Here are some ideas:
- Make the encounter less friendly for ranged combatants, such as with concealing/obscuring fog, lots of small full cover terrain that breaks up fields of fire / line of effect, etc. Unfortunately, this penalizes those players.
- Force melee, such as by having a lurker come out of hiding behind the rear ranks. Melee everywhere, and not a thing they can do about it. The penalty here is on the danger side, and tends to be a big challenge.
- Add special terrain that helps melee PCs. This includes slides, ropes for swinging, and teleportation portals. They can move all around, thus getting to attack all the time. This puts them on par with ranged PCs.
- Add special terrain that rewards melee players. This could be things like terrain powers (some cool ideas here from Kobold Quarterly) that modify melee attacks or substitute for them. Or, it might be melee-enhancing attacks like a ramp that can be used to jump onto a large creature.
But, stepping away from this, the rules in general favor ranged PCs. Ranged PCs ignore immobilize and slow, ignore difficult terrain, ignore intervening pits, ignore stairs, etc. They are often safely in the back while the poor melee guy spends a whole round trying to just get near his foe. That happens in most RPGs, unfortunately.
- Make the encounter less friendly for ranged combatants, such as with concealing/obscuring fog, lots of small full cover terrain that breaks up fields of fire / line of effect, etc. Unfortunately, this penalizes those players.
- Force melee, such as by having a lurker come out of hiding behind the rear ranks. Melee everywhere, and not a thing they can do about it. The penalty here is on the danger side, and tends to be a big challenge.
- Add special terrain that helps melee PCs. This includes slides, ropes for swinging, and teleportation portals. They can move all around, thus getting to attack all the time. This puts them on par with ranged PCs.
- Add special terrain that rewards melee players. This could be things like terrain powers (some cool ideas here from Kobold Quarterly) that modify melee attacks or substitute for them. Or, it might be melee-enhancing attacks like a ramp that can be used to jump onto a large creature.
But, stepping away from this, the rules in general favor ranged PCs.
First off I hightlighted that sentence at the end there to make sure that everyone that has ever felt that a mod favored ranged PCs understands that the rules favor ranged PCs. A lot. Mods have to go out of their way to balance things much less help out melee characters.
Second, bullet 2 in alpha's suggestions is nearly useless with many ranged PCs. If your ranged PC doesn't have some way out of melee, then they should. Forcing melee on ranged PCs is difficult unless you're going to gang up on them 2 to 1. Even then ... heh.
Bullet 3: slides, ropes, climbing ... are all hoooooorrible ideas for melee PCs. They'll have to spend actions moving, climbing, running, making acrobatics or athletics checks and it will suck.
Bullet 4: now this one is a great idea. Thin, curvy tunnels. Lots of pillars. Cover, and lots of it. Everyone has to move, but almost no one but melee has light of sight or effect to anyone. That and Bullet 1 are the only real ways to enforce Melee combats. Or at least give the melee combatants the edge.
Otherwise, just get used to the fact that the Twin Striking Bow ranger is mostly going to own the field. Because it is true.
But, stepping away from this, the rules in general favor ranged PCs. Ranged PCs ignore immobilize and slow, ignore difficult terrain, ignore intervening pits, ignore stairs, etc. They are often safely in the back while the poor melee guy spends a whole round trying to just get near his foe. That happens in most RPGs, unfortunately.
Immobilize, like a gun, is just a tool, and its usage is vastly dependent on how it's used. Immobilize is trivial on a melee character who is already adjacent to what he wants to hit, for example. On the other hand, if the bow ranger is adjacent to what he wants to hit, immobilize is a much more serious issue.
What I'm really talking about is the terrain. Alphastream, you know from past conversations that I absolutely love SPEC 2-1 Scouts Honor. But just look at the terrain in that. Two out of three fights use terrain to create seperation between ranged artillery and the PC's. At least two of the maps are 32x32 or larger. Melee characters feel like they need to be riding a mount to close with the enemy. Maybe that's the intent...?
The intent is varied. In general, I aim for spacing and movement to matter. And, of course, I am addicted to large pretty maps. My general (stubborn, obstinate) opinion is that my battlemap worked fine for years and thus battlemap sized encounters should be just fine. Generally, I am happy with the results.
Spoiler for Scout's Honor SPEC2-1 P2:
I talked about this on the thread, but my aim in general is to have the combat play out in stages so as to be more interesting. Part of that is to have the terrain be explorable (or potentially so) and that there be movement reasons and that there be things you can sort of discover. This calls for big areas with features and with things that happen as you move around.
The first combat is probably the one where I worked hardest. The pit is supposed to incentivise some PCs to rashly jump the pit, while still being a threat to others. This helps isolate some PCs, which can be a huge part of the challenge. Sure, the rogue made it across... cool, but now she is all alone and the leader can't get there. I also wanted some protection for the ranged combatants and the big bad, letting them establish damage via auras but preventing PCs from just easily moving and engaging and dropping them. This all works really well.
Now, I don't feel like melee combatants get gimped in that fight. They usually won't waste more than a round moving about. If not, the fight will come to them - they aren't going to be without anything to do. Ranged combatants usually face -4 to attacks, unless they close and put themselves in danger. Seemed fair, especially once the big bad goes and picks on them, the one or two other bigs teleport up, and they still have aura damage. I've seen a lot of ranged combatants hit their first experience with "I might die before my next turn" in this mod.
I talked about this on the thread, but my aim in general is to have the combat play out in stages so as to be more interesting. Part of that is to have the terrain be explorable (or potentially so) and that there be movement reasons and that there be things you can sort of discover. This calls for big areas with features and with things that happen as you move around.
The first combat is probably the one where I worked hardest. The pit is supposed to incentivise some PCs to rashly jump the pit, while still being a threat to others. This helps isolate some PCs, which can be a huge part of the challenge. Sure, the rogue made it across... cool, but now she is all alone and the leader can't get there. I also wanted some protection for the ranged combatants and the big bad, letting them establish damage via auras but preventing PCs from just easily moving and engaging and dropping them. This all works really well.
Now, I don't feel like melee combatants get gimped in that fight. They usually won't waste more than a round moving about. If not, the fight will come to them - they aren't going to be without anything to do. Ranged combatants usually face -4 to attacks, unless they close and put themselves in danger. Seemed fair, especially once the big bad goes and picks on them, the one or two other bigs teleport up, and they still have aura damage. I've seen a lot of ranged combatants hit their first experience with "I might die before my next turn" in this mod.
Keith
While some classes do have reasonable choice IMHO about melee vs ranged attack builds, I am not sure that is really true for all classes. Is there a melee option for controller?
Keith
Druid.
Role: Controller. Your beast form gives you access to powers that provide control at close range, while your humanoid form allows you to hinder your opponents from a distance. Depending on your choice of class features and powers, you might lean toward either leader or striker as a secondary role.
But, stepping away from this, the rules in general favor ranged PCs. Ranged PCs ignore immobilize and slow, ignore difficult terrain, ignore intervening pits, ignore stairs, etc. They are often safely in the back while the poor melee guy spends a whole round trying to just get near his foe. That happens in most RPGs, unfortunately.
Things like Shimmering Armor certainly don't help the balance as they negate one of the main challenges ranged characters have to deal with. And attacking prone targets used to be a penalty, but now there's a feat to negate that too.
I know there are several encounters in various modules, both new and old, that are much friendlier to ranged characters (especially strikers) than they are to melee characters. There are also encounters where either or both can survive and thrive. But it is very rare to find encounters that allow melee heroes a chance to shine over the ranged characters. Will we see some love for the fighters and barbarians in upcoming modules - or are the rumors that LFR module authors exclusively play bow rangers true?
I agree wholeheartedly. It's already being addressed in my upcoming adventure.
p.s. you're welcome.
What's worse, is that the game designers seem to think that pits / slippery terrain makes it "better" for some reason. Here's some knowledge dropped on you: if you're a melee character in heavy armor (fighters and paladins) you're SCREWED. That's that -4 armor check penalty to all physical skills you're wearing. Yes, there's a martial feat you can take to negate that penalty to Either STR/CON or DEX skills (you can take both). Thanks for the Feat Tax game designers! :P
By far the best solution I've seen is mounts. I really don't think mounts should be a big deal in 4e, but some of them really change the dynamic. From level 4-10 I had my CHR-Paladin riding a camel (mostly as a joke), but honestly because his crappy Athletics/Acrobats + speed5 meant I spend more turns double-running and marking then actually using my powers. It was infuriating.
It's a huge design flaw - and that doesn't even take into accound flying creatures. CORE1-7 was HORRIBLE the first time we played it - ranged/reach flying opponents. If you're a melee character, yes you have javelins (and possibly a reach weapon) in reserve - but by level 8+ your character is built around a SPECIFIC weapon, and using powers and abilities that can't use that weapon (or weapon group) seriously impinges your character's performance. Especially when the Archer is dancing around like nothing's changed.
Solutions (that we as players can actually use):
Athletics Utility 6: Mighty Sprint. I can't say enough how great this power is. It's on every melee character I own. Move speed +4, ignore difficult terrain, AND get a +5 to athletics checks (that means jumping/climbing/swimming)? Sign me up. The new skill rules make this even better, because now you can move 9-10 squares, jumping multiple times (possibly even making acrobatics checks to jump down)
Catstep boots: Landing on your feet is important (especially when falling or jumping down a cliff).
Paladin Utility 10 (teleport CHR+1 squares). This one is critical for CHR-Paladins (since they tend to suck the most at athletics).
Have an ENC/At-Will power that lets you move and attack, or charge (even if it's just shifting a few squares) - ideally, if it lets you move it doesn't mention your SPEED (so if you're slowed, you can still move a significant distance).
Have something that Pulls/Slides 2+ (to get flying creatures or threatening reach creatures) next to you.
Wardens have it easy - several dailies give them flight for an encounter at level 9+
Your best friend in the world is any Wizard that knows Arcane Gate. This power DESTROYS anything that inhibits melee encounters (I'm looking at you stairwell in SPEC1-3 paragon, or any fight where the badguys are 15+ squares away).
Anyway - I've whined enough. This issue has bothered me since Day1. I don't blame LFR or the mod-writers - this is clearly a game-design flaw.
if you're a melee character in heavy armor (fighters and paladins) you're SCREWED. That's that -4 armor check penalty to all physical skills you're wearing.
You're particularly screwed if you're a paladin, since you aren't offered Athletics as a trained skill option at character generation (and, many paladin builds don't emphasize Strength, either).
Your best friend in the world is any Wizard that knows Arcane Gate. This power DESTROYS anything that inhibits melee encounters (I'm looking at you stairwell in SPEC1-3 paragon, or any fight where the badguys are 15+ squares away).
This is why my Wizard always has Arcane Gate available. It is a good idea to keep the melee guys happy (and to keep them between the bad guys and my squishy self).
I know there are several encounters in various modules, both new and old, that are much friendlier to ranged characters (especially strikers) than they are to melee characters. There are also encounters where either or both can survive and thrive. But it is very rare to find encounters that allow melee heroes a chance to shine over the ranged characters. Will we see some love for the fighters and barbarians in upcoming modules - or are the rumors that LFR module authors exclusively play bow rangers true?
I agree wholeheartedly. It's already being addressed in my upcoming adventure.
p.s. you're welcome.
Which one of your upcoming adventures?
I know at least two are coming out - and I heard you're doing something to make Lost Svarjet stop being Lost.I know there are several encounters in various modules, both new and old, that are much friendlier to ranged characters (especially strikers) than they are to melee characters. There are also encounters where either or both can survive and thrive. But it is very rare to find encounters that allow melee heroes a chance to shine over the ranged characters. Will we see some love for the fighters and barbarians in upcoming modules - or are the rumors that LFR module authors exclusively play bow rangers true?
I agree wholeheartedly. It's already being addressed in my upcoming adventure.
p.s. you're welcome.
Which one of your upcoming adventures?
CORE2-8 employs numerous situations where melee PCs can thrive and ranged PCs face some challenges. Nothing that screws anyone... just a more balanced field.
CORE2-10 has a mix - some encounters are more ranged-friendly, and others are more melee-friendly. They should be fun for all, though.
While I agree that combat favors ranged attackers, I feel I am playing another game than some other people in this thread. Not because the ranged attackers suffer less risks, but because of how unmobile the melee types apparently are in other peoples' games. It just does not mash with my experiences both in LFR as well as two home campaigns I play in.
Last weekend I run a couple of playtests, and the slippery frozen rivers, thick layers of snow, slippery floors, fire pits. pit traps and cliffs posed no problems to the melee types who all easily jumped over them even those wearing plate and using heavy shields (granted in the one adventure with the paladin PC only the wizard and warlock were thrown into a pit so I am not sure how the paladin would have done on the mobility level). When I ran SPEC2-1 P1 in January during a playtest, the paladin player exclaimed that this was the first time ever that he felt not being trained in Athletics was bad and this was with if I remember correctly a level 12 paladin (and even there most groups most likely would have cast a specific ritual that removed the need for any Athletics check at all). In another playtest, the 3rd level rune priest wearing scale and shield jumped overboard to swim to another ship because he was actually faster swimming than the ship he was traveling on, but even that was not particularly necessary. In my home campaign my scalemail wearing fighter is actually one of the most mobile members of the group, and I have to remove some of the powers that give him more mobility simply because I never need all four of them in a single fight anyway. And in that home campaign the DM actually knows the group is mobile, and hence often designs fights were mobility is rewarded. With that group we love crumbling walls, archers high up on ledges, mudmonsters in sticky goo and 20 feet fast flowing rivers with the McGuffin on the other side. Are the players in my region than so odd that they realize how important mobility is, that it is not particular difficult to create mobility, and how fun most of us consider it to be mobile as opposed to slugging it out at a choke point?
Mods like CORE2-3 are good examples of melee getting pretty screwed relative to ranged. It just happens a lot more, cause frankly it's a lot easier. Push 1 square and prone a ranged, see if they care. Do it to a melee, and if he doesn't have minor stand or something similar he's got a real problem. You can immobilize a ranged and then threaten him, but it's easy to avoid OAs occasionally and defenders can peel without too much difficulty. Eh.
While I agree that combat favors ranged attackers, I feel I am playing another game than some other people in this thread. Not because the ranged attackers suffer less risks, but because of how unmobile the melee types apparently are in other peoples' games. It just does not mash with my experiences both in LFR as well as two home campaigns I play in.
This will be subject to player/PC differences as well as luck on rolls. If your melee PCs all get immobilized but have teleport powers or allies that can slide/push/pull enemies back to them, there's really not much of an affect. Conversely, all the saves in the world vs. status affects won't help you if you can't roll above a 1 (true story).
My Paladin is only now really deciding to manage movement difficulties after focusing hard on status affects for a while now. As a result, iirc, when I was playing CORE 2-3 I spent a lot of time either immobilized or prone and it wasn't until I finally managed to get a Radiant Charge in that I got anywhere. Of course, it helped that one of the elementals decided to pound on me, so I didn't really mind being stuck. *shrug* I wasn't upset about it, it was just a note to self moment.
Bofors Totem (named after a British AA gun from World War Two)
Encounter: (Standard Action, range 20, RBA) A flying creature hit by this attack immediately drops half its altitude. At the start of its turn, it must make a saving throw or crash. If falling damage is called for, it is calculated based on the altitude before this attack hit.
(The Epic level version is Reliable.)
This item would become available at a level appropriate for facing many fliers. Putting one in the hands of a melee character will give him something useful to do, as well as put the enemy where he can reach them.
Feel free to PEACH this and/or suggest proper wording; I made it up as fast as I can type.
Looking at that silly wall in Paladin's Plague, while having a Wizard did simply dominate the long range encounters, that was by choice and not because our warlord couldn't have just teleported the melee ranger halfway across the map and then kill both the archer on the ground and one of the archers on the wall because he can move 40 while attacking 7 times.
Arcane Gate is horrid, there's 7 powers better than it, shoot any Wizard that still has it in Paragon.
My StarLock actually runs away from melee (but does not scream like a girl while doing it) and Eldritch Blasts the enemy from a safe distance. However, my Druid might like an "anti-aircraft gun" totem (or wand or rod or whatever YOUR character carries).
Bofors Totem (named after a British AA gun from World War Two)
Encounter: (Standard Action, range 20, RBA) A flying creature hit by this attack immediately drops half its altitude. At the start of its turn, it must make a saving throw or crash. If falling damage is called for, it is calculated based on the altitude before this attack hit.
(The Epic level version is Reliable.)
This item would become available at a level appropriate for facing many fliers. Putting one in the hands of a melee character will give him something useful to do, as well as put the enemy where he can reach them.
Feel free to PEACH this and/or suggest proper wording; I made it up as fast as I can type.
I'm confused, are you re-skinning an existing item? Or suggesting a custom item to be put into an adventure?
Because the days of fully custom items in RPGA events are long gone. If it ain't drawn from a published WotC 4E source, it ain't showing up as treasure in an LFR game.
And in regards to Arcane Gate, I still take it as a spellbook power in P2. With a couple of "swap spellbook for current power" abilities. So there! I've found occasion to use it nearly every adventure, as melee really appreciates suddenly being able to say hello to the distant Big Bad.
-karma