind low-tier only party treasure which is higher level than the average high-tier party--the module contains a 7th and an 8th level magic item, each of which can only be obtained at low-tier, which is mind-boggling. (Yes, there are replacements at high-tier, but that's kind of beyond the point if you're a 6th level PC properly playing high that would have liked one of the low-tier items.)
Now I want to get my hands on this module to see what is what. :/
With no malicious intent towards the author, who wrote this module? Just a curious question.
Now I want to get my hands on this module to see what is what. :/
Not to pile on, but the writeup for the Diamond Cincture in the New Rules section doesn't reflect the errata. Not a big deal, but if this does get revised that ought to be added to the list of fixes.
Show
Prep: The Encounter levels (2/3/4 low and 4/5/6 high) will not be challenging for many groups. (Target levels 5 low / 7 high.) If your players enjoy a good combat challenge, ask them at the beginning if you can increase the difficulty. Adding 2 levels (+2 defenses/+2 hit/+1 damage/+12 hp) to every creature in the mod should be an appropriate challenge for most groups.
Player's Introduction: There seems to be an introduction paragraph missing before the box-text. You'll want to set the scene with the PCs in a tavern, having ordered their meal, and introductions. Once the scene is set, then the box-text makes more sense in context.
Encounter 1 Chase: I agree with the OP - there does not seem to be a reason for the High Tier to be using Level 9 DCs. I'm also not a fan of rolling initiative, then forcing players to act in initiative order. (i.e. Auto-failure for delaying.) It seems to me that these scenes will run smoother as group skill checks. Also, the secondary +2 bonuses seem strange - since in most cases a success at the DC would be a success anyway. For example: A PC can make a DC 12/19 Insight check for a success. They can make a DC 12/19 Perception check to get a +2. In the same scene - a PC can make a DC 12/19 check for a success. Better is to just award a +2 bonus if the PC is trained in the secondary skill. (i.e. If the PC can make the "help" roll, they can get a success anyway - which is better than a +2.)
Encounter 2-3 RolePlay/Investigation: Lots of good information here. The only issue is that PCs may want to focus on solving the murder, not searching ruins. If your PCs are more interested in the murder, you may have the Vigilant be more "cooperative," letting the PCs know they will share everything they find when they complete their investigation (in a few days). This gives the PCs a reason to "kill some time" while ignoring the murder.
Encounter 4 Rest: So we have 2 pages for if the PCs decide to take an extended rest. This would have been a good adventure question at the end - Did they take the rest or not? I suspect most groups will not, simply because the combat encounters as written will be trivial for most groups.
Encoutners 5-9: The Illusion of Choice - - randomizing encounters to avoid the train tracks is a lofty goal. However, in this case, it's pretty meaningless. Better is to offer clues so that PCs can make informed decisions about which to examine first. (They can try to play to their strengths.) Perhaps they hear gears grinding from some ancient mechanism from the manor house or caws from the top of the mews. These clues give the PCs something to base their choices on.
Encounter 5 Manor: I like the skill-challenge within a combat mechanic, and I felt the author did a nice job here. Good run-down of the tactics, though a mechanical encounter. There doesn't seem to be a reason for these creatures to be here, or for the programming as to why the creatures are guarding what they are. It seems to be missing a paragraph about an ancient alarm system being activated. The DC for getting on the table is off - a DC 5 is too low to hop up on a table. (Unless the table is 1 foot high.)
Encounter 6 Mews: Another good idea here, just not fully executed. Good tactical advice offered. The cages are a little strange . . . The weakest part of this encounter is the challenge level. Five Level 1 monsters for a L5 group - or five Level 3 monsters for a L7 group - is not going to present much of a challenge to most groups.
Encounter 7 Kennel: Again, a lot of good tactical advice - unfortunately for creatures that will not live long enough to use it. (When I played this, there was one bloodied creature left at the end of round 1.) Leveling up will help here.
Encounter 8 Unstable Stable: Again, I'm not a fan of forcing initiative-order checks on PCs during a skill challenge. I think it works better as a group-check in scene 1, with those who succeed being able to assist in scene 2. Once again, there doesn't seem to be a reason to have Level 9 DCs at high tier. And again, I'd give the +2 secondary bonus to trained characters, since making the secondary check can just count towards the overall success.
Encounter 9 Hidden: This was the most anti-climactic encounter I've seen in LFR. After stomping through three encounters, the flavor text hints at "brilliant red and demonic shapes begin to form." Alright! We're gonna get to fight some demons! Wrong. Without doing anything, the seals fail and the demons are banished. ??? I'm just at a loss here. This could have been a very cool skill challenge (stop the demons from materializing) / fight (kill some demons) / or combo (weaken the seals to make the demons easier to kill). As-written, it feels like a cheat. I plan on skipping the last sentence of Scenes 1-4 and all of Scene 5.
To summarize:
• Strengths - Tactics were a highlight of this mod. For a newer DM, or one who isn't tactically savvy, there are some great tips for running each set of monsters. I suspect the author enjoys the tactical aspect of 4e. The combo skill challenge/combat is well-executed.
• Weakness - The combats are too low-level. The skill challenges are forced and have strange DC/mechanics. The "final encounter" is anti-climactic.
Prep: The Encounter levels (2/3/4 low and 4/5/6 high) will not be challenging for many groups. (Target levels 5 low / 7 high.) If your players enjoy a good combat challenge, ask them at the beginning if you can increase the difficulty. Adding 2 levels (+2 defenses/+2 hit/+1 damage/+12 hp) to every creature in the mod should be an appropriate challenge for most groups.
Player's Introduction: There seems to be an introduction paragraph missing before the box-text. You'll want to set the scene with the PCs in a tavern, having ordered their meal, and introductions. Once the scene is set, then the box-text makes more sense in context.
Encounter 1 Chase: I agree with the OP - there does not seem to be a reason for the High Tier to be using Level 9 DCs. I'm also not a fan of rolling initiative, then forcing players to act in initiative order. (i.e. Auto-failure for delaying.) It seems to me that these scenes will run smoother as group skill checks. Also, the secondary +2 bonuses seem strange - since in most cases a success at the DC would be a success anyway. For example: A PC can make a DC 12/19 Insight check for a success. They can make a DC 12/19 Perception check to get a +2. In the same scene - a PC can make a DC 12/19 check for a success. Better is to just award a +2 bonus if the PC is trained in the secondary skill. (i.e. If the PC can make the "help" roll, they can get a success anyway - which is better than a +2.)
Encounter 2-3 RolePlay/Investigation: Lots of good information here. The only issue is that PCs may want to focus on solving the murder, not searching ruins. If your PCs are more interested in the murder, you may have the Vigilant be more "cooperative," letting the PCs know they will share everything they find when they complete their investigation (in a few days). This gives the PCs a reason to "kill some time" while ignoring the murder.
Encounter 4 Rest: So we have 2 pages for if the PCs decide to take an extended rest. This would have been a good adventure question at the end - Did they take the rest or not? I suspect most groups will not, simply because the combat encounters as written will be trivial for most groups.
Encoutners 5-9: The Illusion of Choice - - randomizing encounters to avoid the train tracks is a lofty goal. However, in this case, it's pretty meaningless. Better is to offer clues so that PCs can make informed decisions about which to examine first. (They can try to play to their strengths.) Perhaps they hear gears grinding from some ancient mechanism from the manor house or caws from the top of the mews. These clues give the PCs something to base their choices on.
Encounter 5 Manor: I like the skill-challenge within a combat mechanic, and I felt the author did a nice job here. Good run-down of the tactics, though a mechanical encounter. There doesn't seem to be a reason for these creatures to be here, or for the programming as to why the creatures are guarding what they are. It seems to be missing a paragraph about an ancient alarm system being activated. The DC for getting on the table is off - a DC 5 is too low to hop up on a table. (Unless the table is 1 foot high.)
Encounter 6 Mews: Another good idea here, just not fully executed. Good tactical advice offered. The cages are a little strange . . . The weakest part of this encounter is the challenge level. Five Level 1 monsters for a L5 group - or five Level 3 monsters for a L7 group - is not going to present much of a challenge to most groups.
Encounter 7 Kennel: Again, a lot of good tactical advice - unfortunately for creatures that will not live long enough to use it. (When I played this, there was one bloodied creature left at the end of round 1.) Leveling up will help here.
Encounter 8 Unstable Stable: Again, I'm not a fan of forcing initiative-order checks on PCs during a skill challenge. I think it works better as a group-check in scene 1, with those who succeed being able to assist in scene 2. Once again, there doesn't seem to be a reason to have Level 9 DCs at high tier. And again, I'd give the +2 secondary bonus to trained characters, since making the secondary check can just count towards the overall success.
Encounter 9 Hidden: This was the most anti-climactic encounter I've seen in LFR. After stomping through three encounters, the flavor text hints at "brilliant red and demonic shapes begin to form." Alright! We're gonna get to fight some demons! Wrong. Without doing anything, the seals fail and the demons are banished. ??? I'm just at a loss here. This could have been a very cool skill challenge (stop the demons from materializing) / fight (kill some demons) / or combo (weaken the seals to make the demons easier to kill). As-written, it feels like a cheat. I plan on skipping the last sentence of Scenes 1-4 and all of Scene 5.
To summarize:
• Strengths - Tactics were a highlight of this mod. For a newer DM, or one who isn't tactically savvy, there are some great tips for running each set of monsters. I suspect the author enjoys the tactical aspect of 4e. The combo skill challenge/combat is well-executed.
• Weakness - The combats are too low-level. The skill challenges are forced and have strange DC/mechanics. The "final encounter" is anti-climactic.
I don't want to be unkind to the author, who I'm sure put a good deal of time and effort into writing this. I'm sure that there are groups out there who want this kind of module. I'm not entirely sure who those might be, as those who prefer skill-focused modules over combat aren't likely to like these challenges, and combat-types are certainly not going to find much herein, but clearly someone saw something good here. I suppose there are groups that will enjoy spending an hour or two with the roleplaying/info-dump scenes, though there's less here for the DM to work with than your average Waterdeep module provides.
It depends on your expectations.
My group had fun playing this module, but that was because our DM warned us about it in advance. Our DM gave us the option to play it exactly as written or to play an extremely DME'd version of the adventure. We chose the "as written" option and played it in a beer-and-pretzel's style. We went into the adventure with extremely low expectations and a "Let's just play this for the hell of it. It'll be amusing to see if it's as bad as our DM claims" kind of attitude. From that perspective - it was certainly amusing. Although if anyone got up to get a snack during a combat it'd be over before they returned to the table... (Our group has played every single LFR adventure released, so we also wanted to check the mod off our list.)Even though we took our time, we finished the adventure in just an hour and a half. Because the treasure bundles are good and the module can be played extremely quickly, I'm sure it will become a standard H2 fastplay-for-treasure-bundles adventure.