I don't want to spoil anything but I just played a P1 mod where there was a hidden dragon that used frightful presence on the party. I've always understand frightful presence to be something where the players see the dragon and are scared because, OMG, "It's a dragon!". So, to be standing there with no monsters visible and to suddenly be stunned for no apparent reason seems pretty silly to me.
In fact, it seems to be taking the mechanics of the rules and ignoring the fact that this is a role-playing game. Does this seem to not make sense to anyone else? Do you agree or disagree?
Surprise! I'm a dragon, RAWR!!!
I don't want to spoil anything but I just played a P1 mod where there was a hidden dragon that used frightful presence on the party. I've always understand frightful presence to be something where the players see the dragon and are scared because, OMG, "It's a dragon!". So, to be standing there with no monsters visible and to suddenly be stunned for no apparent reason seems pretty silly to me.
If I held that interpretation, I'd agree that it's silly.
I think it's possible that the frightful presence is more than just the dragon's appearance. It has a presence, and it can let you know it's around even if you can' t see it. If nothing else, the presence is a magical effect, but to my mind it could also involve smells, sounds, a bit of static in the air, a change in temperature, strange reactions from wildlife, a general sense of deep foreboding etc. all of which adds up to affect those in the area with stunning, debilitating fear.
In short, you've made an assumption that has no basis in the rules. Revise your mental image to be in line with what the mechanics actually allow and the silliness might drop away.
In fact, it seems to be taking the mechanics of the rules and ignoring the fact that this is a role-playing game. Does this seem to not make sense to anyone else? Do you agree or disagree?
I have to say that I don't see what the fact that this is a role-playing game has to do with it. We have the mechanics, and the description is up to us.
to be standing there with no monsters visible and to suddenly be stunned for no apparent reason seems pretty silly to me.
Transparency seems to be the paradigm for 4e. PHB p.57 says "Whenever you affect a creature with a power, that creature knows exactly what you’ve done to it and what conditions you’ve imposed." While that doesn't neccesarily mean you have to tell players they've been affected by a dragon's frightful presence, I see no reason not to in this case.
The dragon in CORE1-10 for example certainly made it's presence known (in a pretty scary manner) and even conversed with the PC's without actually being seen or having it's position pin-pointed. Indeed, a dragon that you know is nearby but can't see seems scarier to me than a dragon that you can see.
Guess its more in the way the situation is phrased than a mechanical issue.
Frightful Presence (Ex)
This special quality makes a creature’s very presence unsettling to foes. It takes effect automatically when the creature performs some sort of dramatic action (such as charging, attacking, or snarling). Opponents within range who witness the action may become frightened or shaken. Actions required to trigger the ability are given in the creature’s descriptive text.
So, there's no right or wrong answer here but I firmly believe that a dragons' frightful presence that is so terrifying it stuns characters isn't because "you have a bad feeling" or "something is there that you can't see". I've walked home at night alone on a deserted street and been nervous, but not so nervous that I couldn't walk for a moment.
In my mind the PCs are heroes and especially at paragon level they have faced and battled many terrifying things. Can you imagine if in Lord of the Rings Aragorn is standing in the forest by himself and suddenly, with nothing in sight but perhaps a bad feeling or the palpable sense of evil he suddenly goes stiff? For me it's just not very cinematic. However, imagining a Nazgul flew down and for a moment Aragorn paused to steel himself against this sinister opponent, now that would be cool.
But, there's no wrong or right answers here and it sounds like I'm in the minority.
I agree that it's true that any power or ability can be anything you want it to be. I think the ease of re-skinning monsters in 4th edition is great and I have used it several times myself. However, I still think that D&D realizes its fullest potential when it is used as a vehicle to tell a great story with dramatic and exciting battles and other interesting challenges.
With you there.
Dragons, to me, are close to if not the epitomy of these exciting and dramatic encounters. I think stunned is probably the most debilitating condition in the game. You can't take any actions. I see this as your muscles are locked up and/or your mind is numb. The fear keyword attached to the dragon's frightful presence reinforces this in my thinking.
I don't think anyone disagrees with this.
So, there's no right or wrong answer here but I firmly believe that a dragons' frightful presence that is so terrifying it stuns characters isn't because "you have a bad feeling" or "something is there that you can't see".
You're welcome to believe things that don't hew to how powers actually function, but your only reward is that the game will seem silly when your believe clashes with the rules. You are, in effect, skinning the power your way, when it isn't required to work that way. I dislike analogies, but it would be something like imagining magic missiles to be conjured arrows (a perfectly acceptable reskinning) and then thinking it's silly that they can only go 20 squares.
I've walked home at night alone on a deserted street and been nervous, but not so nervous that I couldn't walk for a moment.
Then you're lucky enough not to have encountered the level of fear that a dragon's mere presence can generate.
In my mind the PCs are heroes and especially at paragon level they have faced and battled many terrifying things. Can you imagine if in Lord of the Rings Aragorn is standing in the forest by himself and suddenly, with nothing in sight but perhaps a bad feeling or the palpable sense of evil he suddenly goes stiff?
You've got it the wrong way around. The dragon's frightful presence is not a just a "bad feeling". We're talking about a sensation of fear so strong that it is, literally, stunning for at least six full seconds, and debilitating after that. I don't like to imagine something that bad, but it would be like seeing a loved one suddenly die in front of me. So, if Aragorn is walking along and suddenly he feels as bad as if Arwen had been killed before his eyes he would probably freeze. Then the dragon rears its head.... Hard to convey cinematically, but very exciting, I think, and if it were described that way to me, I'd know that my character was facing something Very Bad.
you're lucky enough not to have encountered the level of fear that a dragon's mere presence can generate.
I can haz fear
The first draconomicon states its some sort of magical reaction in the dragon's eyes. Its effectively a gaze attack.
Except that blind targets are not immune. So there's no need to see the dragon to experience the fear.
The first draconomicon states its some sort of magical reaction in the dragon's eyes. Its effectively a gaze attack.
I like my answer better. Much more simple.
SURPRISE!!!
I'm a dragon!
SURPRISE!!!I'm a dragon!
"... if only we had some forewarning that there might be a dragon in this dungeon!"
I'm a dragon!
Rawwrrrrr . . . . . .
Anti-thematic perhaps, but I've seen some dragons go down like whimpering puppies and that is similarly anti-thematic.
As a mostly unrelated sidenote, I'm finding that the tactics blocks give horrible advice on how to use dragon fear. Stunning a party and then using an action point to attack them as an opener isn't gaining a dragon anything particularly impressive. Attack twice if you want to do damage. Using it to get out of the solo-monster-lockdown tricks that parties frequently employ is far better.
Anti-thematic perhaps, but I've seen some dragons go down like whimpering puppies and that is similarly anti-thematic.
Or use it to kill a Consecrated Ground so you don't have to CDG your players.
Honestly, the "best tactical" time for the dragon to use frightful presence (stun) is when PCs need actions to sustain effects.
