I have two or three D&D groups starting in the next couple of weeks and a couple of them will be doing LFR. One of our DMs is considering doing all of the LFR adventures as My Realms adventures so he can create his own over-arching story. Our concern with doing this is we don't know how treasure works in those mods. Is it the same treasure every time? Are there a number of different parcels for the GM to choose from? If so, how many different parcels are there?
Any insight would be greatly appreciated!
I have two or three D&D groups starting in the next couple of weeks and a couple of them will be doing LFR. One of our DMs is considering doing all of the LFR adventures as My Realms adventures so he can create his own over-arching story. Our concern with doing this is we don't know how treasure works in those mods. Is it the same treasure every time? Are there a number of different parcels for the GM to choose from? If so, how many different parcels are there?
Any insight would be greatly appreciated!
It's always a magic item of your level or less; that's the only magic item parcel available. This means treasure will be a bit down from normal if you do all MYREs.
It's always a magic item of your level or less; that's the only magic item parcel available.
And, in addition, the sources for those items is limited.
I've only seen MYRE1-1 and 1-2, but both of those limit items to those from the Player's Handbook series (so, nothing from the Adventurer's Vaults, Dragon, etc.)
So, yes, if you run nothing but MYRE, the PCs' magic items will very likely wind up being of lower level than they would by playing other LFR modules (or, in a true home game, in which the DM can select treasure parcels, including ones of higher level than the PCs).
So if you're doing a MYRE 'campaign' of sorts, you can have items that you find that you treat just like items in a home campaign, even so far as disenchanting and re-enchanting into other items from any other source. But be careful to track found items bought and taken quite separately since if you then take those characters to a convention or normal LFR module, or a MYRE for someone else, or even just a MYRE that is not part of that MYRE campaign, all those MYRE items go poof.
That said, note that much like every other LFR module that a group can use items explicitly found in the adventure, even disenchanting them and using them for other rituals.
So if you're doing a MYRE 'campaign' of sorts, you can have items that you find that you treat just like items in a home campaign, even so far as disenchanting and re-enchanting into other items from any other source. But be careful to track found items bought and taken quite separately since if you then take those characters to a convention or normal LFR module, or a MYRE for someone else, or even just a MYRE that is not part of that MYRE campaign, all those MYRE items go poof.
Just to clarify, are you saying the GM can allow us to find and use any items he wants to in an MYRE adventure, and he can link that MYRE to other MYRE adventures into a campaign so that we can take those items into those other adventures? And then, if we join any other LFR adventure that is not part of the campaign, all those items are lost?
As soon as that multi-round SPEC finishes, you handle treasure bundles as normal and lose access to that stuff you had.
In a MYRE _campaign_ consisting of multiple rounds of MYRE, the DM can decide how he wants to deal with treasure. One option is, say he knows he's doing 8 MYREs in a row, to give out treasure just like a home game. As you go through each round of the MYRE the DM stipulates that you still have the treasure he already gave out (delta what changes you've made to it) and you keep playing. When you finish the MYRE campaign and you wrap up, all those items poof, except for things you spend bundles on or buy. Or the DM can decide 'Every slot of this MYRE, all the items go away from each previous round'. It's entirely up to the DM what he wants to do there, but you can use treasure you find in the meantime.
If you disenchant a found item and use it to enchant something else, does that new enchanted item go poof at the end of the adventure as well?
Yep, it goes away.
Also, if you drink a lot of healing potions, the later resulting product (of drinking) goes away on its own too.
If you disenchant a found item and use it to enchant something else, does that new enchanted item go poof at the end of the adventure as well?
Being able to disenchant found magic items is allowed only in the sense that there is not an explicit rule disallowing it. Acceptance of the entire concept is certainly one which will vary from DM to DM. Do not be surprised to find DMs who consider this as trying to metagame around the intent of the rules, and reduce the base gold reward accordingly.
Beyond that, regardless of how you gain it, you cannot take a magic item out of an adventure other than through a reward bundle, even if you disenchant and enchant another item.
Being able to disenchant found magic items is allowed only in the sense that there is not an explicit rule disallowing it. Acceptance of the entire concept is certainly one which will vary from DM to DM. Do not be surprised to find DMs who consider this as trying to metagame around the intent of the rules, and reduce the base gold reward accordingly.
I'll admit I've thought it was silly when players tried to disenchant stuff at my table, especially since it costs 25g to do it, but all they use it for is to do some rituals that they otherwise don't, so I've never actually minded. Do you just reduce the amount by how much they spent on the ritual? I assume you warn them beforehand?
Do you just reduce the amount by how much they spent on the ritual? I assume you warn them beforehand?
This idea isn't one that's really gained any traction locally, so I've yet to encounter it in an actual game. I would naturally warn the PCs while they were discussing the option as to the likely consequences.
The basic issue is that it has players using a system whereby they can overcome an in-game challenge (say, bypassing a skill challenge or dealing with the results of failing one) by incurring an in-game cost, but using an out-of-game rules loophole to ensure that there is no actual in-game cost.
One solution would be to treat this as the PCs bypassing a challenge through a rules loophole rather than facing it and overcoming it, and reduce XP accordingly. That's not always going to fit, however.
The easiest solution is to just treat this as the PCs finding another way of getting more gold and adjust things accordingly. If the PCs talk their employer out of more gold up front, they find less on creatures. If they figure out some way to loot the creature's lair for a large sum of gold, they somehow lose most of it by the end of the module. If they use magic items as ritual components rather than spending their own, that all gets balanced out in the end by the DM.
If this becomes an issue, I expect the campaign's solution will be to simply avoid the problem by not giving out any items until the very last encounter. I'd really rather that not be the way things go, as that makes partial failure modules even worse, so I'd rather just stamp out the idea now.
Sad thing is, I've seen people disenchant at my tables... twice... I think, and in neither case do I remember them doing a ritual that would actually be useful, so I think both times it was just wasted effort.
(Note: My Wizard does not currently have Disenchant so the point is mute wrt the module, but this is a problem I see in the future.)
Pre-8th level Rituals are by and large useless in LFR - the ones that are particularly usefull in a home game are invalidated entirely by the rules of LFR or the core assumptions.
Enchant Magic Item - one of the most useful Rituals in a home game is rendered useless by the "buy anything" situation of LFR.
Transfer Enchantment - is rendered useless because you (nearly) always get to pick the nature of the enchanted items you find.
Disenchant Magic Item - if you use it you cannot keep the residium gained, or anything you might produce with that residium... (and some folks are suggesting you should loose more treasure...)
Phantom Steed - show me an LFR module that hasn't given the solution to the players that this ritual provides?
Fey Passage - let's see the Ritual is not available PC content, so in the module it would be actually useful the author is forced into contriving a whole skill challenge to get around you not being able to use it... and then it appears as a treasure bundle option....
8th level brings the first generically useful ritual - Raise Dead. If you have a ritual caster and they are prepared to spend the gold to raise you the first character death in a party is "free"... pity there is no way to pay that back.... (so the Raise Dead caster needs to be generous).
There are other useful rituals at higher levels, but again I just don't see them being useful... and it is even worse if you made an Alchemist as they are inherently disadvantaged far more so than a Ritual caster.
Honestly, I suspect the easiest thing is just to remember that disenchanting costs 25g and gives 20% of the value. At that point, they're paying 25g to use a ritual that's probably overpriced in the first place. They probably just want that line on their character sheet to not be useless.
Sad thing is, I've seen people disenchant at my tables... twice... I think, and in neither case do I remember them doing a ritual that would actually be useful, so I think both times it was just wasted effort.
That's pretty much the nature of LFR. The inherent assumptions (that you may not have a ritual caster at the table) and the personal, rather than party nature of gold, means that casting rituals is by-and-large a waste of time. If you need a ritual to complete a mod, a scroll will be provided (and usually the casting cost re-imbursed). If you don't *need* a ritual, using one almost never provides you with an advantage worth what you paid in component cost.
I've only once seen a ritual used effectively, although it was as a result of the PCs not having gathered enough information in a skill challenge (they succeeded in the challenge, but didn't find everything, as there were degrees of success). They therefore needed the ritual - they could have carried on without it, but could not have achieved 100% success (to say any more would spoil the mod). I allowed them to find an NPC to cast it (generously, I thought) so they had to cough up the component cost of 150gp between a party of 5 paragon level PCs. Despite the fact that P1 mods drop over 2000 gold base plus another 2000 for the 'more gold' option so 30gp is pocket change, you wouldn't believe the amount of whinging when I refused to have the NPCs reimburse them for ritual use at the end of the adventure*
*Something I've noticed about LFR in general is the personal nature of treasure makes most players *incredibly* stingy when it comes to paying out gold for anything adventure-related. 5 silver pieces for information? Not a chance. That's another reason no-one uses rituals: no one wants to pay their hard-earned gold to buy ritual books, or take them as a bundle instead of more gold, even though it doesn't cost a slot.
[Note that I have seen the Cure Disease and Remove Affliction ritual be incredibly important at higher levels. Most people do not care about the 10 minutes needed and the risk of loosing hit points to remove the Filth Fever, but when you are petrified or have a lethal disease like Mummy Rot things might change quickly.]
Ironic... my experience is the exact opposite. Most players I meet rarely care about the 10 gp per PC they might miss to cast a particular ritual or even to bribe a particular NPC. I suspect this is one of those things that specific communities can have a completely different attitude about depending on their prefered gaming styles. [Note that I have seen the Cure Disease and Remove Affliction ritual be incredibly important at higher levels. Most people do not care about the 10 minutes needed and the risk of loosing hit points to remove the Filth Fever, but when you are petrified or have a lethal disease like Mummy Rot things might change quickly.]
My cleric picked up both, along with raise dead, because, well, clerics should be able to do things like that. Haven't had to use them yet *touches wood*.
I have seen a little use out of Tenser's Floating Disc. One of my characters actually casts it pretty often now that he's high enough level just cause I like the image of him sitting on it floating around. I'd not be surprised if in late paragon or early epic that divinations become more used.
I'm surprised paragon characters would care about 30g, though. That's barely a blip on the radar at that point.
Do you just reduce the amount by how much they spent on the ritual? I assume you warn them beforehand?
The basic issue is that it has players using a system whereby they can overcome an in-game challenge (say, bypassing a skill challenge or dealing with the results of failing one) by incurring an in-game cost, but using an out-of-game rules loophole to ensure that there is no actual in-game cost.
....
The easiest solution is to just treat this as the PCs finding another way of getting more gold and adjust things accordingly. If the PCs talk their employer out of more gold up front, they find less on creatures. If they figure out some way to loot the creature's lair for a large sum of gold, they somehow lose most of it by the end of the module. If they use magic items as ritual components rather than spending their own, that all gets balanced out in the end by the DM.
It's also an out-of-games rules stipulation that says "thou shalt not get more than 150 base gold from this adventure." So, you can overcome an in-game challenge (say, pickpocketing a wealthy NPC, or convincing your employer to give you a raise) which can carry an in-game cost (getting caught, less favorable attitude by your employer) to gain more coin than than the normal rewards would be, but suffer an out-of-game rules loophole that ensures there is no actual in-game benefit.
So yeah, sometimes you might get to use rituals "at no in-game cost" because you disenchanted items found to go "over the cap." But at the same time, that artificial cap is preventing you from keeping any in-game benefits you might have gained through creative or clever play to get more gold. To me it's a wash in the end. But to say "hey, that extra gp/residuum you managed to get? not only can you not keep any of it over the treasure cap, but if you use it in-game it's gonna come out of your rewards as if you didn't get any extra" is just being punitive. All it will do is make rituals even less attractive and cool, and discourage people from trying to do interesting things to stretch a few extra coins out of an adventure.
My PCs are generally not worried by money. IC, most have a background which either means that spending money is not an issue for them (it doesn't matter, because they have enough - or think they do), or they simply place no value in it since they live in the wilds, or in one case, do not actually 'have' any money (just some kind of 'credit'). OOC, I figure the most important stuff I 'll get will be treasure bundels. There is no real point to be skimpy with money (unless you want something specific, not the case with most of my PCs).
So my character pays off the guards or the informant, or spend the rituals (Endure Elements is popular, but I also used Affect Normal Fires, Comprehend Languages, Make Whole, and Animal Messenger, and of course Hand of Fate with my Invoker).
Gomez
But at the same time, that artificial cap is preventing you from keeping any in-game benefits you might have gained through creative or clever play to get more gold. To me it's a wash in the end. But to say "hey, that extra gp/residuum you managed to get? not only can you not keep any of it over the treasure cap, but if you use it in-game it's gonna come out of your rewards as if you didn't get any extra" is just being punitive. All it will do is make rituals even less attractive and cool, and discourage people from trying to do interesting things to stretch a few extra coins out of an adventure.
What you are saying is that you think the core rewards system is too stingy--that you should be able to get the amount of treasure the DMG says a PC should get during a level plus whatever else you can talk your DM into letting you use your skills to obtain--and that the core costs for most rituals are too high for their benefit.
Whether or not either of these is true (and I'm with you on the second) is irrelevant; the core systems are what we have and use. Trying to bypass those systems by using a rules loophole is not something that should be encouraged.
If rituals aren't worth casting if you have to actually incur the component costs, then they're not worth casting. The solution isn't to figure out a loophole so that you can cast rituals for only 25 gp per module.
But at the same time, that artificial cap is preventing you from keeping any in-game benefits you might have gained through creative or clever play to get more gold. To me it's a wash in the end. But to say "hey, that extra gp/residuum you managed to get? not only can you not keep any of it over the treasure cap, but if you use it in-game it's gonna come out of your rewards as if you didn't get any extra" is just being punitive. All it will do is make rituals even less attractive and cool, and discourage people from trying to do interesting things to stretch a few extra coins out of an adventure.
What you are saying is that you think the core rewards system is too stingy--that you should be able to get the amount of treasure the DMG says a PC should get during a level plus whatever else you can talk your DM into letting you use your skills to obtain--and that the core costs for most rituals are too high for their benefit.
Whether or not either of these is true (and I'm with you on the second) is irrelevant; the core systems are what we have and use. Trying to bypass those systems by using a rules loophole is not something that should be encouraged.
If rituals aren't worth casting if you have to actually incur the component costs, then they're not worth casting. The solution isn't to figure out a loophole so that you can cast rituals for only 25 gp per module.
That's not what I understood him to be saying. What I understood him to be saying is that the adventure rewards system is an entirely out of game system anyway. It is the out of game adventure rewards system that says you can't earn any extra money by pickpocketing the nobles at the party. After all, nothing prevents you from using thievery in the game and you would have got full gold if you didn't use thievery. So, what happens to the gold you might have earned through your thievery? It is disintegrated by the out of game rewards system. So, if you found a way to get extra money in the adventure and used that extra money in the adventure, it is simply punitive to have the out of game rewards system disintegrate an amount of money equal to the extra money you earned and spent. The system does not demand that (since the system governs the acquisition of rewards that stay with your character and that is not effected). And balance does not demand it either (since rituals are almost completely useless in LFR and most of the times they aren't useless, they're required and the adventure provides you with them anyway).
You wouldn't have the out of game treasure system disintegrate 10gp off everyone's character sheets if they decided to use stealth and bluff to sneak into the Masked Lord's fundraiser dinner rather than pay the 10gp per plate entry fee. So why would you have it disintegrate 10 gp off their character sheets if they pickpocketed the masked lord and used the proceeds to fund a pair of endure elements rituals or negotiated their contract up from fixed fee for service to a cost plus basis?