IMPI1-7 needs to be toned down (spoilers) - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

IMPI1-7 needs to be toned down (spoilers)

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
damoncasale
Dec 06, 2009 23:26:03 Please DO NOT READ THIS unless you've already played it or you are a DM and are planning on running it.

** SPOILERS **

The first half of this mod, with the skill challenges and the well-designed RPing, was fantastic. It totally gave the appropriate feel of investigating something suspicious about an arranged marriage that kept getting more and more suspicious the more you find out. But as soon as you get to the final combat, you're in for a world o' hurt.

I just ran this with six PCs. They brought:
Fighter-7

Wizard-7

Bard-7

Warlord-6

Avenger-6

Shaman-6

Now, before fully reading the mod, I suggested that they go low since they were a bit weak in the damage output department. They decided to opt for high, though.

The final fight consisted of FIVE needlefang drake swarms with 70hp each in addition to a bunch of other baddies. Also, the PCs started all bunched together at the bottom of the map, and before they even got their turns, they ALL got immobilized for a round. It just went downhill from there.

Whoever wrote this mod, I'd be very interested to hear what your playtest feedback was. Now, the party I ran this for was weak in the damage output department, but not so weak that they were totally ineffective. Bringing out their dailies helped a lot. They could've used more AOEs to battle the swarms with, though. (Without the wizzie, they would've been dead.) But FIVE needlefang drake swarms? FIVE!?? (With scaling up to six PCs, that is.)

That's just insane. And wrong. Especially since the terrain of the encounter is set up such that the PCs will end up all bunched together at the bottom and then get mobbed by the swarms, resulting in epic fail. Three would've been plenty.

I ended up having to use deliberately suboptimal battle tactics to give them even a fighting chance. Also, one of the PCs used a power which created a zone that would daze enemies inside it. I DMEd that that would also neutralize the swarms' auras, since without that they would've been dead regardless of party composition. As it was, I had half the party down at one point in the encounter and ALL of the healing from all three leaders completely used up. One PC managed to roll a 20 on his death save, otherwise there's no way they'd have made it.

When designing an encounter, you have to be very careful to steer a middle road between making it too easy for a party and making it impossible. A 7-10 party would've found this encounter close to impossible, and here it was in a 4-7 mod! That's just wrong.

A good way to judge whether an encounter is too easy, too tough, etc., is to calculate the average damage output per round. Let's look at this (on high):

The swarm has 11.5 average damage from his attack, or 17 average damage if the opponent is prone. He'll get to make this attack an average of three times per round, assuming he's next to two opponents. (Twice from his aura and once from a regular attack.) On average, even without prone, that's 34.5 points of damage per round, PER SWARM. That's enough to bloody -- or just about bloody -- ANY PC in this level range. Multiply that by five swarms and it's just too much. That's not even counting the other enemies.

Finally, in order to take down a swarm, you either have to do a lot of AOEs or deal out a LOT of melee or ranged damage on them, since they resist 5. That means that you're literally forcing parties to have not just one PC with AOEs, but several. Otherwise, the PCs *will* get TPKed.

This needs to be fixed pronto. To any DMs running this, I suggest two different possibilities. First of all use just two swarms at high, or three with six PCs. Also, use just one archer, or two with six PCs. Secondly, you might consider placing dangerous terrain that the swarms could be pushed into, which could deal AOEs on them that didn't do a great amount of damage but would make it possible for controller-light parties to succeed.

Damon
#2
melos
Dec 06, 2009 23:43:30 The errata for this creature might help.

Needlefang Drake Swarm
Page 90: In the swarm of teeth power, replace “1d10 +
4” with “1d6 + 2” and “2d10 + 4” with “2d6 + 2.” In
the pull down power, add “1/round” after “minor” and
replace “+7 vs. Fortitude” with “+3 vs. Fortitude.” This
change adjusts the power level of the creatures.
#3
Madfox11
Dec 07, 2009 3:15:33 Just to confirm: that errata had not been applied. to the needlefang swarms.
#4
damoncasale
Dec 07, 2009 6:22:06 Yes, I forgot to apply the errata. I remember reading through the errata before and thinking that the nerf to the swarms was long overdue, and then I ran this mod and completely forgot. Oops. At least the party survived. That's what I get for leaving my prep time to a minimum because I'm swamped w/ work, even over the weekend. ^^;;

Even so, that only changes the average damage output per swarm from 34.5 per round per swarm to 22.5 per round per swarm. (Each swarm was upped two levels for high, remember, so it's 1d6+4 and 2d6+4 for prone.) And remember, most of the swarms, I DME'd to have *no* aura, plus they were almost all dazed and so couldn't use their pull-down attack, and this party was *still* having a nearly impossible time of it.

Even with the lesser damage output, I would've used only three swarms for all six PCs. It was that bad.

Damon

#5
princess_artemis
Dec 07, 2009 22:52:17 Thank you for your feedback. We (speaking for both of us) are glad you enjoyed the story and the other encounters.

Our playtesters were challenged by the final fight as we originally wrote it, but the mod was tweaked and edited after we turned it in.

Thank you for the rough formula in determining damage for an encounter build--we will keep it in mind for future adventures.
#6
Madfox11
Dec 08, 2009 3:34:43 As far as average damage go it misses a vital component though: the chance to actually hit. Of course, judging the difficulty of swarms is at times really hard. If you run the test with a group where several PCs have area attacks the swarms can be dead in no time. If the group lacks such resources, or is in some way outmanouvered by the swarms or the DM uses the most lethal interpretation on how the aura works (does it stack? does it trigger a mark?) it can make a fight lethal. Just remember DME, especially when you have a group without controllers or area blasters. (Note that I do not consider DME an excuse to make fights overly lethal. If that happened in this adventure, I would like to hear more opinions, and perhaps make some changes - no promises, errata is not easily done. DME though is something every DM should keep in mind when running an adventure to make the adventure most fun for the group you are gaming with.)
#7
SYB
Dec 10, 2009 22:41:42 I have to say that the party opted for high. I can't see any reason to pull punches. If they want the high rewards, they should have to deal with the high consequences. Add two levels to each party member (which would add about 60 total hit points, a +1 to all defenses and attack rolls, and 6 attack powers) and the fight probably would have been reasonable.

-SYB
#8
damoncasale
Dec 11, 2009 0:34:21 Were you paying attention when I posted what level each PC was? They technically WERE a high table. They just didn't have a lot of damage output.

Damon
#9
tirianmal
Dec 11, 2009 8:49:50
I have to say that the party opted for high. I can't see any reason to pull punches. If they want the high rewards, they should have to deal with the high consequences. Add two levels to each party member (which would add about 60 total hit points, a +1 to all defenses and attack rolls, and 6 attack powers) and the fight probably would have been reasonable.

Were you paying attention when I posted what level each PC was? They technically WERE a high table. They just didn't have a lot of damage output.

And even if the table had been all Level 6s, adding one level (they can't get to 8), doesn't add to defenses, or attack rolls. So, if High is supposed to be reasonable for level 6+ (that -is- the guideline I believe), then no, the fight probably sucks.

#10
SYB
Dec 13, 2009 2:04:34 My bad. For some reason I was thinking it was a 7-10 module.

-SYB
#11
Cailte
Dec 14, 2009 5:51:45
the DM uses the most lethal interpretation on how the aura works (does it stack? does it trigger a mark?) it can make a fight lethal

The RAW for Auras are pretty clear, if they do damage or impose the same penalty at different values they do not stack. Aura's that make attacks are not doing either of those things so they do stack. If that is not how the Campaign Staff think Aura's should be used have appropriate notes put in the tactics section of modules that use multiple monsters with Auras. Even if it is how the Campaign Staff think Auras should be used it probably should be there in the tactics section of relevant encounters as a reminder to DMs that it is how things are expected to work.

#12
Keithric
Dec 14, 2009 9:33:03 Yeah, their auras definitely 'stack'. They also trigger marks, though, which can be entertaining in certain groups. Multiple defenders can have a swarm triggering mark damage or attacks several times a round.

Needlefang Drake Swarms were actually well known on forums as overpowered, even as one of the most overpowered creatures in 4e, with multiple of them thrown together poster childs for TPK inducing events. Thankfully the errata helped them out quite a bit.

Diving aside from the creature type in question for a second - five in one encounter just seems like an awful lot to sandwich into one encounter. Especially with something like swarms, where certain parties can really overdo or underdo the resist/vuln mechanic, I would advise never having more than a couple of a certain creature type. It's somewhat similar to ending up in a fight with five goblin hexers or wraiths - a creature already problematic in one or two just gets downright unfun with too much in one place. I'm not sure there are all that many non-minions I'd advise ever having more than three of in one encounter.
#13
damoncasale
Dec 15, 2009 11:06:03
My bad. For some reason I was thinking it was a 7-10 module.

-SYB

By the end of that fight, so were we.

Damon

#14
ibixat
Dec 20, 2009 0:55:44
wow, we played this today, table of 4, our revenant paladin took like a bajillion and a half damage from those swarms holding them in place (without ever going down, standing on consecrated ground helped lol), about round 5 of combat i asked our DM, hey, what are those swarms, he replied and I asked, "you are using the errata right" and got a "what errata" lol.

The only problem I had with the encounter is their damage was so high at first (till he started using the errata) that we had to spend all our time fighting them and couldn't really do anything else, of course they had the entry mostly blocked. I really would hope that no one uses that many swarms at once in a mod again, they may not have been as bad had I managed to roll over 5 on all my dang bursts too, out of 4 burst attacks trying to hit them, getting 9 attack rolls I think I only hit 3 out of the 9, and I was the only one with bursts... it was a grind on the swarms from that point on.

Overall though I really did like the mod =)
#15
Ore
Dec 20, 2009 11:54:25 I actually ran this module yesterday and the last fight was extremely difficult but the party pulled through in the end.

Some folks are going to hate me for saying this but I think a majority of combat encounters found in most modules only provide a moderate challenge to most parties. Now I don't think every combat encounter should be very difficult but I have to admit I have been disappointed a few times by the ease with which we cruised through a grande finale combat encounter.

IMPI 1-7 definitely delivered in the challenge department. Most combat encounters don't need to be this difficult but if all new modules started leaning more towards IMPI 1-7's level of difficulty rather than the current norm I will be a happier DM and Player.
#16
Ore
Dec 20, 2009 11:57:38
One more thing... Yes, the errata is necessary for the swarms in this combat encounter or I would be agreeing with you that it needed to be toned down. If I had used the original stats for the swarm there would have been a TPK yesterday for sure.

Using the fixed stats this combat encounter hits the high end of difficulty but is not unreasonable, imho.
#17
Black_Egg
Jan 21, 2010 20:14:43 Needlefang swarms are still TPK machines post-errata in my opinion. They aren't as bad but they aren't much better either. Stacking that many into one encounter seems irresponsible to me.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 damoncasale Dec 06, 2009 23:26:03	Please DO NOT READ THIS unless you've already played it or you are a DM and are planning on running it. SPOILERS The first half of this mod, with the skill challenges and the well-designed RPing, was fantastic. It totally gave the appropriate feel of investigating something suspicious about an arranged marriage that kept getting more and more suspicious the more you find out. But as soon as you get to the final combat, you're in for a world o' hurt. I just ran this with six PCs. They brought: Fighter-7 Wizard-7 Bard-7 Warlord-6 Avenger-6 Shaman-6 Now, before fully reading the mod, I suggested that they go low since they were a bit weak in the damage output department. They decided to opt for high, though. The final fight consisted of FIVE needlefang drake swarms with 70hp each in addition to a bunch of other baddies. Also, the PCs started all bunched together at the bottom of the map, and before they even got their turns, they ALL got immobilized for a round. It just went downhill from there. Whoever wrote this mod, I'd be very interested to hear what your playtest feedback was. Now, the party I ran this for was weak in the damage output department, but not so weak that they were totally ineffective. Bringing out their dailies helped a lot. They could've used more AOEs to battle the swarms with, though. (Without the wizzie, they would've been dead.) But FIVE needlefang drake swarms? FIVE!?? (With scaling up to six PCs, that is.) That's just insane. And wrong. Especially since the terrain of the encounter is set up such that the PCs will end up all bunched together at the bottom and then get mobbed by the swarms, resulting in epic fail. Three would've been plenty. I ended up having to use deliberately suboptimal battle tactics to give them even a fighting chance. Also, one of the PCs used a power which created a zone that would daze enemies inside it. I DMEd that that would also neutralize the swarms' auras, since without that they would've been dead regardless of party composition. As it was, I had half the party down at one point in the encounter and ALL of the healing from all three leaders completely used up. One PC managed to roll a 20 on his death save, otherwise there's no way they'd have made it. When designing an encounter, you have to be very careful to steer a middle road between making it too easy for a party and making it impossible. A 7-10 party would've found this encounter close to impossible, and here it was in a 4-7 mod! That's just wrong. A good way to judge whether an encounter is too easy, too tough, etc., is to calculate the average damage output per round. Let's look at this (on high): The swarm has 11.5 average damage from his attack, or 17 average damage if the opponent is prone. He'll get to make this attack an average of three times per round, assuming he's next to two opponents. (Twice from his aura and once from a regular attack.) On average, even without prone, that's 34.5 points of damage per round, PER SWARM. That's enough to bloody -- or just about bloody -- ANY PC in this level range. Multiply that by five swarms and it's just too much. That's not even counting the other enemies. Finally, in order to take down a swarm, you either have to do a lot of AOEs or deal out a LOT of melee or ranged damage on them, since they resist 5. That means that you're literally forcing parties to have not just one PC with AOEs, but several. Otherwise, the PCs will get TPKed. This needs to be fixed pronto. To any DMs running this, I suggest two different possibilities. First of all use just two swarms at high, or three with six PCs. Also, use just one archer, or two with six PCs. Secondly, you might consider placing dangerous terrain that the swarms could be pushed into, which could deal AOEs on them that didn't do a great amount of damage but would make it possible for controller-light parties to succeed. Damon
#2 melos Dec 06, 2009 23:43:30	The errata for this creature might help. Needlefang Drake Swarm Page 90: In the swarm of teeth power, replace “1d10 + 4” with “1d6 + 2” and “2d10 + 4” with “2d6 + 2.” In the pull down power, add “1/round” after “minor” and replace “+7 vs. Fortitude” with “+3 vs. Fortitude.” This change adjusts the power level of the creatures.
#3 Madfox11 Dec 07, 2009 3:15:33	Just to confirm: that errata had not been applied. to the needlefang swarms.
#4 damoncasale Dec 07, 2009 6:22:06	Yes, I forgot to apply the errata. I remember reading through the errata before and thinking that the nerf to the swarms was long overdue, and then I ran this mod and completely forgot. Oops. At least the party survived. That's what I get for leaving my prep time to a minimum because I'm swamped w/ work, even over the weekend. ^^;; Even so, that only changes the average damage output per swarm from 34.5 per round per swarm to 22.5 per round per swarm. (Each swarm was upped two levels for high, remember, so it's 1d6+4 and 2d6+4 for prone.) And remember, most of the swarms, I DME'd to have no aura, plus they were almost all dazed and so couldn't use their pull-down attack, and this party was still having a nearly impossible time of it. Even with the lesser damage output, I would've used only three swarms for all six PCs. It was that bad. Damon
#5 princess_artemis Dec 07, 2009 22:52:17	Thank you for your feedback. We (speaking for both of us) are glad you enjoyed the story and the other encounters. Our playtesters were challenged by the final fight as we originally wrote it, but the mod was tweaked and edited after we turned it in. Thank you for the rough formula in determining damage for an encounter build--we will keep it in mind for future adventures.
#6 Madfox11 Dec 08, 2009 3:34:43	As far as average damage go it misses a vital component though: the chance to actually hit. Of course, judging the difficulty of swarms is at times really hard. If you run the test with a group where several PCs have area attacks the swarms can be dead in no time. If the group lacks such resources, or is in some way outmanouvered by the swarms or the DM uses the most lethal interpretation on how the aura works (does it stack? does it trigger a mark?) it can make a fight lethal. Just remember DME, especially when you have a group without controllers or area blasters. (Note that I do not consider DME an excuse to make fights overly lethal. If that happened in this adventure, I would like to hear more opinions, and perhaps make some changes - no promises, errata is not easily done. DME though is something every DM should keep in mind when running an adventure to make the adventure most fun for the group you are gaming with.)
#7 SYB Dec 10, 2009 22:41:42	I have to say that the party opted for high. I can't see any reason to pull punches. If they want the high rewards, they should have to deal with the high consequences. Add two levels to each party member (which would add about 60 total hit points, a +1 to all defenses and attack rolls, and 6 attack powers) and the fight probably would have been reasonable. -SYB
#8 damoncasale Dec 11, 2009 0:34:21	Were you paying attention when I posted what level each PC was? They technically WERE a high table. They just didn't have a lot of damage output. Damon
#9 tirianmal Dec 11, 2009 8:49:50	I have to say that the party opted for high. I can't see any reason to pull punches. If they want the high rewards, they should have to deal with the high consequences. Add two levels to each party member (which would add about 60 total hit points, a +1 to all defenses and attack rolls, and 6 attack powers) and the fight probably would have been reasonable. Were you paying attention when I posted what level each PC was? They technically WERE a high table. They just didn't have a lot of damage output. And even if the table had been all Level 6s, adding one level (they can't get to 8), doesn't add to defenses, or attack rolls. So, if High is supposed to be reasonable for level 6+ (that -is- the guideline I believe), then no, the fight probably sucks.
#10 SYB Dec 13, 2009 2:04:34	My bad. For some reason I was thinking it was a 7-10 module. -SYB
#11 Cailte Dec 14, 2009 5:51:45	the DM uses the most lethal interpretation on how the aura works (does it stack? does it trigger a mark?) it can make a fight lethal The RAW for Auras are pretty clear, if they do damage or impose the same penalty at different values they do not stack. Aura's that make attacks are not doing either of those things so they do stack. If that is not how the Campaign Staff think Aura's should be used have appropriate notes put in the tactics section of modules that use multiple monsters with Auras. Even if it is how the Campaign Staff think Auras should be used it probably should be there in the tactics section of relevant encounters as a reminder to DMs that it is how things are expected to work.
#12 Keithric Dec 14, 2009 9:33:03	Yeah, their auras definitely 'stack'. They also trigger marks, though, which can be entertaining in certain groups. Multiple defenders can have a swarm triggering mark damage or attacks several times a round. Needlefang Drake Swarms were actually well known on forums as overpowered, even as one of the most overpowered creatures in 4e, with multiple of them thrown together poster childs for TPK inducing events. Thankfully the errata helped them out quite a bit. Diving aside from the creature type in question for a second - five in one encounter just seems like an awful lot to sandwich into one encounter. Especially with something like swarms, where certain parties can really overdo or underdo the resist/vuln mechanic, I would advise never having more than a couple of a certain creature type. It's somewhat similar to ending up in a fight with five goblin hexers or wraiths - a creature already problematic in one or two just gets downright unfun with too much in one place. I'm not sure there are all that many non-minions I'd advise ever having more than three of in one encounter.
#13 damoncasale Dec 15, 2009 11:06:03	My bad. For some reason I was thinking it was a 7-10 module. -SYB By the end of that fight, so were we. Damon
#14 ibixat Dec 20, 2009 0:55:44	wow, we played this today, table of 4, our revenant paladin took like a bajillion and a half damage from those swarms holding them in place (without ever going down, standing on consecrated ground helped lol), about round 5 of combat i asked our DM, hey, what are those swarms, he replied and I asked, "you are using the errata right" and got a "what errata" lol. The only problem I had with the encounter is their damage was so high at first (till he started using the errata) that we had to spend all our time fighting them and couldn't really do anything else, of course they had the entry mostly blocked. I really would hope that no one uses that many swarms at once in a mod again, they may not have been as bad had I managed to roll over 5 on all my dang bursts too, out of 4 burst attacks trying to hit them, getting 9 attack rolls I think I only hit 3 out of the 9, and I was the only one with bursts... it was a grind on the swarms from that point on. Overall though I really did like the mod =)
#15 Ore Dec 20, 2009 11:54:25	I actually ran this module yesterday and the last fight was extremely difficult but the party pulled through in the end. Some folks are going to hate me for saying this but I think a majority of combat encounters found in most modules only provide a moderate challenge to most parties. Now I don't think every combat encounter should be very difficult but I have to admit I have been disappointed a few times by the ease with which we cruised through a grande finale combat encounter. IMPI 1-7 definitely delivered in the challenge department. Most combat encounters don't need to be this difficult but if all new modules started leaning more towards IMPI 1-7's level of difficulty rather than the current norm I will be a happier DM and Player.
#16 Ore Dec 20, 2009 11:57:38	One more thing... Yes, the errata is necessary for the swarms in this combat encounter or I would be agreeing with you that it needed to be toned down. If I had used the original stats for the swarm there would have been a TPK yesterday for sure. Using the fixed stats this combat encounter hits the high end of difficulty but is not unreasonable, imho.
#17 Black_Egg Jan 21, 2010 20:14:43	Needlefang swarms are still TPK machines post-errata in my opinion. They aren't as bad but they aren't much better either. Stacking that many into one encounter seems irresponsible to me.