Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 MightyThokk Sep 19, 2009 13:18:16	Heya, this seemed like the best spot to get the answers I'm looking for.... I've disliked the parcel system from the get go, and after 6 levels or so of it I've decided to look at some other options for my own game.  I looked at the bundle system LFR uses and decided its a better way to go for my group. My understanding is that each level 3 bundles are handed out and each player takes a pick.  Each bundle has a few item choices (typically +1 to +4 level relative to the adventure/PCs) and a gold option.  What is the gold option worth per level or bundle?  Is the gold option the same in each bundle or are some bundles "better"? Thanks all!
#2 Keith53 Sep 19, 2009 17:07:15	LFR uses its treasure bundle system as an adjustment to the parcel system due to the unique aspects of a Living Campaign (more than one DM, changing makeup of players, diversity of adventure play).  The details are described in the LFR Writers Guideline, but the summary is as follows: We may include up to 8 treasure bundles per adventure; each bundle has only one item in it (although multiple rituals may be in one ritual book or scroll). The level of the items are limited by the anticipated level of the PCs; the treasure bundles are NOT equal in gold value.  There is usually considerable difference between low end and high end. Each PC may pick one found magic item per level.  If it does not violate the preceeding statement, each PC may pick one treasure bundle per adventure. The treasure bundles mostly have (permanent) magic items, but may also contain rituals or consumables, which do not count against the found magic item limit.  More than one PC may pick the same treasure bundle.  The reason for this limit is to keep the PCs wealth/magical items on track with the design in the DMG.  The availability of treasure bundles are usually dependent upon finding the item and/or playing the encounter in which the item is located.  The text in the LFR Adventures gives specifics. PCs may take more gold (or a consumable) rather than a treasure bundle, so normally everyone gets something. Personally I would not use this system for a home campaign but you can if you want. Keith
#3 MightyThokk Sep 19, 2009 19:31:55	Personally I would not use this system for a home campaign but you can if you want. Keith   Thanks Keith!  IMO The parcel system is more hassle than its worth.  I've got a hand drawn spreadsheet keeping tabs of the "big 3" items for the 5 PCs to make sure I don't double up on +2 scale mail and accidentally miss the clerics holy symbol.  Pretty much the amount of time it takes me to pin down 4 magic items I could crank out a combat encounter with the Adventure tools monster maker.  It wasn't adding anything to the narritive or the partiularly fun for me so I started hunting for other methods.   I'll be relaxing the rules some since its a constant rather than a random play group.  The main points of one found item per level, a few bundles per level to pick from, if you don't like the items (or already took an item for this level) take the gold.  Plus I'll be putting the items and lewt on cards and putting the cards into a little treasure chest that I'll put out on the map.  I think that will make it better.   The level of the items are limited by the anticipated level of the PCs; the treasure bundles are NOT equal in gold value.  There is usually considerable difference between low end and high end. This was the cruchy part.  Parcel system PCs get 4 items per 5 levels and a bit of loose change (gold, ritual items, jewels, ect.).  Does the LFR system account for that in any way since PCs could get one item per level?  I was going to take the amount of gold the parcel system handed out in the DMG and divide that by 5 and split that up in the bundles... less gold with the lower level items, more gold with the higher level items.  I can eyeball it, but if there was a formula/guildline/patteren or any sort of method to the maddness I'd rather go with that. Thanks again!
#4 Keith53 Sep 19, 2009 22:52:14	LFR uses the following table for treasure rewards. Treasure Budget (Heroic Tier) Adv. Level Base gp + gp Magic Ritual 1-4 (Low-2nd) 75 50 2-6 100 / 50 1-4 (High-4th) 100 75 4-8 150 / 100 4-7 (Low-5th) 100 125 5-9 250 / 200 4-7 (High-7th) 150 250 7-11 500 / 450 7-10 (Low-8th) 150 350 8-12 700 / 650 7-10 (High-10th) 200 500 10-14 1000/950 Assuming you vary magic items so that individual PCs are not getting items +4 levels above their current level, it will work okay for a similar amount of gp.   Keith
#5 MightyThokk Sep 20, 2009 10:44:21	Once more, my thanks!
#6 Bigfluffylemon Sep 21, 2009 3:11:08	It's also worth bearing in mind that, on average, it takes three LFR adventures to gain a level. Therefore when calculating expected gold, assume that PCs have taken a 'more gold' or 'consumable plus gold' option twice per level, and a magic item bundle pick once.
#7 heroicserge Sep 21, 2009 19:53:59	If picking out items is the main problem, because it takes so much time, then the solution might be in the DMG: get your players to provide you with a "wish list" of items, along with the level of each item, and just pick items to put in the loot from their wish list. The RPGA system suits its purpose, but it does have its flaws. For one it discards verisimilitude completely, since if nobody wants a given item or if everyone has already gotten a magic item this level that item mysteriously vanishes from reality. However if five people all want the +1 cloak then miraculously there are suddenly five +1 cloaks in the loot pile. This is a very good thing in the RPGA setting but in a home game the cost in suspension of disbelief probably isn't worth the convenience.
#8 MightyThokk Sep 21, 2009 21:48:43	If picking out items is the main problem, because it takes so much time, then the solution might be in the DMG: get your players to provide you with a "wish list" of items, along with the level of each item, and just pick items to put in the loot from their wish list. The RPGA system suits its purpose, but it does have its flaws. For one it discards verisimilitude completely, since if nobody wants a given item or if everyone has already gotten a magic item this level that item mysteriously vanishes from reality. However if five people all want the +1 cloak then miraculously there are suddenly five +1 cloaks in the loot pile. This is a very good thing in the RPGA setting but in a home game the cost in suspension of disbelief probably isn't worth the convenience. Player wish lists suspends player disbelief as much as finding 5 of the same item at once (IMO).  Either way its a case of "Hey look!  Just what everyone wanted!".  Plus the player wish lists don't help me with keeping track of who is due for an upgrade.  And the wish lists I got varied from "whatever" to "bloodclaw!!" to a wish list of items spanning 10 levels.  I've got 5 players to space out 20 drops over 5 levels.  5 suits of armor, 5 neck slots, 4 weapons, and 3 impliments to keep "current".  17 out of 20 drops are spoken for....If I wanted really simple I'd hand out residuum instead of items  : ) I play in a game where the itemization got a little borked.  DM didn't realize that only the fighter used heavy armor (Elf cleric with 18 dex, and a Gensi taclord with an 18 int...oops) and we wound up with two spare sets of heavy armor by level 3, and a couple of characters with no or only one item by 3rd level.  It all worked out over a few levels, but from the PC side the parcel system is pretty *bleah*. In any case... parcel system = effort to do right.  And the effort adds *zip* to my game.  So, here I am...  :  )   Edit:"...suspends player disbelief."?  ends the players willing suspension of disbelief?  Something... yeah...makes the giant game of pretend more like a game of pretend and less like reality?  Thats it.
#9 Bigfluffylemon Sep 22, 2009 4:38:35	Meh. I wouldn't worry so much about remembering who needs an upgrade when. That's what the transfer enchantment ritual is for. If you drop a +3 longsword and the guy with a scimatar needs the upgrade, they can swap it across. Ditto armor. As for wishlists, I don't think it was intended that a player provides a shopping list of exactly what loot they want every level. I think it's more a case of 'this is a melee character who will be using a warhammer and scale mail, please supply appropriate items.'
#10 MightyThokk Sep 22, 2009 22:30:26	For those intrested my final method will be along these guidelines. 1 found magic item per level 4 bundles handed out per level, pick gold or item.  If you've already taken the item for this level you get the gold/ritual materials/gems/funny hat/whatever. Swapping between PCs is okay (since its a constant group.  I only note this since its a significant differance from the LFR rules) but non-returning charcters take their stuff with them when they go. The 4 bundles will be handed out in no particular order.  Bundle A will contain a choice of several level +1 items and 10% of the max gold per level.  Bundle B will be level +2 items and have 15% of the max gold per level.  Bundle C will be two level +3 items and be 25% of the max gold per level.  Bundle D will be a single +4 item or 50% of the max gold per level.  Max gold per level would be equal to the amount a PC would get if they picked the gold option for each bundle under the LFR Guidelines. This hits the important metric of being more entertianing for me, plus being more flexible for no more time, if not less time, invested.  And by more entertaining I mean watching my players choose between the lewt in front of them and "...but what if the next bundle has the Bloodclaw???"   Edit: Oh!  And one more time thank you for the comments and suggestions.